Part 3: Which motor will be our weapon of choice?

Here's the rundown so far:
$20,000 to start

1997 EX Coupe $4350
Title transfer and other expenses $150

we have $15,500 and 5 money spending stages after this

choose wisely.

which motor and why? We are talking about buying MOTOR ONLY not the parts for it. Just motor. B16, B18, H22, whatever.. just motor.

Don't forget prices and webaddresses so everyone can see.

have fun

get a 97' h22a w/ 96 ecu, it cost just as much as a b18c1, but it is bigger and better
http://www.specjdm.com/motors.html

or

it might be even cheaper here

http://www.hondamotorsonline.com

Which engine has the best torque line without having the wieght problems of the lude? The B20

Which engine has the best high end ability without spending $6000? The B16.

B16 + B20 = Good.

I'm all for the CRVTEC. Now, can we come up with a concise figure for the cost of that?

I say B16, or B18. I think the H22 would throw the balance of and screw up turning.

you guys are right...the h22a will cause too much trouble for what it can do.

I agree with the CR-Vtec

Import Builders will build and ship a fully loaded motor
for either NA or FI setup but you have to email
sales to find out how much:
[email protected]

The site is :
http://www.importbuilders.com/crated_motors.htm

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer
Which engine has the best torque line without having the wieght problems of the lude? The B20

Which engine has the best high end ability without spending $6000? The B16.

B16 + B20 = Good.

I'm all about the b20+b16 turned for FI.. a guy at a car shop nearby is running a B20 block with B16 head and greddy turbo.. He raped a 5.0 with a 175 shot of nos 4 times (with breaks inbetween each race.. 2 differnt drivers on the 5.0). The b20 w/b16 head runs as hard as the b18c5 but cost a good 2k less (or maybe even less than that if you don't get custom work done). my vote goes CRVtec

CRVTEC is awesome, and a little more reliable than LSVTEC. Although, it's only truly reliable at 2.1L with the endyne custom-lenght rods..... or else the R/S is all outta wack....

Unfortunately, the H22 would be to powerful for the civic, understeering would be a problem, and not to mention the weight of the engine. I would go with the B18c:D That is just my personal preference...

CRVTEC makes H22 power from a B block....

More powerful than a B18c, less weight than an H22. the best of both worlds. And it's actually pretty reliable if done right, as opposed to MOST LSVTEC setups...

b18c1

I agree with madtown, keep it simple stupid, B18...Frankenstien's scare me! :D

H22a.

CRVTEC = H22 power from a B block, B18c reliability (as long as you do it right... aka use Endyne custom lenght rods, ITR oil pump, squirters etc)

Downside- $$$

Upside- Insane all-motor OR turbo power.

B18C1

I think we should keep this simple

Since it is a car based on a newbie owner.

a b18c with a b16 head stroked to 2 liters

My vote goes to the b18c (does a 6th gen civic need obdII though) or b16a from www.geocities.com/jdmwholesaleltd/jdm-b18.htm. ITs cheap at 2800.

"All swaps come complete with engine (motor, tranny, alternator, distributor, throttle body,intake and exhaust manifolds, p/s pump, and a/c pump (if was present original motor), ECU, harness to main plugs, OEM axles, shift linkage, and mounts."

"Prices include shipping to your nearest port, or depot if you are inland. Allow 22-34 days for shipping. If you prefer, we can air freight for an extra $500. Please note we don’t make profit on shipping costs. Air freight takes approximately 4-10 days. There will be a $98 documentation charge for sea freight, and there may also be small port charges. Expect a maximum of $190 for clearing paperwork and customs. Any other charges that may arise are the responsibility of the purchaser."

I don't know if I'd trust a motor seller with a Geocities address.....

Buy from www.redime.com/swaps

That is $2800 and it includes all of that plus shipping included too.

Keep it simple? We're gonna make "the ultimate civic" by keeping it simple?

