Suspension Tech Part 1

I see so many questions about springs, as which is better, and what shocks to use, although I really don't get tired of helping I do think that many people have no clue what your springs and shocks are doing, nor the whole idea of what modding your suspension does, in the big picture. So this post or article is designed to provide a basic understanding of the major components in your suspension, and a checklist of what you can do to achieve your suspension goals.

So here are the main reasons I see people mod their suspension.
Section 1

1.)To just reduce fender gap, or have that lowered look
2.)To get better performance, as far as handling, and maintain good ride
3.)To go all performance with racing in mind

I think most of us fall in the middle somewhere.[FONT]

So lets start with the most important question of all.


What is the cheapest way to get my car to handle better, should I get springs?

Answer The common misconception primarily spouted by magazines and much of the industry is to throw on some lowering springs, to reduce your center of gravity, and reduce roll. While this is in part true, it hardly is the first step in creating a better handling condition.

So here is an example to thing about look at this picture-
http://www.hondavision.com/rolling.jpg
Now if you can imaging yourself in that vehicle what would be the most noticable thing to you, (besides being thrown to one side of the car)
Now look at the picture again, there is roll, and also what else would you feell or hear? Ah ha, yes the tires!! You probably would hear them screaming if they are not a sporty or soft compound tire.
So if you got in your car and drove up to 50 MPH or 90 kmh and decided that you wanted to just take a hard 90 degree turn, your first worry would be, "am I going too fat to make it." Which would result in you sliding, or spinning.

Now ask yourself this, is this sliding condition caused by the body roll?
And would having lowering springs help you from sliding?

Well the answer lies here- When you are turning the wieght of the vehicle is shifting form one side to another and that weight is being placed on the tires to maintain the cars contact with the road, which keeps you one the road, or maybe not depending on conditions.

section 2

This is what we will look at now.

1.)What brand and model tire does your car currently have?
2.)Do you currently Have suspension mods? (if so see section 4)
3.)What size is it? (Not sure read below here)
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http://www.hondavision.com/sidewall.gif
An example of tire size would be 205/65/15

Here is a detailed explanation for those who care, provided by tirerack.
If this information is not important to you skip to section 3

Calculating Tire Dimensions
[b]The first number is the width of the tire in millimeters, measured from sidewall to sidewall. To convert to inches, divide by 25.4 In the example above, the width is 185mm or 7.28".

The second number is the aspect ratio. This is a ratio of sidewall height to width. In the example above, the tire is 7.28" wide, multiply that by the aspect ratio to find the height of one sidewall. In this case, 185x0.60=111mm or 7.28"x0.60=4.36".

The last number is the diameter of the wheel in inches.

To figure the outside diameter of a tire, take the sidewall height and multiply by 2,(remember that the diameter is made up of 2 sidewalls, the one above the wheel, and the one below the wheel) and add the diameter of the wheel to get your answer.

Example...185/60R14 85H or 185/60HR14

185mm x .60=111mm x 2=222mm + 355.6mm(14")= 577.6mm or 22.74"

http://www.dezoris.com/tiredimensions.gif

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section 3
Ok so if you have a vehicle that was just bought, you should now know your tire size, now the only question is what size do you have.
Upgrading your tires is the first step in getting more grip.

If you have a 14" rim (example tire size 185-65-14-------that means you have 14" rims)
You are limited from aquiring a true performance tire, but you do have some strong choices, and getting more grip will be cheap in this size, here are some recommended tires and prices per size.

I mention tread wear and traction rating as a consideration here is the explanation for that please read!
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/utqg.htm

Size:185/65-14

1.)Bridgestone
Potenza RE92
utqg=160 Traction rating=AA
Price=$60 a tire

The RE92s are the best tire as far as dry grip and wet handling you can get on a 14" rim for a street tire, I have tested this tire on a Saturn SL2 which going from the stock rubber was amazing. The wet handling and braking were so improved it shocked me. The road holding with these tires make the car feel sure footed and turned the car from a messy squealing pig to a quiet stable, and grippy machine. I swear that you would think from driving it that there were major suspension mods that had occured. The main thing is these tires were quiet!!! And well balanced in wet and dry, where the other tires fail this tire wins, stiff side wall and well balanced

The bad part here is that the treadwear rating is less than 1/2 of the other two tires I recommend, and it is more money at about 60$ a tire.
But this is the best tire if you can't afford a rim tire upgrade or wheel tire and suspension mods.

2.)Yokohama
Avid H4
utqg=360 Traction rating=AA
Price=$50 a tire

I went from the stock Firestones on my Honda Civic to these, and although they are not nearly as quiet and composed as the RE92s they have held up through torturous conditions, bad alignments and many tests after tuning and modifying my suspension. The treadwear rating is higher. The tires make some noise when you get on them, but not excessive, you know when you are reaching your limits with these tires
Dry grip is its stronger point, where in rain they tend to hydroplane more than the RE92s, although nothing uncommon and still much better than the stock tires. These tires will roll over more than the RE92s the side wall is not reinforced as much as the RE92s, but the rolling really only disrupts higher speed manuvers where you can feel tire rolling over. On slower speed runs in a parking lot course, they roll but grip very well, until moisture comes into play. I recommend these tires to those looking for longer tire life a good dry traction.

