Understeer!!!
natcc99
12-10-2001, 11:33 PM
With cars that experiences understeer, what can one do to balance that condition?!?!?!?!
tighten the front end or tighten the back end?!??!
Now opened for discussion...let's hear that you have to say :D
tighten the front end or tighten the back end?!??!
Now opened for discussion...let's hear that you have to say :D
Dezoris
12-10-2001, 11:44 PM
Cars that have inherent oversteer, need to have a few things assesed.
A big cause for it is, having a suspension that has been lowered, ore modified.
Why, alignments not suited for the drop.
Rear end too stiff.
Too large of a rear sway bar
Worn rear tires.
Uneven braking (Big problem with Civics without 4 wheel disc and antilock)
The braking almost always spins me in turing conditions, dangerously, sometimes.
If you have adjustable suspension then another cause can be not having the car corner weighted, meaning the weight distribution on each tire is different, so when you turn one side, L/R/F/R is getting more weight and that side tends to break loose more frequently, even on a stock suspension this is an issue but un-fixable.
So how do you fix it? The biggest thing would be to get a coilover, height adjustable suspension, with rebound and compression control.
All you need is height adjustabilty to corner weigh the car which will fix those under or oversteer tendencies. Adding to that stiffening the front and loosening the rear, eliminates oversteer along with a larger front anti-sway bar, and the reverse is true for adding oversteer.
Many variables, on a stock suspension, it is almost always, weight distribution, tires, and braking.
A big cause for it is, having a suspension that has been lowered, ore modified.
Why, alignments not suited for the drop.
Rear end too stiff.
Too large of a rear sway bar
Worn rear tires.
Uneven braking (Big problem with Civics without 4 wheel disc and antilock)
The braking almost always spins me in turing conditions, dangerously, sometimes.
If you have adjustable suspension then another cause can be not having the car corner weighted, meaning the weight distribution on each tire is different, so when you turn one side, L/R/F/R is getting more weight and that side tends to break loose more frequently, even on a stock suspension this is an issue but un-fixable.
So how do you fix it? The biggest thing would be to get a coilover, height adjustable suspension, with rebound and compression control.
All you need is height adjustabilty to corner weigh the car which will fix those under or oversteer tendencies. Adding to that stiffening the front and loosening the rear, eliminates oversteer along with a larger front anti-sway bar, and the reverse is true for adding oversteer.
Many variables, on a stock suspension, it is almost always, weight distribution, tires, and braking.
natcc99
12-11-2001, 01:28 AM
hello
thanks for the insight :)
Yes, I actually do have adjustable height suspension.
I totally forgot about the height adjust on each tire. You are correct that there is a possible concern for each corner being at a different height.
Even though it's very little, it probably helps out in the handling performance under extreme conditions.
All of my tires are very worn down. That could be my key answer. I am refering to my stock tires and my aftermarket tires/rims. I need to get new rubber.....and if any of you remember, I have been saying that for the LONGEST TIME :D :D :D
I do not believe my rear is too stiff.
The reason for saying this is because I have NO rear sway bar. My car doesn't come with one from the factory.
(if I'm correct...only the EX model come with them)
I'm confused by your quote
Adding to that stiffening the front and loosening the rear, eliminates oversteer along with a larger front anti-sway bar, and the reverse is true for adding oversteer.
do you mean oversteer or understeer
thanks for the insight :)
Yes, I actually do have adjustable height suspension.
I totally forgot about the height adjust on each tire. You are correct that there is a possible concern for each corner being at a different height.
Even though it's very little, it probably helps out in the handling performance under extreme conditions.
All of my tires are very worn down. That could be my key answer. I am refering to my stock tires and my aftermarket tires/rims. I need to get new rubber.....and if any of you remember, I have been saying that for the LONGEST TIME :D :D :D
I do not believe my rear is too stiff.
The reason for saying this is because I have NO rear sway bar. My car doesn't come with one from the factory.
(if I'm correct...only the EX model come with them)
I'm confused by your quote
Adding to that stiffening the front and loosening the rear, eliminates oversteer along with a larger front anti-sway bar, and the reverse is true for adding oversteer.
do you mean oversteer or understeer
texan
12-11-2001, 02:00 AM
Yeah, Dezoris got mixed up in his last post. He's dead on with everything he said, except that this thread is about understeer, not oversteer.
First off, what's your suspension setup natcc99? How much have you lowered the car, and are your shocks adjustable? What tire pressures do you run front and rear, and what are the alignment specs? Especially camber and toe, those are the most important.
