It's Official. *Read the disclaimer at the start of the thread!*

[Oz]

Originally Posted by Dan_in_WA

More blanket statements intended to cover anyone who lives under the US flag. I stand by what I said earlier. You rant against US citizens as a group, and direct it to individual US citizens.

Actually, not at all. I was pointing out both blindside.AMG and Solomon219 as examples of the extreme arrogance of the US mindset.

And your post is another good example of ignorance. As in, being too apathetic to find out what the hell is truly going on, despite the fact the information is under your nose.

[Oz]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

So what do you mean by the above quote? The terrorists have us "hook, line, and sinker"? That was their goal, yes, to cause civil unrest and a general fear in the populace. Should we NOT be affected? Just continue on as before, travelling overseas?

I think the world's view of Americans has changed, forever.

*sigh*

No, I mean the media institutionalised and sensationalised mindset has you hook, line and sinker. Dangerous time to travel? Gimme a break. What exactly makes it dangerous?

[Solomon219]

Perhaps you're right... Sorry if I was a bit terse. But what I'm basing my "travel worries" on is just what the media says, and how all US embassies are being evacuated. But surely there's a little truth in there.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I'm interested in the title of this book, as it sounds like an interesting read. I'm always interested in the "other side" of the story, so that no-one may accuse me of possessing a lack of infromation. Truthfully, how can you form an educated opinion without examining all sides of the issue? Let me go ahead and ask, though: What is the correlation between circumcision and rape? The fact that the male was "traumatized" as an infant because his foreskin was cut? Does it go into the following quote, where males are bigger and more powerful and can subject lesser subjects (i.e. women) to their will? I've always seen rape as a power/control thing, but also as someone who has an intense hatred for women, so that he must humiliate them.



I haven't read this book of yours (though I'd like to) or seen any other studies, but I do believe there is intense pain, and that anesthesia should be used. However, I fail to see how this would have any lasting mental impact on the child, even sub-consciously. I do not believe that a child becomes "impressionable" until farther on in life than 8 weeks, unless it is an abuse that is repeated. Most people have trouble remembering things from before they were 3 years old. So does the book address this?

You can find the book at Amazon.com.

The book doesn't really reach specific conclusions - no studies have been done on the long term effects of this kind of trauma on infants. However it brings up a lot of correlations - which could be due to other factors - such as the way the murder and rape rates have been rising in proportion to the circ rate.
Most people DO have trouble remembering things from when they are very young - in fact many people CAN'T - but whether or not those memories are "there" but just in the subconscious where they're inaccessible is up for debate. Then there is the question of how our subconscious memory affects us. There are a few cases mentioned where a 3-year old child recalled specific detailss about his birth that he hadn't been told about, asking why did people have paper on their faces (the doctors' masks) and why did they put a squeezy thing in his nose, and why did they strap his arms and legs to a board and cut his pee-pee with a scissors. It is very rare for children and especially adults to recall circumstances of their birth, but it has happened.
Some things that HAVE been proven are that infants are more immediately bonded to their mothers than fathers, as they are born knowing the mother's smell and the mother's voice. It has also been established that one of the most common "complications" of circumcision is breastfeeding interruption - where post-circ, a formerly happy child REFUSES to breastfeed under any circumstances.
What isn't established is why this happens. It's supposed that because the infant only knows his mother, he blames her for anything and everything he experiences, and that refusing her shows a lack of trust.
Then there is the rape thing - they don't reach any specific conclusions as no studies have been done - but it HAS been shown that many rapists act out of hate for a specific woman or for all women in general, and they tend to act out that hate on a random or chosen victim BECAUSE she is female, even though she's not the one they're mad at. And it has been shown that a greater percentage of circ'd men become rapists than intact men. But it's hard to say why this is. There are so many factors that could affect it, and like I said, studies have not been done.
Obviously circumcision cannot be a blame-all cause-all for rape and murder, because not every circ'd man rapes and murders. But there is a question of how trauma at such an early age can affect the psyche.

In any case, it's a very interesting read whether you agree or not. I perfectly understand your desire to know more - I started out from a "I won't do it to my kids but other parents can make their own choices" view and the more I read, the more I think, "Why would ANYBODY choose this for someone they loved? I wouldn't wish unauthorized cosmetic surgery on my worst enemy, let alone unanesthetized surgery." I think the more you read the more horrifying it becomes. This is a surgery, after all, that is not recommended by a single medical organization worldwide.

Another good book is What your doctor may not tell you about Circumcision (Paul M. Fleiss, Frederick M. Hodges ), and What every parent should know about circumcision (Anne Briggs).
You'll have a hard time finding the second one though, it's out of print and I bought the last used one off Amazon.

Originally Posted by TexasF355F1

I understand what your saying. Its just hard to leave something up to the person, when they have x amount of years until they can support themselves and their ideals. Parents usually do what they see is best. I was just stating my opinion on your opinion. I in no way wanted to offend you. I think I did, so I am sorry and I appologize.