3.)Dunlop SP Sport A2
utqg=420 Traction rating=AA
Price=$52 a tire

I finally had the chance to test these tires, on a ford focus.
These are really a nice quiet and smooth riding tire. I can't say they impressed me as far as performance goes. They were noisier than the H4s and the RE92, they gripped well, but just screamed at me. The wet traction was ok very similar if not a little better than the H4s, in damp conditions, resisted hydroplane better, but was not as grippy as the H4s and no where near as stable as the RE92s. This tire would be good if you want want a long lasting tire, but really just looking for a replacement for your stock tires with slightly more grip.

4.)Falken Azenis RS
These are fairly new tires but in the higher sizes are excellent, this would be a tire for track use, although drivable on the street, its dry drip is better than all the above, but its soft compound would take a beating for the daily driver, although providing the best dry traction here without going with a race tire. This tire comes in 195-60-14 so you may have to consider strongly if you wanted to throw this on your stock rims in 14" do to some issues with speedometer readings do the the lessened diameter of the tire, but I throw this out there for someone who just wants to go auto crossing and just needs some race tires that will not bump you out of your street class. This is a tire that will not resist hydroplaning very well the evacuation design is not that hot, although this is debated, between a few people.



Now if you have 15-18" rims then the world opens up to you as far as tire sizes, which if you want opions feel free to ask. Some quick recommendations are.

Bridgestone highest performance from top to bottom
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Potenza S03 Pole Position
http://www.dezoris.com/bridge1.jpg

Potenza S-02
http://www.dezoris.com/bridge2.jpg

Potenza RE730
http://www.dezoris.com/bridge3.jpg

Potenza RE-950
http://www.dezoris.com/bridge4.jpg




Kuhmo
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ECSTA Supra 712
http://www.dezoris.com/kuhmo1.jpg


Yokohama
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AVS Sport
http://www.dezoris.com/yoko1.jpg

AVS Intermediate
http://www.dezoris.com/yoko2.jpg

A520
http://www.dezoris.com/yoko3.jpg


Sumitomo
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HTR Z II
http://www.dezoris.com/sumi1.jpg

Falken
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Azenis RS
http://www.dezoris.com/azenis1.jpg

Any questions on sizing and tire recommendations based on driving style and goal please post.
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section 4

If you have a modified suspension and you already have a so called good tire. Then there is more at play here than just tires.

I would still consider upgrading tires before you considering these steps below if you suspect wear or you are riding on your average all season tires.

Tires that I have tested that I feel are not adequate, for a modified suspension

Toyo FZ4
Toyo T1S (Dry Only)
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Nitto NT555R (drag only)
Nitto NT555 (drag only)
Nitto NT505 (street dry only)

Not many people who are looking for handling like the Nitto tire line do to its bad balance of wet/dry capabilities and poor tire life.

If you are a racer and would like to add to this list of tires not cut out for autox or good balance that are supposed high performance tires please post.
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If you have dropped your car then you have a few things to look at.

1.)Springs
Springs control the cars loading and unloading.
They are the load bearing members in a doublewishbone suspension and in a suspension using Macpherson struts.
What this means that the the springs on your car have a specific rate at how they compress or control load.

Lets say your springs have a spring rate of 300, this would mean for every 300lbs of load they compress 1 inch. The higher the spring rate the stiffer more resistand to compression the spring is.
Your lower rate springs are usually longer using a typical shock or strut to dampen them, for a softer ride. When you hear that phrase, this car has improved handling do to higher spring rates.... now you know what it is.

Here is a detailed explanation of spring rates by IntegraR0064

What a spring rate is can be seen by hooke's law: F = kx. F is the force pushing/pulling on the spring, k is the spring rate, and x is how much the spring is stretched/compressed from it's natural length. After your basic algebra, you get that spring rate = F/x ...or force required to deform the spring by a unit length. A typical spring rate might be 300 lb/in, meaning if you push on the spring with a 300 lb force, it'll compress one inch. If you push with 600 lbs, it'll compress two inches, etc.

In summary.... a larger spring rate means you have to push or pull on the spring harder to get it to deform.

If you had an infinitely high spring rate, it'd be like you just had an indeformable steel bar for a spring. When you hit a bump, the suspension would not absorb any shock...the entire car (and you) would. If you had a really really low spring rate.....the spring would compress all the way just from the weight of the car....and you'd just be riding on your bumpstops all the time....getting the same effect.

With real available spring rates for your car....a really low one means that your car would bounce a lot on every little bump. Higher ones (i.e. those pesky cheap coilover sleeves) can get to the point where your suspension barely bounces over anything.

Higher spring rates need more dampening too....if you run typical coilover sleeves with your stock shocks, your shocks will blow.

