It's Official. *Read the disclaimer at the start of the thread!*

[freakray]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

First things first, RyanGiorgio, NEVER ever ever ever put your pic on the 'net WITH your address, ESPECIALLY not a valid license, even if it is only a permit. There are a lot of "bad people" out there just waiting to create innocents like you a credit history, FREE OF CHARGE (for them at least...)! Just lucky your SS wasn't on there anywhere.

Second, thanks for getting back to me Jon! I just wanted to make sure we were good!

Oz, I agree with you that Americans are both ignorant and arrogant. I saw test results recently from a WORLDWIDE survey on world geography, and the US, if not the last, was right next to it. The countries who scored the highest were predominantly European (sorry, I don't remember how Canada placed). I DON'T agree with you that because people rely on us is because we CAUSE them to rely on us. I'm gonna take this back in history a little bit (and yes, feed you some more of my American superiority drivel) but remember WWI, remember WWII. Both of those wars we were RELUCTANT to enter, yet when we saw our fellow men being beaten down, being trampled by the likes of oppression, we COULDN'T stand idly by. (Paraphrased: We saved your asses.)

Now here's the clincher: NO WAR WAS EVER FOUGHT ON OUR SOIL! The closest it came was Pearl Harbor, and that's not even mainland. So our economy wasn't affected. It actually boomed. But the Europeans were decimated. They NEVER would have been able to rebuild (it still took years) if it hadn't been for the United State's financial backing. THAT, I believe, is where the root of loans and aid between foreign countries and the US came from.

Just to respond to these statements.

No war? Did you sleep in history class?
Did you forget the War of Independance or maybe the Civil War?
Before you try to tell me that you meant no wars involving other nations, keep in mind the War of Independance was fought against the British.

As for the American entry into WW2, I believe America was pushed into the war, it wasn't exactly voluntary.
Something about an attack on Pearl Harbour springs to mind.....

Answer me something, since your posts have me wondering something, how much have you travelled outside the USA?

[Solomon219]

I'm sorry, I didn't word that correctly. I had so many ideas going through my head, I couldn't type as fast as I thought. What I was getting at is the World Wars, where foreign countries needed our direct intervention, where they were ASKING for our help. This is where the lending came from, and has continued.

But let's do take this back to the Revolutionary and Civil Wars, we were a fledgling country, and we accepted the aid of those same foreign countries who decades later would be accepting aid from us! France figures directly into mind, in both wars, and the United Kingdom (Great Britain, Britannia, England? They change their name too much) made some quite substantial loans after the Civil War. Those loans are what brought America into the Industrial Revolution, enabling us to become the richest country in the world.

As far as being forced into the war, there is currently enough surviving evidence that the government knew, Eisenhower knew, every single detail about the attack on Pearl Harbor BEFORE IT HAPPENED! They'd decoded several Japanese messages. Why didn't they say anything? There was not enough war sentiment among the general populace to justify joining! There were quite a few dissenters! Solution? Allow them an attack on Hawaii (not mainland America), and that will stir the Americans up enough to justify anything the gov't wanted to do. There have been several books written on this topic.

I hope you weren't insulting my knowledge of history? It is my favorite subject.

As for traveling outside the country I have been to Canada, Great Britain, and Mexico for several weeks at a time. I've been through France, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Italy, and Spain staying for a few days in each on a European tour. I speak English, le Francais, und Deutsch. The last two haltingly, but I'm working on that. I also plan on taking Japanese next semester, and if time permits, get a smattering of Russian. My major is in International Economics at the University of Kentucky, and I plan on going to Law school to major in International Law. I'm currently a Junior, will be a Senior next fall, and will probably extend my undergraduate studies by a year or two to work on languages and take advantage of the Foreign Exchange type programs UK offers.

Why do you ask? Because of my reactionary views within the US, or the isolationist policies I feel we should adapt toward the rest of the world? I do not plan on living here after getting my Law degree, but would like to work in Germany, or perhaps France. (Incidentally the two countries America has the biggest beef with! COUNTING Afghanistan, North Korea, and Iraq!)

Freedom Fries...What a stupid idea.

Again, whaddya think? - S

[freakray]

I asked because too many Americans make declarations about America's greatness yet have never stepped foot outside America to even know why they are saying why America is great.

If you've never experienced a third world country, how can you know what conditions those people live in?
If you've never witnessed the desparation in person, how can you pass judgement on them and deny them food?