You should definitely try to find a modestly sized rear sway bar, it will make a huge difference in overall handling balance. What you want to do in order to balance out the car, aside from possibly changing alignment settings (to be talked about when you get back to us on that), is either stiffen the rear suspension or soften the front. This will cause more weight to be transferred to the outside rear tire of the car, which in turn will cause less total traction at that end and balance the car's understeering tendencies. Hope this helps, peace.
First off, what's your suspension setup natcc99? How much have you lowered the car, and are your shocks adjustable? What tire pressures do you run front and rear, and what are the alignment specs? Especially camber and toe, those are the most important.
You should definitely try to find a modestly sized rear sway bar, it will make a huge difference in overall handling balance. What you want to do in order to balance out the car, aside from possibly changing alignment settings (to be talked about when you get back to us on that), is either stiffen the rear suspension or soften the front. This will cause more weight to be transferred to the outside rear tire of the car, which in turn will cause less total traction at that end and balance the car's understeering tendencies. Hope this helps, peace.
Dezoris
12-11-2001, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by texan
Yeah, Dezoris got mixed up in his last post. He's dead on with everything he said, except that this thread is about understeer, not oversteer.
man, i just started hooked on phonics too
Yeah, Dezoris got mixed up in his last post. He's dead on with everything he said, except that this thread is about understeer, not oversteer.
man, i just started hooked on phonics too
LsvtecHatch
12-11-2001, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Dezoris
man, i just started hooked on phonics too
Hooked on Phonics Worked for me!
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/035/GU/ZL/pi/hY22210.jpg
man, i just started hooked on phonics too
Hooked on Phonics Worked for me!
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/035/GU/ZL/pi/hY22210.jpg
Dezoris
12-11-2001, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by natcc99
hello
thanks for the insight :)
Yes, I actually do have adjustable height suspension.
I totally forgot about the height adjust on each tire. You are correct that there is a possible concern for each corner being at a different height.
Even though it's very little, it probably helps out in the handling performance under extreme conditions.
All of my tires are very worn down. That could be my key answer. I am refering to my stock tires and my aftermarket tires/rims. I need to get new rubber.....and if any of you remember, I have been saying that for the LONGEST TIME :D :D :D
I do not believe my rear is too stiff.
The reason for saying this is because I have NO rear sway bar. My car doesn't come with one from the factory.
(if I'm correct...only the EX model come with them)
I'm confused by your quote
Adding to that stiffening the front and loosening the rear, eliminates oversteer along with a larger front anti-sway bar, and the reverse is true for adding oversteer.
do you mean oversteer or understeer
sorry, yes adding a larger front bar promotes understeer, adding a rear bar promotes oversteer. There is a balance to be found and you are not going to find it by adding bars.
It is not the height difference in the suspension it is the weight distribution. When you hav ethe car corner weighted, all 4 corners may be a diffrent height.
It is like jacking up one side of your car, what happens?
The other side bears the weight. this is the idea, while using scales the balance the weight of each tire.
And yes Texan is right, alignments are one of the most blown off thing, as well as tire pressure and tires, it is all about how your tire is making contact with the ground.
Many times a culprit of odd sliding or loss of stability is when your toe is off even a little can throw off high speed stabilty, by having each tire going it opposite directions \ / or / \ or | \ yes that is extreme but it only takes a slight angle, to mess you up. What tires do you use? and what are the pressures. Something fun I have noticed switching tires is, going from the Toyo Proxes, which did not grip no matter waht pressure you had them at, or alignment settings, to the S03s that griped all the time, and did not roll when you turned, very direct feeling, to the Yokohama Avid H4s with a higher profile is that when you have a higher profile or even low tire pressures, you feel that flex in the tire, comming out of a turn hard, feels like a rubber band snapping back at you to reset.
Soft sidewalls, lower tire pressures equal rolling the sidewalls.
SO I upped the pressure a bit. Helped in the grip dept. But there is still that roll, and this roll is a what causes all of my understeer on my car right now. wow I am babling
hello
thanks for the insight :)
Yes, I actually do have adjustable height suspension.
I totally forgot about the height adjust on each tire. You are correct that there is a possible concern for each corner being at a different height.
Even though it's very little, it probably helps out in the handling performance under extreme conditions.
All of my tires are very worn down. That could be my key answer. I am refering to my stock tires and my aftermarket tires/rims. I need to get new rubber.....and if any of you remember, I have been saying that for the LONGEST TIME :D :D :D
I do not believe my rear is too stiff.