If you're talking about tuning your car's handling behavior by messing with having different spring rates in front and rear... some people do it, but it's not really something I'd recommend. It's a little unpredictable and tuning oversteer/understeer is better left to sway bars and such, as well as your shocks.

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1.)Shocks/Struts
As quoted By Texan
SHOCK ABSORBER
This is what controls spring movement. What is almost always used on our cars are mono-tube hydrolic shocks, so you don't need to know about anything else. A shock absorber's job is to absorb shock (duh!), which means that it dissipates spring energy. Hydrolic shocks do this by moving a small piston with orifices in it through a viscous oil, providing the energy damping needed to control spring movement. The size of the orifices determines the resistance to movement the shock will have, and adjustable shocks have adjustable sized orifices to offer a range of resistance to motion. Since a car's coil spring can be likened to a big slinky, you can imagine that the same way a slinky bounces off one step and jumps to another, where it compresses again and then jumps away once more. A spring will do this just the same, causing the suspension to compress & rebound over and over again after hitting a single bump. The primary job of the shock absorber is to prevent this cycle, and if it's properly matched to the spring's rate it will only allow this to happen once. This is what keeps the tire in good contact with the ground, so you can imagine the importance of getting the shock stiffness right for your springs. The secondary job of the shock is to add some resistance to motion in the suspension, much like the spring does. There's no need to get deep into that yet, just know the shock has an effect on both ride quality and performance.

ADJUSTABLE SHOCK ABSORBER
Adjustable shocks allow you to change their stiffness. Now that you know how important it is to match the shock settings to the spring in order to keep the tire in good contact with the ground, you can also understand how it's control over the spring movement will affect ride quality. Since the shock absorber has some level of control over how quickly the suspension can be compressed (because it adds additional resistance to the whole system), you can imagine that making the shock stiffer will have the same overall effect on ride quality as stiffening the spring. There are two main types of adjustable shocks: those that adjust stiffness of the compression stroke only and those that adjust stiffness on both compression and rebound strokes. It's not important to go over the different types of desgins here, but know that most shocks either only adjust compression stiffness (called single-adjustable shocks) or they adjust both compression & rebound at the same time (called double-adjustable shocks). This means that there is no way to adjust the bias between compression & rebound stiffness on double-adjustables, which is of principle design concern to shock manufacturers because it's so easy to get the bias wrong. There are indepently double-adjustable shocks which allow you to change this bias, but I wouldn't recommend them for the average enthusiast. You will probably just end up making the suspension damping worse than it was stock. Recommendations here are usually to get the double adjustable shocks that control both compression & rebound (but not independently), and that's probably the best idea for the average enthusiast.

COILOVER SUSPENSION
a coilover suspension is simply one that has the shock body located within the space inside the coil spring (as installed on the car). This is the best design possible because the shock is moving in the same plane as the spring, which ensures that it can most accurately control spring movement, plus it's usually the lightest. In our double wishbone suspension systems, the shock's only job is to control spring movement, so it makes sense that Honda equips all of their performance cars with coilover systems. The popular catch phrase "coilover" is only applied to systems that are sold complete with both shocks & springs (and sometimes upper mounts), but the truth is that every spring or shock you install on the car will function in a coilover system. Here's the basic breakdown as far as you are concerned: Honda uses almost exclusively the coilover setup on their current cars. Aftermarket spring manufacturers like Ground Control simply one-up their design by adding height adjustability to the system. This comes in the form of threaded shock bodies and adjustable spring perches, we generally refer to them as "sleeved springs". There are also shock manufacturers like Koni who one-up Honda in the shock absorber department by offering adjustable shocks, which are adjusted usually by a knob somewhere on the shock body or rod. Then at the top shelf of coilover designs, you have companies like Tein who one-up everybody else by offering a complete & ready to install coilover package that is adjustable in several different ways (height adjust, rebound adjust, compression adjust, whatever they throw in) and comes as a properly matched system. These are the systems we refer to as "true" or "complete" coilovers. Usually these shocks are rebuildable and offer custom valving options, and the company usually has a variety of spring rates available for you. If these are the best systems, it's simply because they are the most complete. The only system that offers a better garaunteed match between spring & shock are usually the stock units (which of course are not stiff enough and have no adjustability). What I am getting at here is that just because you get springs from one manufacturer and shocks from another does not mean that you won't have a kickass ride, it just means that there is more possiblity of mismatching one part to another. As we have pointed out many times, the simple Eibach Pro Kit & Koni adj. shocks combo seems to whoop ass on many other street setups without costing an arm and a leg (relatively speaking).
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Holy Shit!!!! You tired yet? :)

Ok so the main difference between shocks and struts? Really, not much they really are the same things dampers, the only really difference is in what application they are used. In a double wishbone suspension shocks dampen the springs and the springs do the load bearing.

In a Macpherson setup the strut will so some of the load bearing as well as dampening the spring.

People commonly ask "why can't I use lowering springs with higher rates on stock shocks?"

