It's Official. *Read the disclaimer at the start of the thread!*

[Solomon219]

lol, if Gore had won at least SNL would have had a lot more material...

But you're right about the travel, that's one thing that really bothers me. I mentioned before that I hope to work overseas, but it's just too scary right now. The only place Americans are truly safe is here, and in light of 9/11... Dark times...

[Solomon219]

I don't think you can place ALLthe blame on Bush, though. He's got a very conserative cabinet, and frankly, do you really think he won the Presidency with intelligence or charm? It was all oil money and connections of "Daddy's". I personally think that Cheney is the one in charge of the country. It was kinda funny back during 9/11 how you could find Bush anywhere by turning on a news network, but Cheney was in always in "an undisclosed location".

[chicago_guy]

that just goes to show that we all could care less if bush was assassinated and that we want cheney to live. And I sure as hell know he didnt win through intelligence. Did you know that he said, "The majority of our imports come from other countries." and "To NASA, space is still a high priority."? And he thought mexican was a language.

[Solomon219]

I wasn't familiar with those "priceless" remarks. I bet he'd be shocked to learn that we speak English, and not American, as well...

But c'mon, he's still a good prez... He can fly a jet-fighter. What other world leader can do that. I can't do that. That's what being a president is all about.

Add five cups of sarcasm to the above statement, and mix WELL!

[Heep]

Originally Posted by entreri33

there is an easy solution if you dont like the USA then there is a vast majority of the planet you can go live in. You wont enjoy the freedoms you enjoy here though.

I disagree there...I'm willing to bet Canadians are more "free" (whatever that even means these days)

Originally Posted by blindside.AMG

So basically, you hate America the stereotype.

Exactly. That's all I can do when talking about America in general, and not just individuals. Unfortunately, from personal experience, America the stereotype is what I see 80% of the time I'm there.

Originally Posted by chicago_guy

I disagree with the withdrawal of U.S. troops, however. The US started it, and the U.S. will sure as hell finish it.

Now that is an attitude you should truly be proud of. I didn't support the initial US "invasion" into Iraq, but once started, you damn well better finish. I must applaud Bush for that, because America sure as hell didn't finish up in Afghanistan (was Clinton pres then?), as Canadian troops are still over there cleaning up after you guys. I think that's one of the main reasons why Cretien declined to join the US in Iraq, he assumed (and had a valid reason) that the US would sweep through and then Canada would be left there cleaning up for years.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

Well, first let me say that I AM circumcised, and it was for religious reasons. My parents are Christians, and they DID have a choice. When I was born the OB/GYN asked their preferance. In recent years though, I've seen a lot of uproar caused by the fact that physicians DIDN'T consult the parents, and went ahead with it. There've been several lawsuits over this, and I believe the parents won (and rightfully so!)..

It's not required by the Christian church. It was mandated in the Old Testament, but Jesus dying on the cross released Christians from all of those Old-Testament requirements. Such as the one in Leviticus saying you cannot have intercourse with a woman after her period until she sacrifices two turtle doves. There are a LOT of Old-Testament things people don't do anymore..
Anyhow, it says in the New Testament not to circ - whatever happened to that "made in God's image" and "don't mutilate his creation" thing? I think it's so ingrained in our culture now that a lot of people don't even question it, or they think they HAVE to because everyone else is. (If you are around 20-30 years old, then the national rate at the time of your birth was 75-90% - a lot of people wanted their children to "match" the others.

As for the reason it is prevalent in the US is because that the western world is still dominated by Judeo-Christian beliefs. Hence the reason we don't allow gay marriages (while quite a few European countries do; I could name about 13 right now) and the legalization of marijuana, even for medicinal purposes (which certain European countries have adopted for "recreational" purposes, along with harder drugs).

Actually you'd probably be surprised to find out that circ was popularized here starting in about 1850-something to "cure" masturbation, which was believed to cause almost everything from dementia to headaches to blood infection. Back at this time they would forcibly circumcise known masturbators without any anesthesia, as a form of punishment for masturbating. Females would have a clitoridectomy, (clitoris removed) to cure masturbation and other disorders.
One of the biggest proponents of circumcision was John Harvey Kellogg, founder of Kellog's cereals. He claimed that Kellogg brand cereals could cure minor masturbation, and recommended circ for more extreme cases. Herbert Graham also claimed that his crackers (graham crackers) and flour cured the chronic mastubator.

That's the reason it's still practiced. I personally don't believe that these Christian ideals will last too much longer. I feel that we're moving toward a more liberal, perhaps "agnostic" country. I'm a Christian, but I really don't believe this is a bad thing. Our Constution states that we have Freedom of Religion...but doesn't that give you freedom FROM religion as well?!
As an aside, there are quite a few websites out there documenting people who believe that they should have had the choice, not their parents, being as it was their body. They feel a loss. What they've discovered is that they can TECHNICALLY regrow the foreskin. This is involved using weights that you affix to the skin of you penis and it drags the skin down. Doing this often enough, long enough will cause the skin to lengthen, thus drawing down in a "hood". Men who have tried this have expressed an increased sensitivity (a petty debate that has been waged for some time regards the fact that if you are circumsised, you lose a lot of sensation, due to the fact that your exposed "member" is constantly rubbing against rough clothing, and not protected by the foreskin).