The reason for saying this is because I have NO rear sway bar. My car doesn't come with one from the factory.
(if I'm correct...only the EX model come with them)
I'm confused by your quote
Adding to that stiffening the front and loosening the rear, eliminates oversteer along with a larger front anti-sway bar, and the reverse is true for adding oversteer.
do you mean oversteer or understeer
sorry, yes adding a larger front bar promotes understeer, adding a rear bar promotes oversteer. There is a balance to be found and you are not going to find it by adding bars.
It is not the height difference in the suspension it is the weight distribution. When you hav ethe car corner weighted, all 4 corners may be a diffrent height.
It is like jacking up one side of your car, what happens?
The other side bears the weight. this is the idea, while using scales the balance the weight of each tire.
And yes Texan is right, alignments are one of the most blown off thing, as well as tire pressure and tires, it is all about how your tire is making contact with the ground.
Many times a culprit of odd sliding or loss of stability is when your toe is off even a little can throw off high speed stabilty, by having each tire going it opposite directions \ / or / \ or | \ yes that is extreme but it only takes a slight angle, to mess you up. What tires do you use? and what are the pressures. Something fun I have noticed switching tires is, going from the Toyo Proxes, which did not grip no matter waht pressure you had them at, or alignment settings, to the S03s that griped all the time, and did not roll when you turned, very direct feeling, to the Yokohama Avid H4s with a higher profile is that when you have a higher profile or even low tire pressures, you feel that flex in the tire, comming out of a turn hard, feels like a rubber band snapping back at you to reset.
Soft sidewalls, lower tire pressures equal rolling the sidewalls.
SO I upped the pressure a bit. Helped in the grip dept. But there is still that roll, and this roll is a what causes all of my understeer on my car right now. wow I am babling
natcc99
12-11-2001, 12:23 PM
Hello
Here is my suspension set up.
Sprint lowering Springs
Bec tech adjustable height Struts (the car sits about 1.75 inch lowered than stock)
Front tower bar
Rear tower bar
Yokohama tires sitting on 15 inch rims (worn tires!!!!!!!!!)
Front camber -1.3 degree
Front toe +0.03
Rear camber -0.7 degree
Rear toe +0.04
I really think my problem is my worn out tires. I'm sure adding stiffness to the rear will help, but probably the biggest concern are the tires. They're old. :p
Here is my suspension set up.
Sprint lowering Springs
Bec tech adjustable height Struts (the car sits about 1.75 inch lowered than stock)
Front tower bar
Rear tower bar
Yokohama tires sitting on 15 inch rims (worn tires!!!!!!!!!)
Front camber -1.3 degree
Front toe +0.03
Rear camber -0.7 degree
Rear toe +0.04
I really think my problem is my worn out tires. I'm sure adding stiffness to the rear will help, but probably the biggest concern are the tires. They're old. :p
Dezoris
12-11-2001, 03:39 PM
Depending on your max pressure and easy way to tell if the tires are the culprit is by raising cold inflation pressures 2-5 psi lower than your max pressure in the front keeping your rear the same.
This will be able to tell you alittle bit about the condition of your tires.
How do they react? slide roll, still understeer?
Tires are the foundation, no matter if you have an F1 if your tires are shot it will handle like like ass.
Start there, what is the tread depth?
This will be able to tell you alittle bit about the condition of your tires.
How do they react? slide roll, still understeer?
Tires are the foundation, no matter if you have an F1 if your tires are shot it will handle like like ass.
Start there, what is the tread depth?
natcc99
12-11-2001, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Dezoris
Start there, what is the tread depth?
treads????? what treads?!?!?!
I'm sure if a cop ever pulled me over, I would get a ticket for unsafe tires. :)
Actually, they are not that bad.
I only have treads on the outer edges. These are used tires and they were only in fair condition when I got them.
However, because I had too much pressure, the inner treads are worn out.
There's a long story why they're like that...:bloated:
Yeah, I know...these tires are shot and ready to be recycled.
As of now, I'm rolling on my stock tires :p
THANKS for all the help :D
Start there, what is the tread depth?
treads????? what treads?!?!?!
I'm sure if a cop ever pulled me over, I would get a ticket for unsafe tires. :)
Actually, they are not that bad.
I only have treads on the outer edges. These are used tires and they were only in fair condition when I got them.