If you have learned anything from this lesson, you will now know that the stock shock is valved to dampen a specfic spring rate usually that spring it was designed to work with, by puting a high rate shorter spring on it, it causes two major problems resulting in failure.

1.)Decreased travel (The shock no longer can travel up and down,"compression-rebound" to dampen the spring properly which means you shock is useless, and is the spring is just bouncing up and down.

2.)Over work (the shocks oil inside and valving cause it just bounce and thrash about causing bubbling of the oil and extensive pressure usually causing leaky seals. Since the shock was not valved to dampen a higher rate spring, it just is working many times harder. Basically certain shocks are tuned on a shock dyno to effectively tune them for specific spring rates, our general recommendations on shock spring combos are based off of this. Combos that will play togther and, where the shock is designed to control the springs movment. When the shock cant control the movement of the spring we can see shock failure. which means you are driving a car without shocks :) This is why we STRESS USE AFTERMARKET SHOCKS WITH LOWERING SPRINGS!
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Ok now the most important part of setting up a modified suspension is alignments.

section 5

Just for all of you, who wonder


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"Should I get an alignment or not after lowering, or any other suspension mods."
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Well some will argue, that some drops don't effect the camber, or toe. So you don't need to get one.

Lowering the car does the following
1.)creates more negative camber
2.)Can change your toe angle (usually toe in)
Putting on a wider tread width tire on (195 to 205) will
1.)Change Toe angles

Now there is a specified range for these readings.
Such as the Civic for example (factory ranges)
Front camber can be from +1 degree to -1 degree
Rear camber can be from 0 degree to -2 degrees
So who knows what the factory reading were?
What if they were on the borderline lets say the front camber was at
-.8 degree, that would mean lowering it a fraction, 1", would put it over
-1 degree. Then on the other hand is could work to your advantage.
But usually your toe is messed up to which can cause very odd handling problems, and is harder to notice.
So I hope you can see my point.
So when the alignment guy asks what settings you want, you would normally say
"within factory specs"
Well for all you Civic riders here is a modified range, something I did not have when I did my alignment.

Front Camber/TOE Range for modified suspension
Front Camber(in degrees)
Range (-1.8 degrees to 0 degree) the 0 setting will offer longer tire life
Front Toe
Range (-0.02 to 0.08)

Rear Camber/TOE Range for modified suspension
Rear Camber(in degrees)
Range (-2.0 to -.5)(Tire wear is a consideration when more negative camber is added (see below)
Rear Toe
Range (+0.04 degrees to -0.15)
So the point? At least have your alignment checked after suspension mods.

These ranges have been created for the tuner who wants a balance of performance and practicality.
These setting are also for the hard street driver and semi-autoxers not for people slamming their car. Those dropping their car more than three inches
may need more camber, depending on the offset of the rims, so rubbing does not occur, but camber out of those ranges
supplied can cause premature tirewear. These settings take in account the factory range while giving the alignment tech
a new guidline, instead of the one he looks at for a stock suspension.
These settings are still withing factory spec, so treawear is not a consideration.


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What's toe in toe out?
These pictures are very extreme, usually toe in/out is not visable by the eye, even then it can cause odd handling and poor tire wear.
http://www.dezoris.com/TOEIN.jpg
With the wheel center the wheel toes inward away from the centerline.

http://www.dezoris.com/TOEOUT2.jpg
With the wheel center the wheel toes outward away from the centerline.
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What is camber?

Camber is illustrated by this picture, where this picture shows a positive angle. the reverse angle would be a negative angle, and these angles are best measured and ajusted professionally.
http://www.dezoris.com/camberangle.gif
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What is Caster?

here is a piece from Motor Age describing it perfectly-
http://www.dezoris.com/caster.gif

Caster refers to the tilt angle of the front spindles, as viewed from the side of the vehicle. It involves the relationship between the top of the spindle and the bottom of the spindle at its attachment and pivot points. Imagine a front suspension with upper and lower control arms. As viewed from the side of the vehicle, the caster angle refers to the location of the upper ball joint to that of the lower ball joint. If you draw an imaginary line from the lower ball joint to the upper ball joint, that angle represents caster. In the case of a strut-equipped front suspension, you can imagine a line drawn from the lower ball joint to the top of the strut tower.

When the top of the spindle is set back (placing the upper ball joint closer to the rear of the vehicle, with the lower ball joint closer to the front of the vehicle), this is called a positive caster angle. All vehicles use a positive caster angle.

The caster angle -- the reason we have an offset angle between upper and lower spindle points -- exists to allow optimum steering and handling for a given vehicle. A positive caster angle is used to allow predictable steering of the vehicle. If the caster was zero with the upper ball joint exactly above the lower ball joint, steering would be erratic, the vehicle would be very hard to control and the front wheels would wander all over the road. By creating a backward 'lean' (a positive caster angle), the vertical travel of the front wheels is 'dampened.' The more positive the caster angle, the more controllable the vehicle is at higher speeds. As caster is lessened (closer to zero), the vehicle's front wheels will react faster to steering input, but highway stability will be decreased.