1. Like swapping an engine into a car that wasn't designed for it is simple.

2. Like making an economy car as fast as a V8 is simple.

Rene - get on AIM.

b18c1 or b16a, more people are interested in these motors for their cars so therefore us newbies would learn more from one of these engines.

b18c1 is good for all motor or FI applications, realistically, there is not going to be enough money to fully build a motor, do the suspension (including wheels/tires), do the exterior, the interior, all the little things.

you want to do a crvtec, your not going to finish the project because the funds run out...you want a decent motor that leaves options, it's the b18c1...you can get one for around $3000 including everything; change the gaskets, seals, bearings, timing belt, etc. and we have a good, reliable motor.....you want to build a bottom end, it's going to cost to much..labor is expensive, and parts don't just fall off trees.

the cr/vtec is great but i think we gotta say "build the ultimate civic WITH 20,000" now if we had an unlimited bank to build the true ultimate civic then hell yeah but with 20 grand you cant afford to get nickle and dimed.

I don't think you fully get what I'm trying to say.

Of course we don't have enough money to FULLY build a CRVTEC. I didn't say we should build a CRVTEC. I said we should get a B20 Block ($1200-$1500), slap a B16 head on it (+/-$600), then get a GSR tranny (??? Shouldn't be too much) and finally get the B16 ECU with it ($200). You'll get a better torque line then any of the other engines with a smooth flowing B16 head for some all around kick, All for less than or equal to anything else you're gonna buy.

I didn't say, let's destroke it, get custom length rods, endyn pistons, full head job, strap a T66 on it and control it all with an EMS.

We can do the B20/B16 thing and then get minor bolt ons, like IHE, cams, TB, fuel and spark. And that should be more than enough compared to any other choices we have.

If the car is gonna be a drag car go for the H22 otherwise I'd go with a B18C1. You gotta love all that power from a smaller lighter engine. I'm not too sure of prices but if you have enough money you might even be able to turbo s/c it too

But for regular driving the B18C1 would be the best bet (in my opinion) unless you can stiffen up the back end of your Civic like nuts so you'd be able to turn a little better with the heavier H22. With the H22 you would probably wanna put a bit of a stiffer spring in the front suspension to handle the gain in weight.

Whatever you choose I'm sure you will like it:D:D!

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer
I don't think you fully get what I'm trying to say.

Of course we don't have enough money to FULLY build a CRVTEC. I didn't say we should build a CRVTEC. I said we should get a B20 Block ($1200-$1500), slap a B16 head on it (+/-$600), then get a GSR tranny (??? Shouldn't be too much) and finally get the B16 ECU with it ($200). You'll get a better torque line then any of the other engines with a smooth flowing B16 head for some all around kick, All for less than or equal to anything else you're gonna buy.

I didn't say, let's destroke it, get custom length rods, endyn pistons, full head job, strap a T66 on it and control it all with an EMS.

We can do the B20/B16 thing and then get minor bolt ons, like IHE, cams, TB, fuel and spark. And that should be more than enough compared to any other choices we have.

I'm totally with RR on this one! No need to buy an entire GSR motor for $3000 (+/- 300) when you can get a b20 block for 1.3k (+/- 200), buy the b16 head for $600, and get an intake manfold, throttle body, etc.. that are designed for our application.. If we want the best car at the best price we should avoid buying more than we need; we ought to piece it together and make it a beast. It will probably end up costing a little more to piece to together than to just buy a GSR motor.. but then again, it's going to start with a crapload more power. in a race or B18c5 vs. crvtec, unless the b18c5 had something freaky done to it, i'd put my money on that crvtec.. for an extra +/-$500 i think it's worth it to step up to crvtec over the b18c1...

One other, option that really hasn't been adressed much is the b18b with a built bottom end and a big turbo... it might make the car a little less streetable but it's another option to toss out there...

For the purpose of this build how are we doing cost for labor? I think it's better for learning to post detail instructions on how to do most of this stuff... I know not everyone has the tools, but then again, not everyone wants to pay $600+ to drop an engine in either. maybe do a split where we factor in labor at about half of what it normally would be?

20,000 to spend.

Buy an older 4th Gen, or CRX for 2500, and I know for a fact you'll buld a bomb-proof CRVTEC with the remaining $$$, with plenty to spare.