However, because I had too much pressure, the inner treads are worn out.
There's a long story why they're like that...:bloated:
Yeah, I know...these tires are shot and ready to be recycled.
As of now, I'm rolling on my stock tires :p
THANKS for all the help :D
SilverY2KCivic
12-12-2001, 03:34 AM
Texan mentioned adding a modest sized sway bar. A rear sway bar is at the TOP of my modding priority list right now, and has been for a while. Right now I'm settled on adding the 13mm (yeah, small I know) '99-'00 Si rear sway bar to my '00 Civic DX coupe. It has the end link holes in the LCAs for the bar, so all I need is the center brace for the bar and end links, and I'm set. I have an entire dealership parts guide/list for the sway bar from an Si. Anyways, I opted for this bar because I can't afford a better one at the moment, a friend is offering to sell me one from a friend of his, Si for $45, and the Si one should be sufficient enough for me I feel, for right now at least, seeing how a small sway is better than no sway, right? So is the 13mm rear Si sway bar, TOO small of a size, or would it work for me? If I got a non OEM bar for my car, I'd either go for a Skunk2, or the AddCo bar that Summit Racing sells in their catalog, and on their site. But with my current budget and income at the moment, I'd really have to budget for that one... =\
natcc99
12-12-2001, 09:23 PM
best of luck to you!!! :D
hope it works out.
and if it's not enough...start saving up some cash :D
hope it works out.
and if it's not enough...start saving up some cash :D
Dezoris
12-12-2001, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic
Texan mentioned adding a modest sized sway bar. A rear sway bar is at the TOP of my modding priority list right now, and has been for a while. Right now I'm settled on adding the 13mm (yeah, small I know) '99-'00 Si rear sway bar to my '00 Civic DX coupe. It has the end link holes in the LCAs for the bar, so all I need is the center brace for the bar and end links, and I'm set. I have an entire dealership parts guide/list for the sway bar from an Si. Anyways, I opted for this bar because I can't afford a better one at the moment, a friend is offering to sell me one from a friend of his, Si for $45, and the Si one should be sufficient enough for me I feel, for right now at least, seeing how a small sway is better than no sway, right? So is the 13mm rear Si sway bar, TOO small of a size, or would it work for me? If I got a non OEM bar for my car, I'd either go for a Skunk2, or the AddCo bar that Summit Racing sells in their catalog, and on their site. But with my current budget and income at the moment, I'd really have to budget for that one... =\
Actually the Si bar is a perfect combo with the stock front bar, they designed it well. You can't beat it.
Don't buy anything else, that is a smart move.
Texan mentioned adding a modest sized sway bar. A rear sway bar is at the TOP of my modding priority list right now, and has been for a while. Right now I'm settled on adding the 13mm (yeah, small I know) '99-'00 Si rear sway bar to my '00 Civic DX coupe. It has the end link holes in the LCAs for the bar, so all I need is the center brace for the bar and end links, and I'm set. I have an entire dealership parts guide/list for the sway bar from an Si. Anyways, I opted for this bar because I can't afford a better one at the moment, a friend is offering to sell me one from a friend of his, Si for $45, and the Si one should be sufficient enough for me I feel, for right now at least, seeing how a small sway is better than no sway, right? So is the 13mm rear Si sway bar, TOO small of a size, or would it work for me? If I got a non OEM bar for my car, I'd either go for a Skunk2, or the AddCo bar that Summit Racing sells in their catalog, and on their site. But with my current budget and income at the moment, I'd really have to budget for that one... =\
Actually the Si bar is a perfect combo with the stock front bar, they designed it well. You can't beat it.
Don't buy anything else, that is a smart move.
Racing Rice
12-12-2001, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Dezoris
Don't buy anything else, that is a smart move.
I agree youll probably love it compared to stock, the bar is small enough so that you will still have understeer, but not near as much. Itll make the car feel a little more predictable, Ill probably be wishing I did the same thing pretty soon. We'll see. You probably wont have to worry about subframe tear out with a smaller bar like that either.
Don't buy anything else, that is a smart move.
I agree youll probably love it compared to stock, the bar is small enough so that you will still have understeer, but not near as much. Itll make the car feel a little more predictable, Ill probably be wishing I did the same thing pretty soon. We'll see. You probably wont have to worry about subframe tear out with a smaller bar like that either.
SilverY2KCivic
12-13-2001, 12:50 AM
DX's are barless, front and back, so I'd only have the rear sway for now once I get it soon here.