Caster settings on many vehicles are fixed and can't be easily adjusted independently. Replacement of damaged parts is commonly required in some cases. Front double-A-arm suspensions allow easy caster adjustment at the upper control arm fulcrum shaft with the use of shims. Strut suspensions may be adjusted through use of camber/caster top tower plates.
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Here are some frequently asked questions

Q"you mentioned these specs are also for the autocrosser and street enthusiest but the question is
are these settings practical for street driving? how about tire wear? "
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A:These settings are still within factory spec, so tire wear is not that much of
a consideration. But, having an allignment before and after every autox can be hard so these settings are the best for both worlds.
Now of course you can go with -3 degrees in the rear and -2 in the front, which is
more extreme, more suited for autox but on the street you will wear down your tires.
So that is why the settings i posted are optimal for both, the "middle ground" for most Hondas. Please check your factory alignments, and post up if you want recommendations

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Q"i have a question while we r on the subject of suspension. anyone who can clarify for me please do.
when u go to a dealer service shop or a shop in general and have an alignment,
it is my understanding they are adjusting your camber. so if they were not good at their job they
could mess up your camber, and it can be corrected. so what is the purpose of a camber correction kit
when u get lowering springs. why can't you just have your camber corrected
through an alignment from shop? i apologize if this is stupid, but it just makes sense to me. "
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A:Camber, kits are generally for those who have modified suspensions, namely for those that have their car dropped.
When this occurs (lowering) the factory adjustment may no longer get the vehicles camber and toe within desired range.

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Q"so ok you do'nt need a kit to adjust TOE in/out on all four wheels right??? BUT for the camber.. you must buy a kit.. or at least only for the front..
the rear you can kind of shim it out with some washers to some extent right?????So here's my big question... the factory camber specs on a factory
non-lowered 2000 civic (or 96+) i seen that the rear actually has negative camber
... and the front is basically straight. so does it mean we have to set the rear
to have "some" negative camber when we lower it?? like don't get rid of all
the negative camber in the rear since the rear had it at stock?"
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A:Yes the stock settings for the rear can be from 0 degrees to -2 degrees,
so if you drop it you have to watch for the tires going over that 2 degree mark.
You can effectively adjust toe regardless of lowering (w/ or w/o a kit)
You can use washers in the rear, that is true, many do it with good results,
but it is nice to have a kit that can be easy to work with that takes the guess work out of,
say "we need three more washers" Caster is something that can't be messed with unless using a plate on top of the shock tower to adjust it.
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Part 2 will cover adjustable suspensions and corner weighing the suspension.

If you need any shock/spring combo recommendations please post.

are we allowed to post in this thread? oh well, delete my post if im not.
i thought that lowering you car gives u a better ride, not just looking good.
getting lowered springs may help, but you'll definitely wear out the factory shocks sooner.
getting a castor/camber kit would be good too.
thats my 2 cents. feel free to disagree with me, its ok, i wont take it to heart :D

I do most of my of my Civic related stuff at
www.dezoris.com/index.php
You can look me up there as well. If I am not around

Originally posted by jOYRiDe
are we allowed to post in this thread? oh well, delete my post if im not.
i thought that lowering you car gives u a better ride, not just looking good.
getting lowered springs may help, but you'll definitely wear out the factory shocks sooner.
getting a castor/camber kit would be good too.
thats my 2 cents. feel free to disagree with me, its ok, i wont take it to heart :D

The best part is I know you did not read through the thread if you answered that :)

You say the rear camber is up to negative 2 degrees. That is not correct. According to the Helms manual, its -0.10 plus or minus one degree. Negative 2 degrees in the rear will eat your tires quick.

Originally posted by Dezoris
The best part is I know you did not read through the thread if you answered that :)
im sorry, it was just too long!!!

Originally posted by CivicEx95
You say the rear camber is up to negative 2 degrees. That is not correct. According to the Helms manual, its -0.10 plus or minus one degree. Negative 2 degrees in the rear will eat your tires quick.

I guess Honda and Helms have differnt ideas. (see alignment spec sheet)
anything else?

http://www.dezoris.com/alignment.jpg

Originally posted by jOYRiDe

im sorry, it was just too long!!!

Sure its too long but if you are in the suspension forum and you want to learn about stuff, what do you want it to be?

Originally posted by Dezoris

I guess Honda and Helms have differnt ideas. (see alignment spec sheet)
I guess so, but think about it, thats crazy, 2 degrees? Anybody else agree with me that's going to wear your rear tires down quick? If 2 degrees is not good for the front, then why would it be for the rear?

Heres the scan from the Helms manual, and its -0.2 degrees.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/603912Untitled-1.jpg

Front wheel drive cars obviously steer and accelerate with the front wheels, camber up front will change stability and steering response.

Too much negative camber up front can cause, poor steering response and decreased high speed straight line stabilty because of reducing the tires contact patch with the road. Where as in the rear the tires are fixed (steering response is not effected), and also should be slightly toed in to incourage increased grip and straight braking.