And no, just slapping a B16a Head onto the B2 block, is NOT a good idea. That's why these motors are unreliable and go boom........if you're gonna build a frankenstein, do it right or don't do it at all.

If you're going with a regular motor, the B18c1 would be my pick.

But remember, 18,500 left......... hell with the GSR engine, CRVTEC here I come....

Im sick and tired of all your posts about the h22 and the understeer problems...
Thats a myth.!!! its not true, if you do the swap right their will be no understeer!! trust me ive seen it done.

Originally posted by Phatwhippin_CRX
Buy an older 4th Gen, or CRX for 2500, and I know for a fact you'll buld a bomb-proof CRVTEC with the remaining $$$, with plenty to spare.


we already bought a 97 EX coupe

Originally posted by CivSiGuy


we already bought a 97 EX coupe

baaaaaaaaaah....... can we sell it?

Originally posted by markpa
Im sick and tired of all your posts about the h22 and the understeer problems...
Thats a myth.!!! its not true, if you do the swap right their will be no understeer!! trust me ive seen it done.

um I didn't say that (I dunno who it was directed to...) but it depends on the car. EF? yeah, H22 = horrible understeer
EG? You'll still get some, just nothing HORRIBLY bad.....

poll now on there

fast + understeer = H22A
go with the CR-VTEC

Does anyone have a rough price range on what a CRVTEC would cost? I would like to know before I place my vote :D.

Originally posted by D16 V-TEC
Does anyone have a rough price range on what a CRVTEC would cost? I would like to know before I place my vote :D.

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer
Of course we don't have enough money to FULLY build a CRVTEC. I didn't say we should build a CRVTEC. I said we should get a B20 Block ($1200-$1500), slap a B16 head on it (+/-$600), then get a GSR tranny (??? Shouldn't be too much) and finally get the B16 ECU with it ($200). You'll get a better torque line then any of the other engines with a smooth flowing B16 head for some all around kick, All for less than or equal to anything else you're gonna buy.

http://www.thepartstrader.com/SingleAd.cfm?AdNum=244891&DCID=130&PCID=130&C2ID=1004

$4500, but it also dynos at 201hp which rocks

Originally posted by CivSiGuy
$4500, but it also dynos at 201hp which rocks

Let's be fair, that thing has a shitload of aftermarket parts.

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer


Let's be fair, that thing has a shitload of aftermarket parts.

i know.. i feel that the price is very justified

just remember, OBDII :D

If we do a CR Vtec, are we gonna have enough money for other stuff? I mean, we only have 20 grand to spend, and I forgot how much we already spent on the car

Sorry about the delay, I just re-re-registered. I know you were all waiting with baited breath for my first post. First off, I must say that I like the idea for this "Cyber Civic" a lot. Second, a 97 Civic EX Coupe? Booo! Throw it back. I know we can't...ah well.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but that 201 HP CRVTEC sounds mighty nice although far from simple. Also, if we're assuming this is for a newbie (someone mentioned that) are we also assuming they are paying for someone to do the labor for them?

One final request for those opposed to the Frankensteinian CRVTEC...get some prices up there. Cash is king!

Oh yeah, and if anyone suggests Altezza's in the final stage of this project....I will slay them

Originally posted by lowrightor
Sorry about the delay, I just re-re-registered. I know you were all waiting with baited breath for my first post. First off, I must say that I like the idea for this "Cyber Civic" a lot. Second, a 97 Civic EX Coupe? Booo! Throw it back. I know we can't...ah well.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but that 201 HP CRVTEC sounds mighty nice although far from simple. Also, if we're assuming this is for a newbie (someone mentioned that) are we also assuming they are paying for someone to do the labor for them?

One final request for those opposed to the Frankensteinian CRVTEC...get some prices up there. Cash is king!

Oh yeah, and if anyone suggests Altezza's in the final stage of this project....I will slay them

Hey, you're from Needham?? I'm from Newton!!! There's nothing wrong with a 97 civic coupe. lol

well, for all I've seen here, the H22 and the CR Vtec look the best. I have a problem understanding why the H22 would cause understeer. The Prelude isn't that much heavier than a civic is it? and with the right suspension couldn't the effect be negated?