Just out of curiosity, what is subframe tearout? :confused:
Just out of curiosity, what is subframe tearout? :confused:
Dezoris
12-13-2001, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Racing Rice
I agree youll probably love it compared to stock, the bar is small enough so that you will still have understeer, but not near as much. Itll make the car feel a little more predictable, Ill probably be wishing I did the same thing pretty soon. We'll see. You probably wont have to worry about subframe tear out with a smaller bar like that either.
Especially since the brackets and bar were designed for it.
Actually I am not so worried about my frame any more on my car as the stress it will put on the control arm bushings (which happen to be my Kmac camber kits) Man I have some work to do next year :(
Actually my sub frame tear was caused, maunly by the bar forcing the arm off the bushings on the left so the left arm moved toward the front of the car pulling the right side of the bar toward the rear, but even before then the bar was pulling away.
To be honest R. Rice I don't think the Civic frame was designed for a large bar in the rear. Why? well just think of tyhe physics of the bar.
Where is all the stress going? Right to the subframe. The control arm moves up or down the bar pushes pulls through the bushings transferring to the opposite control arm, all that weight transfer of the bar is stress to the sub frame, and that is why you see the combo kits now. But that is fine to beef up the two pickup points, but as you saw the pullout is an issue and so is the tear away from the frame, which, is common. I am going to have my subframe rewelded over the factory welds just in case. Beacuse I have heard how fast Neuspeed, replaces those!! Actually a tech a Greddy told me about the problem and then Neuspeed conseded it "was" but has been rectified with the new brackets.
I don't trust them, nor any bracket.
I agree youll probably love it compared to stock, the bar is small enough so that you will still have understeer, but not near as much. Itll make the car feel a little more predictable, Ill probably be wishing I did the same thing pretty soon. We'll see. You probably wont have to worry about subframe tear out with a smaller bar like that either.
Especially since the brackets and bar were designed for it.
Actually I am not so worried about my frame any more on my car as the stress it will put on the control arm bushings (which happen to be my Kmac camber kits) Man I have some work to do next year :(
Actually my sub frame tear was caused, maunly by the bar forcing the arm off the bushings on the left so the left arm moved toward the front of the car pulling the right side of the bar toward the rear, but even before then the bar was pulling away.
To be honest R. Rice I don't think the Civic frame was designed for a large bar in the rear. Why? well just think of tyhe physics of the bar.
Where is all the stress going? Right to the subframe. The control arm moves up or down the bar pushes pulls through the bushings transferring to the opposite control arm, all that weight transfer of the bar is stress to the sub frame, and that is why you see the combo kits now. But that is fine to beef up the two pickup points, but as you saw the pullout is an issue and so is the tear away from the frame, which, is common. I am going to have my subframe rewelded over the factory welds just in case. Beacuse I have heard how fast Neuspeed, replaces those!! Actually a tech a Greddy told me about the problem and then Neuspeed conseded it "was" but has been rectified with the new brackets.
I don't trust them, nor any bracket.
Drocca91
12-13-2001, 04:46 PM
ive been told if you tighten the rear you will eliminate understeer! thats why im saying on my rear sway!
Racing Rice
12-13-2001, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic
DX's are barless, front and back, so I'd only have the rear sway for now once I get it soon here.
Just out of curiosity, what is subframe tearout? :confused:
Damn.. I wandered about the front swaybar... I figured they have changed that but I guess not.. If I were you.. I would find a EX bar.. its 22mm it would work great in your car.
Ill led dez explain the subframe tearout is.. Since he's got the experience in this..:eek: He can put up some pics for you too.. well kinda.. he had his bolts tear out of the subframe..
DX's are barless, front and back, so I'd only have the rear sway for now once I get it soon here.
Just out of curiosity, what is subframe tearout? :confused:
Damn.. I wandered about the front swaybar... I figured they have changed that but I guess not.. If I were you.. I would find a EX bar.. its 22mm it would work great in your car.
Ill led dez explain the subframe tearout is.. Since he's got the experience in this..:eek: He can put up some pics for you too.. well kinda.. he had his bolts tear out of the subframe..
SilverY2KCivic
12-14-2001, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Racing Rice
Damn.. I wandered about the front swaybar... I figured they have changed that but I guess not.. If I were you.. I would find a EX bar.. its 22mm it would work great in your car.
Ill led dez explain the subframe tearout is.. Since he's got the experience in this..:eek: He can put up some pics for you too.. well kinda.. he had his bolts tear out of the subframe..