We could argue the factory settings all day, the fact is that I don't recommend the factory range when doing an alignment.

The fact that Honda allows for the fact that you can have -2.0 of camber in the rear also means that they set the front tires with postive camber, and usually when rotating the tires as they say will even out tire wear based on their testing. That is why they offer these ranges.

Steering effort is up to the driver, more neagtive camber can also mean loss of traction, remember that the tire rolls when weight is transfered, which is another factor, too much camber can cause the tire to roll off its contact patch which is worse than having postive camber settings in many cases.

engsr wrote on 03-19-2002 03:08 PM:
Hey Dezoris:

I was wondering if you could give me some advice on which suspension set-up i should consider.

I have a 2001 Integra GS-R. Currently, the only suspension mod i'm running with is the Type-R strut bars, front and rear. I am considering the Type-R rear sway bar down the road, but not just yet.

Now, for springs, I was advised to go with the Eibach Pro-Kit or Sportline, for warranty purposes. I want to have a good drop (ala Sportlines) but a friend told me that the Pro-Kit is better suited to the stock set-up (shocks, camber, etc.) With the Sportlines, I'll need to correct the camber and new shocks (eventually), and I was thinking along the Tokico Illuminas, but I'm reading that the Koni Yellows are a good choice as well. But, I'm also considering the Ground Control sleeves, but I have to check to see if those won't void my warranty.

I'm not into racing or anything of the sort - I simply want my car to have better handling. I read the entire thread (yes, every bit of it), and I am going to upgrade my tires to the Kumho Esctas 712 when the stock Michelins wear out.

I also heard that the sleeves give a more bouncier ride than springs, which is why I'd prefer the springs over sleeves. Plus, since I'm in Canada and road salt is everywhere during the winter, I don't want the sleeves to seize on me.

So, which combination (of Sportline/Pro-Kit/Ground Controls with Illuminas/Yellows) would be better suited for my needs, considering all of the above.

Thanks for your help and time. It's truly appreciated.

Bryan.


Ok it is a lot about price. A solid basic smooth riding suspension at the very minimum would be the prokit on the stock shocks. The prokits spring rates are ver similar to stock, although slightly shortened in length which would be the only trouble when mating them. Only since the travel is less and the springs are just a bit stiffer it tends to compensate. So this would be the cheapest way to get a slight drop, maybe a little better handling or reduced roll, without going with a camber kit new shocks, etc. As you read, I can't guarentee that your factory alignment is in the middle of the range, so lowering it make put you into negative camber that may be out of spec, but not by much, this is just the risk you take. Honestly, it probably won't be an issue, but don't be shocked if it is.

If you are doing the work yourself keep im mind if you are doing just the springs and want to add shocks later it will be just the sam amount of labor as before, so it is recommeded you do both at once, unless you are strapped for cash.

The prokit would be good on the Illuminas, these are your lest aggressive adjustable shock that is a consideration, they will handle and dampen the prokit very very well. The warranties on these shocks are very iffy, usually any type of drop voids them, that is why we say if you have the cash it is good to do a threaded body shock with springs designed for it, that way the shock was dyno'd to match the rates of the springs so there is no question "will the shock hold up" It is warrantied.

So keep an eye on that so the Illuminas and the prokit are a good combo for that reason, in my opinion and others.

If you want the sportlines, then be prepared to use a shock like the KYB AGX or Koni Yellow, or even the Bilstein Sport, if you want the self adjusting route. Mainly for warranty purposes and if you are going with more agressive spring rates then having a shock to control them is important, the KYB is a good shock for that spring, being that the sportlines are not full race springs, the Konis are kind overkill but then again it is about how much cash do you want to spend?

Consider a camber kit for the front when going with the sportlines as well.

Also if anyone wants to pipe in about the troubles with sleeved coilovers on a regular shock body be my guest, my opinion as stated by

IntegraR0064 is that
Higher ones (i.e. those pesky cheap coilover sleeves) can get to the point where your suspension barely bounces over anything.


This is true, I don't know how many horror stories I hear about the Skunk 2 sleeves. Basically a race spring on a perch supposedly designed to give a out of the box shock adjustablity?

Nah, that is crap, you want a race spring with adjusabilty you buy a threaded body shock designed to dampen the spring it was dyno'd for. And that is really all there is too it in my opinion, just as simple as throwing lowering springs with a higher rate on stock shocks or shock you have no clue on what specs they were designed for.

This statement upsets people who just want to drop their car and raise it in winter or whatever the reason. Without the cost.
Well I am a suspension geek so I always ask,
"How much is your suspension worth?"
To me it is how save I am when wiping to work or dodging a deer on the road or avoiding an accident, this is why I don't take chances and make sure my setup is going to keep the tires glued to the road.