I don't know much about the CRVtec, but it sounds awesome, so that was my vote, but I'm still curious as to why that motor (H22) would cause handling problems that are that substantial.

The civic is made to carry the 1.6 liter. If you put an H22 (2.2) in, the front will become heavier, causing the balance to be off, and that will kill the turning

Originally posted by Darkwing
well, for all I've seen here, the H22 and the CR Vtec look the best. I have a problem understanding why the H22 would cause understeer. The Prelude isn't that much heavier than a civic is it? and with the right suspension couldn't the effect be negated?

I don't know much about the CRVtec, but it sounds awesome, so that was my vote, but I'm still curious as to why that motor (H22) would cause handling problems that are that substantial.

the motor and tranny are roughly 80 pounds heavier then a b series motor. it may not seem like alot but it is. i really wouldnt be concerned with the understeer since we are doing the suspension anyways you know? instead of getting a spring's that are one rate you could just get stiffer springs. its just the custom mounts and all the knick knacks that go along with the swap that are a bitch. i mean jamming that puppy in there is no joke, i have a prelude obviously and the motor just barely fits in that engine bay!!

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer
I don't think you fully get what I'm trying to say.

Of course we don't have enough money to FULLY build a CRVTEC. I didn't say we should build a CRVTEC. I said we should get a B20 Block ($1200-$1500), slap a B16 head on it (+/-$600), then get a GSR tranny (??? Shouldn't be too much) and finally get the B16 ECU with it ($200). You'll get a better torque line then any of the other engines with a smooth flowing B16 head for some all around kick, All for less than or equal to anything else you're gonna buy.

I didn't say, let's destroke it, get custom length rods, endyn pistons, full head job, strap a T66 on it and control it all with an EMS.

We can do the B20/B16 thing and then get minor bolt ons, like IHE, cams, TB, fuel and spark. And that should be more than enough compared to any other choices we have.

I saw that before.... Honest.... :rolleyes: Well my vote goes for the crvtec.

The real problem with the H22 isn't the understeer problem. It is there but that shouldn't be the main concern. The main concern for me is the price.

H22A Block and transmission: $3000
Mounts: $650
Shafts and axles: $400-$500
Accord Distributor: $100
Wiring kit: $300
Shifter and linkage: $100
Slimmer rad fan: $100
Accord fuel rail: $100
And misc items including insurance items: $500-$700

Best case scenario $4500 plus labor, cutting holes, mounts, and wires. And you're still left with an inadequate cooling and braking system and shipping charges and no AC and no power steering.

Not exactly the cheapest choice either.

Personally, Id rather have the GSR conversion, just because it seems simple. However, for the purposes of this thing, I wouldnt be against a CR-VTEC engine, it would be something to learn about. The main thing to me, is the cost, how much do each of these cost. Ive seen the complete GSR conversion on sohfast.com for 3900, so will the CR-VTEC thing be cheaper than that after all is said and done?

Originally posted by piscorpio
Ive seen the complete GSR conversion on sohfast.com for 3900, so will the CR-VTEC thing be cheaper than that after all is said and done?

Ok...I'm under the influence of alcohol right now so I need to take count...slowly :)

Let's address all the issues the H22 has for instance to see if it's cheaper and at the same time we'll see the GSR price as well. Worst case scenario:

B20 Block $1500
No custom mounts needed
Shafts will be needed: 2-$300
No internal coil distributor changover needed
Wiring doesn't need a kit
Shift linkage....no more than $50
Cooling might need upgrading as with any swap
The fuel rail has the inlet facing the right way so no mods
Insurance items still needed like water pump and timint belt: 5-$700

GSR tranny: Let's say $700
B16 Head $600

You don't need to cut holes, mounts or wires. The braking and cooling system will need to upgraded like any swap and you retain AC and power steering.