Damn, sounds pretty serious then, yeah, I'd love an explanation of what it is, bolts ripping out doean't sound very good...
You mention a 22mm bar, your meaning for the front, right? I'm going to hopefully pick up the bar tomorrow, then get the hardware for it in the next week or so (any related bolts/screws/washers to it, bushings, the center support brace for the bar, and endlinks if it doesn't already come with any) Once I get it on, I'll then figure out if a front sway is nessacery anytime soon, or not. The rear sway is a pretty easy mod for my '00 DX coupe it looks like, but I'm real optemistic at how well putting a front sway on my car would be... :confused: But I think it is possible for the front. I just can't wait to get the rear sway on, and test her out! If I have a rear tiebar, that shouldn't interfere clearance wise with the rear sawybar, should it? Just curious on that....
Damn.. I wandered about the front swaybar... I figured they have changed that but I guess not.. If I were you.. I would find a EX bar.. its 22mm it would work great in your car.
Ill led dez explain the subframe tearout is.. Since he's got the experience in this..:eek: He can put up some pics for you too.. well kinda.. he had his bolts tear out of the subframe..
Damn, sounds pretty serious then, yeah, I'd love an explanation of what it is, bolts ripping out doean't sound very good...
You mention a 22mm bar, your meaning for the front, right? I'm going to hopefully pick up the bar tomorrow, then get the hardware for it in the next week or so (any related bolts/screws/washers to it, bushings, the center support brace for the bar, and endlinks if it doesn't already come with any) Once I get it on, I'll then figure out if a front sway is nessacery anytime soon, or not. The rear sway is a pretty easy mod for my '00 DX coupe it looks like, but I'm real optemistic at how well putting a front sway on my car would be... :confused: But I think it is possible for the front. I just can't wait to get the rear sway on, and test her out! If I have a rear tiebar, that shouldn't interfere clearance wise with the rear sawybar, should it? Just curious on that....
Dezoris
12-14-2001, 03:02 AM
http://www.dezoris.com/sub.JPG
That is a picture of a common problem with sway bars, and the larger in diameter they are the more stress they put on the mounting points.
I dicussed with racing rice about how to prevent it, and mainly anyone who installs one should have larger washers on either one or both sides of the frame where the mounting bolts are. The metal is flimsy, and by using larger washers you are distrubuting the stress/pressure to a larger area, which makes the bar more effective, and the life of your sub frame will be greatly increased.
Now above those holes where the bar mounts you will see the factory welds where the sub-frame connects to the frame, those welds have been known to tear and the sub frame pulls from the frame, although this is not as common these are things to watch for.
I always have people thinking I am full of shit when, I bring up possible issues like this. Why because people that have their shit put on for them who really don't care or tune their car would never know whether this was happening or not, so they always say, "you won't have problems"
So I guess I am just making you aware, and telling you what you need to watch for or try to prevent. With the stock bar, sub frame weld tears will not even be an issue, just use the larger washers on the frame, that will almost keep it void of all possible tear out.
That is a picture of a common problem with sway bars, and the larger in diameter they are the more stress they put on the mounting points.
I dicussed with racing rice about how to prevent it, and mainly anyone who installs one should have larger washers on either one or both sides of the frame where the mounting bolts are. The metal is flimsy, and by using larger washers you are distrubuting the stress/pressure to a larger area, which makes the bar more effective, and the life of your sub frame will be greatly increased.
Now above those holes where the bar mounts you will see the factory welds where the sub-frame connects to the frame, those welds have been known to tear and the sub frame pulls from the frame, although this is not as common these are things to watch for.
I always have people thinking I am full of shit when, I bring up possible issues like this. Why because people that have their shit put on for them who really don't care or tune their car would never know whether this was happening or not, so they always say, "you won't have problems"
So I guess I am just making you aware, and telling you what you need to watch for or try to prevent. With the stock bar, sub frame weld tears will not even be an issue, just use the larger washers on the frame, that will almost keep it void of all possible tear out.
Dezoris
12-14-2001, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic
Damn, sounds pretty serious then, yeah, I'd love an explanation of what it is, bolts ripping out doean't sound very good...