If i got the Sprint springs for a 1994 accord. that lower it 2.25 inches, can i use stock shocks, and if not, what type of shocks would be best suited for the springs.

thanks

That's a really good post, Dezoris. :) I'll have to go back and re-read any parts I may have skipped over, but the tire part was very intetresting, and something I can 100% contest to. About a year ago, I did a test drive for Bridgestone, where I got to drive 3 indentically equipped BMW 325i's (with the traction control tunrned OFF) around a test course for 3 laps. Each car was fitted with a different set of tires. What made the test interesting, was the COMPLETE course was watered down to simulate just rained on conditions. One set performed horribly, slidding all over the place, while the other 2 performed outstandingly. It turned out the tires that held best, were a set of new RE950 Bridgestones, the set that performed almost indentically, was a set of 50% worn down RE950s, that had also been oven baked to speed up age wear. The inferior set that slid around, was a set of Michelin XGT-H4's. I was amazed at just how well the Bridgestones stuck to the ground, and with a wet surface at that. It was hard to get them to slid, even if trying, I felt as if the car was on a slot track, it was that good. Yeah the BMW is one of the best handling sedans, but when fitted with certain tires, it gets poor handling performance. The 50% worn RE950's handled almost as good as the brand new set, which shocked the heck out of me as well. I was very impressed. :)

Great post Dezoris, I have to go back later and re-read some of the stuff a skimmed through. Im anxious to see part 2 about corner wieghting, etc. I like my set up right now (APEXi WS, ST rear sway bar, front strut bar), and Im just looking for ways to optimize it further.

Oh, and about the Helms specs, it says within .2 degrees, but it also says plus or minus 1 degree....so thats a little closer (1.2) to the 2 degree figure you gave, by the way, where exactly did you get that number from?

Honda.

ah yes

Nice post, i feel greatly educated in the shock/strut/tire department now.
~bows~ to Dezoris . Maybe someday you can help me find a good combo for my RSX
:smoker:

wow, great post!! i learned more than i was interested in but thats cool. nothing wrong with knowing more.

:smoka:
Dezoris
that was a very educational post. THANK YOU!!! You have helped me make sense of alot. I read the entire post (for almost 35 min) and I have a few questions.

1) the tire size 205/65/15. if the 1st figure is the tire width. There are tire sizes ranges from 185 to 285. If I increase my tire with it means I run the risk of my tire rubbing against the wheel well. Does this affect alignment.

2) The back of my car sits low noticably. Is this a problem with the shocks or springs?

3) I want to purchase a coil over-spring and shock combo to try and fix the problem, which is better, koni, kyb, TOKICO or Bilstein ?

4) are there any manufacturers that sell doouble adjustable besides Tein?

Sorry for all the questions but after I read your post you fueled lots of questions. These are just a few.


:sun:

Originally posted by zaphanathpaneah
:smoka:
Dezoris
that was a very educational post. THANK YOU!!! You have helped me make sense of alot. I read the entire post (for almost 35 min) and I have a few questions.

[quote][b]1) the tire size 205/65/15. if the 1st figure is the tire width. There are tire sizes ranges from 185 to 285. If I increase my tire with it means I run the risk of my tire rubbing against the wheel well. Does this affect alignment.

If you increase the tire width you should decrease the section diameter (or the sidewall height) to keep the overall diameter the same or your speedo and odometer will be off. But no tire sizes will not change alignment.

2) The back of my car sits low noticably. Is this a problem with the shocks or springs?

Most-likely sagging springs, blown shocks or you have something heavy in the trunk.

3) I want to purchase a coil over-spring and shock combo to try and fix the problem, which is better, koni, kyb, TOKICO or Bilstein ?

Well it depends what you are planning for the car. If you are competitive (autocross or road racing) Konis are the best. Next I would say Tokico Illuminas, then Bilstein then KYBs.

4) are there any manufacturers that sell doouble adjustable besides Tein?

You can get Konis revalved to be double adjustables, but most people have no use for a double adjustables. I was thinking of getting my Konis revalved to get an edge for autocross, but cost wise it wouldn't be worth it.

Plus Nice of you to revive a 1.5 month old thread :)

:smoka:
Dude tanks for t he info. To reply to your post:

2) The only thing I have inthe trunk is a full spare and a 10" sub in a box. Or and sme tools. I will try to empty the trunk and see if it makes a difference. If the average rate of shocks is a 300lb i don't have 300 lbs of stuff in the trunk to cause my back to sag 2 - 4 inches.

3) I don't intend to race the max. I just want to dress it a bit. So I want stiffer shocks to prevent all the bounce I get now but still want a smooth ride. Any suggestions? I like koni's but should I get the special or sport? Are there coil overs setups that keep the car at stock height, then if I decide to lower it later I can?

4) Perhaps I don't need the double adjustable after all. So for my street car that will never make it to a track or race you suggest stock springs with after market shocks?

:bandit:

2) The only thing I have inthe trunk is a full spare and a 10" sub in a box. Or and sme tools. I will try to empty the trunk and see if it makes a difference. If the average rate of shocks is a 300lb i don't have 300 lbs of stuff in the trunk to cause my back to sag 2 - 4 inches.