I'm not offended. Just kinda passionate about the subject matter. I understand what you mean - when you first have a child it's hard to realize they'll ever be full-grown and a "real person" - it seems ages away. I honestly doubt that many parents choose circ out of malice - I think they just don't realize what exactly they're consenting to. In fact in one study of 90 mothers who had chosen circumcision, 6 didn't realize that anything got cut off. They thought the foreskin just got "pushed back".
I won't sit here and tell you that whomever circ's their child is a 'bad parent' either. I am glad that information is so much more readily available nowadays (Thank you internet!!) but a lot of people just say "of course we will circ" without realizing there's an alternative.
My husband said that. "I am and I'm fine so why not?" But I wasn't content to not start researching, and my husband is now apalled that it goes on. If anything I blame doctors for being so willing to do anything for a quick (15-40 minutes) buck ($200-450). Many doctors don't even provide parents with aftercare instructions, and so the babies develop problems requiring further surgery and doctor visits (more $$$). Did you know that the foreskins are sold to bio-tech research companies and cosmetic companies to be made into skin grafts and face creams? More $$$.
http://www.nbc10.com/health/1808693/detail.html
Anyway, I CAN see where you're coming from. I just think it's a subject worth being educated about. Just as I recommend people go to www.hwysafety.org before buying a car so they don't buy a
Chevy Venture/Pontiac Transport/Olds Silhouette.

[Oz]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I'm basing my "travel worries" on is just what the media says But surely there's a little truth in there.

Surely you realise just how badly you contradicted 99.9% of your previous statements. Either practice what you preach or stop preaching.

[Solomon219]

I'm just tryin' to keep the Mod happy... s'Not good to have a Mod as an enemy.

[Heep]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

Now I don't disagree that you may have more freedom ('specially regarding weed) and I have to admire your medical care, but don't you guys pay a SHITload in taxes?

I'm not bein' a smart-ass, I'm really wondering. I heard somewhere that it was like, 60%, but why listen to them (whoever they were) when I can ask a Canuck himself?!?

Also, if you don't mind, can you give me a few examples of other freedoms that Canadians have, that Americans don't?

I'm not positive what tax rates on income and stuff are, but New Brunswick, where I live, has basically the highest Canadian sales tax at 15%...Alberta has 0.000% sales tax...lucky bastards

All I can think of right now regarding freedoms are the "naughty" ones like recreational marijuana, legal to buy liquor at 19, 18 in some provinces, and topfreedom for women in Ontario.

[Heep]

Originally Posted by boingo82

Did you know that the foreskins are sold to bio-tech research companies and cosmetic companies to be made into skin grafts and face creams?

Ew!

I've heard the excuse that it keeps the penis cleaner cause stuff can't get trapped under foreskin, but other than that I've never heard any reason why anyone should do it, or would want to do it. By the sounds of it it's far less common here...I can't say I've asked very many people about it or anything, but I'm uncut, and as far as I know every one of my friends is uncut...

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Heep

Ew!

I've heard the excuse that it keeps the penis cleaner cause stuff can't get trapped under foreskin, but other than that I've never heard any reason why anyone should do it, or would want to do it. By the sounds of it it's far less common here...I can't say I've asked very many people about it or anything, but I'm uncut, and as far as I know every one of my friends is uncut...

Well of course lots of body parts require cleaning, but they're worth having so we keep them, teeth and hair for example. And quite frankly women can get pretty funky if they don't clean themselves, but no one advocates clitoridectomy or infibulation (removal of the labia) to make them "cleaner".
As far as I know the rate dropped sharply in Canada once the health care system stopped paying for it, which they did after finding no medical benefits.
The face cream think was the factor that grossed out my husband the most, I think. I mean, he isn't an organ donor because he's uncomfortable with anyone else using his body parts. So the idea of wrinkly old ladies rubbing his penis on their faces is repulsive, to say the least.

[Jimster]

Most people in this thread, either don't know what they are talking about, or are trying to cover up that they don't know what they are talking about That includes both sides of this argument.

Marky and Boingo seem to be the only ones with a grasp on what is going on here, rather than just pure and simple bias

[Oz]

Originally Posted by Jimster

Most people in this thread, either don't know what they are talking about, or are trying to cover up that they don't know what they are talking about That includes both sides of this argument.

Marky and Boingo seem to be the only ones with a grasp on what is going on here, rather than just pure and simple bias

Thanks for the insight there, Jimmy. Should we bow and scrape now or are you busy?
Fcuk off.

[blindside.AMG]

Originally Posted by Oz

Thanks for the insight there, Jimmy. Should we bow and scrape now or are you busy?
Fcuk off.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Oz

Thanks for the insight there, Jimmy. Should we bow and scrape now or are you busy?
Fcuk off.

1. Who is Marky?
2. I'm not really having the same argument that Oz is, so I don't see that me being right or wrong has anything to do w/ you, Oz.

[Jimster]

Marky is Heep- I usually think that most people know that


And Oz, You are fully entitled to an opinion, but really it simply comes across as a passion-blinded bias, the US has done bad and has it's weaknesses- but not everything about the damned place is shite, insults highlight a weak argument While Solomon is mixed up and contradicts himself constantly, all in all it makes the thread either difficult or pointless to follow. Oh well, at least people know how to use paragraphs in this thread

I like Rays point about the Third world as well

Learning is earning

[Oz]

Originally Posted by Jimster

Marky is Heep- I usually think that most people know that


And Oz, You are fully entitled to an opinion, but really it simply comes across as a passion-blinded bias, the US has done bad and has it's weaknesses- but not everything about the damned place is shite, insults highlight a weak argument While Solomon is mixed up and contradicts himself constantly, all in all it makes the thread either difficult or pointless to follow. Oh well, at least people know how to use paragraphs in this thread

I like Rays point about the Third world as well

Learning is earning

Much more constructive - thank you.

And my point was fairly consistant all the way through, with minimal personal attacks.