You mention a 22mm bar, your meaning for the front, right? I'm going to hopefully pick up the bar tomorrow, then get the hardware for it in the next week or so (any related bolts/screws/washers to it, bushings, the center support brace for the bar, and endlinks if it doesn't already come with any) Once I get it on, I'll then figure out if a front sway is nessacery anytime soon, or not. The rear sway is a pretty easy mod for my '00 DX coupe it looks like, but I'm real optemistic at how well putting a front sway on my car would be... :confused: But I think it is possible for the front. I just can't wait to get the rear sway on, and test her out! If I have a rear tiebar, that shouldn't interfere clearance wise with the rear sawybar, should it? Just curious on that....
what kind of tie bar? The way the Si bar mounts it should not be an issue
Damn, sounds pretty serious then, yeah, I'd love an explanation of what it is, bolts ripping out doean't sound very good...
You mention a 22mm bar, your meaning for the front, right? I'm going to hopefully pick up the bar tomorrow, then get the hardware for it in the next week or so (any related bolts/screws/washers to it, bushings, the center support brace for the bar, and endlinks if it doesn't already come with any) Once I get it on, I'll then figure out if a front sway is nessacery anytime soon, or not. The rear sway is a pretty easy mod for my '00 DX coupe it looks like, but I'm real optemistic at how well putting a front sway on my car would be... :confused: But I think it is possible for the front. I just can't wait to get the rear sway on, and test her out! If I have a rear tiebar, that shouldn't interfere clearance wise with the rear sawybar, should it? Just curious on that....
what kind of tie bar? The way the Si bar mounts it should not be an issue
SilverY2KCivic
12-14-2001, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by Dezoris
what kind of tie bar? The way the Si bar mounts it should not be an issue
Thanks for the above info on the tearout. Yeah, people may not experience it, but for those that do, it's good for everyone to know about it, just in case.
The tie bar I have is in my pic I posted of it (I think in this forum?) Well I'll post it up again anyways, but it's an Arospeed type/style bar... =\
what kind of tie bar? The way the Si bar mounts it should not be an issue
Thanks for the above info on the tearout. Yeah, people may not experience it, but for those that do, it's good for everyone to know about it, just in case.
The tie bar I have is in my pic I posted of it (I think in this forum?) Well I'll post it up again anyways, but it's an Arospeed type/style bar... =\
Dezoris
12-14-2001, 03:59 AM
that bar should fit fine
SilverY2KCivic
12-16-2001, 01:46 PM
Well I got the '99 Si bar yesterday from off my friend, it came with the end links, so that'll save me a bit of $$$ there. :cool: All I need to get to put it on, are the mounting brackets, and I'm set. I was at an import shop last night, and was asking them what parts I'd need to install the swaybar, besides the endlinks and the bar itself, and so the guy for no charge put my car up on a lift, to see for sure if the bar would line up with my suspension, and if it would clear my tiebar without any problems, and the bar will fit PERFECTLY...! :D I'll pick up the brackets from the local Honda dealership in the next cuple of days (only $10 for them) and then I hope to hve the bar installed by X-mas, hopefully next weekend maybe if I have time. :) The bar seems thin, but that's compared to say a 21mm thick Skunk2 rear sway one on my friend's got for his '92 Si hatch back yesterday. But he's thinking of having the mounting brackets welded on once bolted on, to help minimize the chance of tearout... =\ I'm glad I won't have to worry about that.
texan
12-16-2001, 07:22 PM
Congrats SilverY2KCivic! Let us know how the car feels after install, and remember not to push it too hard until you have a feel for it's new balance.
I just installed my new Sparco Torino's this weekend, and am as excited as you are. I never thought new seats could make the car feel so much better, it's almost as though it has a new suspension with how much more connected and planted the driving position is.
I just installed my new Sparco Torino's this weekend, and am as excited as you are. I never thought new seats could make the car feel so much better, it's almost as though it has a new suspension with how much more connected and planted the driving position is.
SilverY2KCivic
12-17-2001, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by texan
Congrats SilverY2KCivic! Let us know how the car feels after install, and remember not to push it too hard until you have a feel for it's new balance.
I just installed my new Sparco Torino's this weekend, and am as excited as you are. I never thought new seats could make the car feel so much better, it's almost as though it has a new suspension with how much more connected and planted the driving position is.
Thanks man. Yeah, I hear ya', can't get crazy with the feel after the sway install, until I'm full aware of it's new feel it'll have.
And congrats on the new seats, nothing like fitting in your car like a glove to be better connected to it. ;) How much did you get the seats for? I want those exact seats for my ride eventually.
Congrats SilverY2KCivic! Let us know how the car feels after install, and remember not to push it too hard until you have a feel for it's new balance.