Worst case: $3850 for the complete bolt in bolt-in B20 hybrid that should put about 150-160 wheel horsepower before modifications.

B18C1 Block, tranny, ECU: Let's say $3500
Axles needed: 2-$300
Shift linkage: If not supplied $50
Insurance items: 5-$700

That's $4550 for everything you'd need and there is still the issure of all the misc. items you'll need in the swap like power steering brackets and hoses. Ad it'll put down about 150hp on dyno.

I'm not trying to postwhore here, but I must say that RR (in his current state) typing that whole message flawlessly was quite impressive.

The CRVTEC is a cool solution I wouldn't mind learning about and would certainly not tackle myself.

A GSR engine would certainly be a more simple solution.

We're probably going to decided to turbo this thing....so does anyone have any dyno #'s on turboed GSR engines and (less likely) CRVTECs?

Also, could someone do a price breakdown (similar to RR's) for the GSR engine.

I'd say, for the reasons RR pointed out, the H22 is gone.

i got lucky my '00 Japanese H22 wich is the one i voted 4 offcourse
i spend 1g on it and that's cuz i kept on sending parts to some kid in Japan that i know i kept on sending him parts so he could send me that engine :bandit:

I think the price for the CRV block is too high. Go to www.car-part.com and check out some junkyards for CRV engines. Most of 'em seem to go for like $1000. It's a small point but still goes to show how cheap this swap can be.

I'm sorry for being slow, but are we hooking up VTEC? Or just using the B16 head for it's flow characteristics?

it is possible to do the H22 from a physical stand point, financial possibley (more likely than not). CRVTEC is to risky for a "newbie" (they wouldn't want to get burned) and could be costly. This is why go for the B18C1 and turbo it. We'll still have lots of money left for other mods, for suspension, body kit and interior(if enough money is left).

This newbie shit has to go I think, lets just do what we set out to do, and build a kick ass Civic. So maybe we should look at it that way, just go for the best we can afford, whether its a CRV monster, B18, or hell even an Mitsubishi Eclipse engine, who cares.

That being said, this CRV idea sounds cool, but Im just left wondering about its turbo suitability? Also, if we do turbocharge, wouldnt we have to build a custom turbo setup, since this isnt exactly a stock engine companies would make kits for. Sorry RR, I know you probably covered this stuff with all the B20 info you have been spewing.

Also, I think we need some honest to goodness dyno charts on our two front runners here. We should not only be concerned with peak hp but also how the curve looks, which Im guessing the B20 would have the advantage.

well, piscorpio - the whole concept is for newbies to learn. Which is why I stress it.


But..after readin' the "Drunken Rene rundown" (hehe ;)) I say let's go for a SIMPLE CRVTEC.

Very simple..nothing to drastic.

Maybe a B20Z block, B16A head, GSR tranny, some sort of axles and all that good stuff :D

Then - Jon.

I suggest we "branch out" after we get into deciding turbo or supercharger or NA.

That way there can be 3 threads.

Each being a different scenario (super, turbo, NA) for newbies to learn from.

They can learn what CR to go with..and the like --- good idea?


VTEC_boi - who finally agrees to go for a CRVTEC.

Which wheels on your Civic are the drive wheels?

Which wheels on an S2000 are the drive wheels?


theeeerrreee you go....


**If you didn't get that..the Civic is front-wheel drive and the S2000 is rear-wheel drive.

Not to mention tons of other problems..

Such as:

1) the longitudinal mount of the F20C
2) the reverse spinning of the F20C as compared to traditional Honda motors

And others..but I'm having a website prob. I gotta check out.

Somebody will cover those...

it's ok...

I'm glad all my dumb posts were deleted in the hack...and the transfer :D

*whistles...*:rolleyes: :D

One other thing about the CR-VTEC, are there longevity issues with this engine? I get the impression a CR-VTEC would age less gracefully than a B18, but correct me if I am wrong. So how long do we want this car to last, 100,000+ miles?

i know you guys wanna swap but couldnt you just build the stock motor they do sell an apex turbo kit for it and there is plenty else you could do to the motor. thats just my opinion.