Well I know my 10" subwoofer in the box might lower my car about 1/4". And depending on how many tools you have back there can also lower it. HOw old is the car? I would say the springs and/or shocks are blown.

3) I don't intend to race the max. I just want to dress it a bit. So I want stiffer shocks to prevent all the bounce I get now but still want a smooth ride. Any suggestions? I like koni's but should I get the special or sport? Are there coil overs setups that keep the car at stock height, then if I decide to lower it later I can?

You cannot have the best of both worlds (I wish). If you lower the car you are going to get a stiffer ride, because you have to increase the spring rates if you lower your ride. And if you get stiffer spring rates you need better shocks to control the springs.

4) Perhaps I don't need the double adjustable after all. So for my street car that will never make it to a track or race you suggest stock springs with after market shocks?

:bandit:

I know plenty of people with stock springs and aftermarket shocks (since I autocross). You will see better handling with stock springs on aftermarket shocks, than aftermarket springs on stock shocks.

:smoka:
thanks for the reply. You know i was thinking of what you said. i took the book out and the little tools I had......not much difference. The only thing I did not tak out was the spare which is a FULL 15" tire (not the donut). Perhaps the shocks are gone or the springs. If I attempt to do anything I want the back and front to be the same so I will go with all new springs and shocks. However back to my original question......which setup. I want a spring and shock match from the same manufacturer. I like koni but they don't make coil overs. I want the stock height for now and when summer comes I will lower it 1.5 - 2 inches. Pleeeeeeeeeease someone tell me which is the best or what is working for them. I know this is a honda forum and I don't own a honder.....yet :sun: but I will post this to the Nissan forum later. thanks dude.
You guys rock.
Z - :bandit:

Originally posted by zaphanathpaneah
:smoka:
thanks for the reply. You know i was thinking of what you said. i took the book out and the little tools I had......not much difference. The only thing I did not tak out was the spare which is a FULL 15" tire (not the donut). Perhaps the shocks are gone or the springs. If I attempt to do anything I want the back and front to be the same so I will go with all new springs and shocks. However back to my original question......which setup. I want a spring and shock match from the same manufacturer. I like koni but they don't make coil overs. I want the stock height for now and when summer comes I will lower it 1.5 - 2 inches. Pleeeeeeeeeease someone tell me which is the best or what is working for them. I know this is a honda forum and I don't own a honder.....yet :sun: but I will post this to the Nissan forum later. thanks dude.
You guys rock.
Z - :bandit:

Konis don't make coilovers but you can match them with coilovers. I've been using custom rates from Ground Control or you can order their special edition coilovers.

im looking at coilover kits for my saturn sc, and i was reading some threads that say "make sure you get a true kit and not just coilover spring sleeves" what is the difference, cus i saw some Arospeed coilover kits for 239 on jc whitney. please help before i mess up my car.

im looking at coilover kits for my saturn sc, and i was reading some threads that say "make sure you get a true kit and not just coilover spring sleeves" what is the difference, cus i saw some Arospeed coilover kits for 239 on jc whitney. please help before i mess up my car.

Coilover spring sleeves are what it basically is. A separate part of the shock. Whereas a "TRUE" coilover system the shock and coilover are integrated togther.

This is a sleeve:
http://www.autodynamic.com/transfer/images/vis/vis_suspension.gif

THis is a complete kit:
http://www.autodynamic.com/transfer/images/suspension/suspension_spec_RM.jpg

In my personal opinion there is no real difference except price. I've been running Ground Control coilover sleeves on Koni Yellows and i know plenty of other competitors in my class who do the same.

ok, i have a 93 DX coupe with 18" inch rims, a camber kit, and cheap ass APC coilovers (which i think seized up on me this winter) and i want to lower it as much as it can be while still being drivable with such large rims. what i would like to know is...since it was posted that stock springs with aftermarket struts would be a good combo, would this work for the 18s or should i get both aftermarket springs and struts? what would be best for me to choose? i am just going for the lowered look and i dont want the tires (Kumho Ecsta Supra 225/40/ZR18's) to be slamming into the fender every time i go over a bump. i know that with the 18s, the tires probably will rub a bit anyways but i dont want to ride the fenders ya know? also, in alot of magazines and shows, ive seen civics with 18s and 19s that are lowered and either have the wheels 'tucked' or lowered enough so that there is really no space between the tire and the fender. is this drivable or just for show and since i have a camber kit, what is a good setting, if any, so that i can have just the top of the wheel (negative camber i think?) tuck a little into the fender so that it doesnt rub on the tires and wear them down? LOL ok ok one last question and then im done............since the coilovers i have now have seized, how do i prevent new ones from doing the same? also just in case this info helps......i removed my back seats and the spare tire and jack for weight reduction and i plan on leaving them out so i can redo the interior (didnt know if a weight reduction would alter the spring/stut setup cause of less weight) and i also plann on shaving the lip on the inside of the fenders so maybe that will reduced the tires from rubbing as much and damaging the rubber thankx ahead of time for help