Oh, I am well aware of restoration. Unfortunately you can restore only some of the function of the foreskin, namely the function of covering the glans and protecting it from rubbing against clothing, which desensitizes it.
Unfortunately there are some unique parts, such as the 40,000-odd nerve endings and the Meissner's corpscules, (sp?) and the ridged bands and frenulum that cannot be restored.

..Boingo, I don't mean any offense to you, so please don't take any, but I noticed that you're from Utah (yeah, you know what's coming). Are you Mormon, by chance? If you are, what is their belief? If not, are you religious?

It's none of my business, if you don't want to answer. I was just curious because of the subject.

No offense taken, of course. I do reside in Utah, but I am not LDS. I am aethiest but actually fit in quite well here because I am a non-smoker and almost-never-drinker.
The book of Mormon actually condemns circ (Moroni 8:8), but I don't think most people realize that because the rate is about 90% here. (Nationally, the rate is 55% circ, with as low as 30% on the western coastal states.) People here get offended when someone has a tattoo, because they are "defiling God's creation" but not when someone chooses to CUT OFF pieces of their baby. Makes no sense.

The reason I brought this topic up in this thread is I'm reading a book examining the possible societal impact of RIC (routine infant circ). For example the disproportionately high rate of rape and murder that the US has compared to other prosperous countries. Did you know we're the only "developed" country that continues to circ the majority of its infants, in the face of medical fact? Only in Africa and Israel is circ as prevalent.

Anyway I was thinking about our foreign policy, and the fact that we think that as long as we're bigger and more powerful than a country, we can do whatever we want to them. I wonder what goes through the mind of a baby boy having part of his penis cut off without anesthesia. Maybe he is learning that as long as you are bigger and more powerful than someone (as the doctors are to him), you can take anything you want from them.
I know it is a long stretch. I just can't understand how anybody, even a parent, should be able to amputate parts of a healthy baby 'just because'. Don't we all have a basic right to our own, intact body, to do with as we please? If we as a country cannot respect that right, do not be surprised when we disregard the rights of other nations.

[TexasF355F1]

Originally Posted by boingo82

I just can't understand how anybody, even a parent, should be able to amputate parts of a healthy baby 'just because'. Don't we all have a basic right to our own, intact body, to do with as we please? If we as a country cannot respect that right, do not be surprised when we disregard the rights of other nations.

That question is answered quite easily. Parents do what they are use to and what they see fits. Hence, if the father is circumcised then the baby will follow suit. Parents usually do what they see is right or whether they want it done or not. I just don't understand why its such a big deal? If you don't want you son circumcised then don't cut it. But you can't tell other people how they should raise there own children and what they should and shouldn't do to them. The only thing ALL parents should do is be good to there kids and actually care about whats going on in there lives.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by TexasF355F1

That question is answered quite easily. Parents do what they are use to and what they see fits. Hence, if the father is circumcised then the baby will follow suit. Parents usually do what they see is right or whether they want it done or not. I just don't understand why its such a big deal? If you don't want you son circumcised then don't cut it. But you can't tell other people how they should raise there own children and what they should and shouldn't do to them. The only thing ALL parents should do is be good to there kids and actually care about whats going on in there lives.

Part of the fun of being in this country is that I can have an opinion on anything I want, and loudly so, if I want.
I'm not into "telling" people what to do, just informing them so they can make an educated decision. That way, if they DO decide to circ, they can at LEAST make sure the baby gets anesthesia. (between 60% and 75% have no anesthesia at all) In this country, it is illegal to perform surgery on a cat or dog or bird or whatever without pain relief, but not on newborns. Some doctors claim they can't feel pain. Anyone who's been near a baby knows that's BS.
Meanwhile, it's illegal to do any sort of analogous surgery on female babies. Only male babies are discriminated against.
And we can agree to disagree, but I personally would be pissed if ANY part of me was amputated for cosmetic reasons without my consent. A lot of men don't care, and a lot of men don't want to think about it. But I still think the choice should be up to the PERSON.

[Solomon219]

Originally Posted by boingo82

The reason I brought this topic up in this thread is I'm reading a book examining the possible societal impact of RIC (routine infant circ). For example the disproportionately high rate of rape and murder that the US has compared to other prosperous countries.

I'm interested in the title of this book, as it sounds like an interesting read. I'm always interested in the "other side" of the story, so that no-one may accuse me of possessing a lack of infromation. Truthfully, how can you form an educated opinion without examining all sides of the issue? Let me go ahead and ask, though: What is the correlation between circumcision and rape? The fact that the male was "traumatized" as an infant because his foreskin was cut? Does it go into the following quote, where males are bigger and more powerful and can subject lesser subjects (i.e. women) to their will? I've always seen rape as a power/control thing, but also as someone who has an intense hatred for women, so that he must humiliate them.