I just installed my new Sparco Torino's this weekend, and am as excited as you are. I never thought new seats could make the car feel so much better, it's almost as though it has a new suspension with how much more connected and planted the driving position is.
Thanks man. Yeah, I hear ya', can't get crazy with the feel after the sway install, until I'm full aware of it's new feel it'll have.
And congrats on the new seats, nothing like fitting in your car like a glove to be better connected to it. ;) How much did you get the seats for? I want those exact seats for my ride eventually.
Racing Rice
12-17-2001, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by texan
..I just installed my new Sparco Torino's this weekend, and am as excited as you are.... it's almost as though it has a new suspension with how much more connected and planted the driving position is.
Dang thats what I need... Im tired of sliding out of my seat.. I dont get why the 6th Gen seats suck so bad.. That are worse then the 5th Gens.
..I just installed my new Sparco Torino's this weekend, and am as excited as you are.... it's almost as though it has a new suspension with how much more connected and planted the driving position is.
Dang thats what I need... Im tired of sliding out of my seat.. I dont get why the 6th Gen seats suck so bad.. That are worse then the 5th Gens.
BlackBeauty92
01-01-2002, 06:00 PM
i got Suspension Techniques rear sway bar on my 92 accord (with stock sway bar up front)
it works great.
much much better than stock ride... you really can feel the difference during hard cornering (mostly when u run on autocross)
hope it helps
oh yeah, the bar was 19mm from suspension techniques
u can also get one from Progress one, same thing...
just ignore the front sway bar (just use the stock one)
hope it helps
adding higher rate springs on the rear also helps alot for increasing your oversteer.
i got flat rate springs on all corner... very nice :)
it works great.
much much better than stock ride... you really can feel the difference during hard cornering (mostly when u run on autocross)
hope it helps
oh yeah, the bar was 19mm from suspension techniques
u can also get one from Progress one, same thing...
just ignore the front sway bar (just use the stock one)
hope it helps
adding higher rate springs on the rear also helps alot for increasing your oversteer.
i got flat rate springs on all corner... very nice :)
drift
01-01-2002, 06:59 PM
very simply...
one: add traction, get new tyres.
two: stiffen the rear with chassis bracing (strut tower bar) and anti-roll bar.
three: if two didnt do enough, loosen up the front with a smaller anti-roll bar or softer springs. also adjusting for a degree or two of negative camber up front will help your traction when rolling onto the tyres, providing more grip upfront, thus preventing understeer.
one: add traction, get new tyres.
two: stiffen the rear with chassis bracing (strut tower bar) and anti-roll bar.
three: if two didnt do enough, loosen up the front with a smaller anti-roll bar or softer springs. also adjusting for a degree or two of negative camber up front will help your traction when rolling onto the tyres, providing more grip upfront, thus preventing understeer.
SilverY2KCivic
01-02-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by drift
very simply...
one: add traction, get new tyres.
two: stiffen the rear with chassis bracing (strut tower bar) and anti-roll bar.
three: if two didnt do enough, loosen up the front with a smaller anti-roll bar or softer springs. also adjusting for a degree or two of negative camber up front will help your traction when rolling onto the tyres, providing more grip upfront, thus preventing understeer.
If my car isn't equipped stock, with any type of sway bar, to keep the understeer low, and the rear tight, should I just not even consider adding anything besides a front, top tower brace?
Also, the Si bar feels real nice, and right at home on my DX coupe. Body roll was quite a bit lessened after I put it on, and I can corner faster, without the car wanting to break loose. I dunno if I want to sacrifice the trunk space for a an upper rear bar, but with the rear sway, and lower tie, it feels quite nice. :)
very simply...
one: add traction, get new tyres.
two: stiffen the rear with chassis bracing (strut tower bar) and anti-roll bar.
three: if two didnt do enough, loosen up the front with a smaller anti-roll bar or softer springs. also adjusting for a degree or two of negative camber up front will help your traction when rolling onto the tyres, providing more grip upfront, thus preventing understeer.
If my car isn't equipped stock, with any type of sway bar, to keep the understeer low, and the rear tight, should I just not even consider adding anything besides a front, top tower brace?
Also, the Si bar feels real nice, and right at home on my DX coupe. Body roll was quite a bit lessened after I put it on, and I can corner faster, without the car wanting to break loose. I dunno if I want to sacrifice the trunk space for a an upper rear bar, but with the rear sway, and lower tie, it feels quite nice. :)
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