Originally Posted by boingo82

Anyway I was thinking about our foreign policy, and the fact that we think that as long as we're bigger and more powerful than a country, we can do whatever we want to them. I wonder what goes through the mind of a baby boy having part of his penis cut off without anesthesia. Maybe he is learning that as long as you are bigger and more powerful than someone (as the doctors are to him), you can take anything you want from them.

I haven't read this book of yours (though I'd like to) or seen any other studies, but I do believe there is intense pain, and that anesthesia should be used. However, I fail to see how this would have any lasting mental impact on the child, even sub-consciously. I do not believe that a child becomes "impressionable" until farther on in life than 8 weeks, unless it is an abuse that is repeated. Most people have trouble remembering things from before they were 3 years old. So does the book address this?

[Solomon219]

Originally Posted by Heep

I disagree there...I'm willing to bet Canadians are more "free" (whatever that even means these days)

Now I don't disagree that you may have more freedom ('specially regarding weed) and I have to admire your medical care, but don't you guys pay a SHITload in taxes?

I'm not bein' a smart-ass, I'm really wondering. I heard somewhere that it was like, 60%, but why listen to them (whoever they were) when I can ask a Canuck himself?!?

Also, if you don't mind, can you give me a few examples of other freedoms that Canadians have, that Americans don't?

[Oz]

Originally Posted by blindside.AMG

I don't think he was talking about the America Jr.'s (Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, etc.) which is probably what you were getting at with the BS statement. "Well, in Austrailia I can do everything you can in the US but without all the blah, blah, blah."

Doesn't bother me at all. Just proves my point about arrogance nicely. We don't need you as 'Big Brother', we don't think of you as 'Big Brother', get over your concept of your own self importance as a people.

[Oz]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

it's just too scary right now. The only place Americans are truly safe is here, and in light of 9/11... Dark times...

Go you independant scholarly thinker you! They've got you hook, line and sinker buddy.

[Dan_in_WA]

Originally Posted by Oz

Doesn't bother me at all. Just proves my point about arrogance nicely. We don't need you as 'Big Brother', we don't think of you as 'Big Brother', get over your concept of your own self importance as a people.

More blanket statements intended to cover anyone who lives under the US flag. I stand by what I said earlier. You rant against US citizens as a group, and direct it to individual US citizens.

You have no idea about who I am, yet I'm listed under your "Arrogant American" profile in your brain.

Not that I give a fuck. Hate on us all you want, just don't try to deny it - because it's obvious to anyone who reads your posts.

Go ahead and BAN ME. I'll never know, as there is no reason for me to ever come back anyway. Arguing on the 'net is like the Special Olympics.

As to the rest of the board, it's been nice BS'ing with you all!

[Solomon219]

Originally Posted by Oz

Go you independant scholarly thinker you! They've got you hook, line and sinker buddy.

Should I not be worried? I'm sure as hell not trying to set Americans up as martyrs, but this is a time where it's definitely NOT good to be American overseas, and this is because of the blanket American stereotype, not for anything the individual has done as a person. Even in Australia I'm sure there's quite a bit of anti-American sentiment going around (I've even seen some on AF ).

This sentiment has even been brought to America's shores. (i.e. 9/11) The chances of me ever being caught in a terrorist "incident" is remote, I know, but it's still something that sticks in your mind.

So what do you mean by the above quote? The terrorists have us "hook, line, and sinker"? That was their goal, yes, to cause civil unrest and a general fear in the populace. Should we NOT be affected? Just continue on as before, travelling overseas?

I think the world's view of Americans has changed, forever.

[TexasF355F1]

Originally Posted by boingo82

Part of the fun of being in this country is that I can have an opinion on anything I want, and loudly so, if I want.
I'm not into "telling" people what to do, just informing them so they can make an educated decision. That way, if they DO decide to circ, they can at LEAST make sure the baby gets anesthesia. (between 60% and 75% have no anesthesia at all) In this country, it is illegal to perform surgery on a cat or dog or bird or whatever without pain relief, but not on newborns. Some doctors claim they can't feel pain. Anyone who's been near a baby knows that's BS.
Meanwhile, it's illegal to do any sort of analogous surgery on female babies. Only male babies are discriminated against.
And we can agree to disagree, but I personally would be pissed if ANY part of me was amputated for cosmetic reasons without my consent. A lot of men don't care, and a lot of men don't want to think about it. But I still think the choice should be up to the PERSON.

I understand what your saying. Its just hard to leave something up to the person, when they have x amount of years until they can support themselves and their ideals. Parents usually do what they see is best. I was just stating my opinion on your opinion. I in no way wanted to offend you. I think I did, so I am sorry and I appologize.