People in many third world countries see images of America on TV and in newspapers and it shows a rich prosperous country where everyone is happy and fed.
Do you blame them for asking America to help them?

Do the poor not always beg from the rich?

[Solomon219]

I'm not saying America is "great". I'm saying America is powerful because of GOOD decisions and GOOD investments that it's made over the course of it's entire history. When all the other older countries embraced tradition, we embraced the "manifest destiny", the new, the uncharted. Traditionally, most inventors and entrepreneurs come here to work.

You are correct, I've never visted a third-world country, but my major my Freshman and Sophomore years was Anthropology, so I have a background in this. I've also seen many documentaries. Two people in my German class are from South Africa, one white and one black. Yet in all my learning and discussions, I KNOW I haven't scraped the surface of this. You're right, I NEED to go there, but so should everyone else. It's so easy to turn off the TV or close the book on those horrible images, but how hard would it be in PERSON! You may close your eyes, but you cannot shut out the sounds. And I guarantee those pleadings and wailings would be in your memory the rest of your life. They would be in mine.

People in many third world countries see images of America on TV and in newspapers and it shows a rich prosperous country where everyone is happy and fed.
Do you blame them for asking America to help them?

America BROADCASTS these images! It's their form of mind-control, of "subliminal messaging"! They do it to their own PEOPLE!

"America is great, do not worry about anything, leave it in the hands of the chosen, gifted few, go out and spend, Uncle Sam will take care of you, Uncle Sam will protect you."

The fact is that many people in America are homeless and without food! Not the majority, like in other countries, but it exists! But no one will ever know because America does not want it's ugly underbelly to show.

It is not my intention to hurt these people, especially those in prison ( I say this because the majority of those jailed are INNOCENT! I saw a documentary the other night on South America, and their prisons are FILLED with children ranging from ages 8 to 17!!!) I just want to show that everyone who curses the Americans may be right, but they're more than willing to take advantages of our pocketbook. A truly brave, revolutionary country would say "Keep your money! We will make it on our own!" And whether they succeed or not is debatable, but they tried, they had the SPIRIT of America, the America that stood up to Great Britain and said "NO MORE!" I would gladly move to that country and aid in any way that I could. If needed, I'd stay in America, and send money or food.

I CARE about these people, I CARE about the world. But people have to be willing to help themselves first.

Am I getting my ideas across???

[TexasF355F1]

Heep, I have to hand it to you. That was an excellent read you wrote on page 3! You explained yourself very well as to be careful not to offend oneside or another.

Oh and Ryan, i see what your saying now.

[Oz]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

You are correct, I've never visted a third-world country, but my major my Freshman and Sophomore years was Anthropology, so I have a background in this. I've also seen many documentaries. Two people in my German class are from South Africa, one white and one black.

Great! Well, you must know all about it now.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

America is great

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I'm not saying America is "great".

Gonna make up yer bleeding mind sometime soon?

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I'm saying America is powerful because of GOOD decisions and GOOD investments that it's made over the course of it's entire history.

Incorrect. The primary reason for America's current wealth and hence position of power is it's sporadic and antagonistic participation in world conflicts over the past century. And taking advantage of that wherever possible.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I saw a documentary the other night

Well, it must be true.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

A truly brave, revolutionary country would say "Keep your money! We will make it on our own!" And whether they succeed or not is debatable, but they tried, they had the SPIRIT of America, the America that stood up to Great Britain and said "NO MORE!" I would gladly move to that country and aid in any way that I could. If needed, I'd stay in America, and send money or food.

And as soon as this country actively comes out with this, the first thing the US would do is place trade sanctions and embargoes on them and blacklist them in the 'unfriendly' countries book. Dooming them to failure in their endeavour.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I CARE about these people, I CARE about the world. But people have to be willing to help themselves first.

So basically, slap some aid programs together, and if the whole shitfight falls down around your ankles, they should have been trying harder to help themselves.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

Am I getting my ideas across???

Not particularly effectively, and those that do make it are so warped it scares me.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

There are a lot of "bad people" out there

I see. Where are all these 'bad' people exactly? Could you introduce me to some of them please? This prevailing FEAR mentality in the US is the primary cause of your gun control, use and abuse issues. I hope you've seen Bowling for Columbine to witness the truth in what I'm saying (particularly the section where M. Moore compares gun ownership VS crime in both Canada and the US)

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I DON'T agree with you that because people rely on us is because we CAUSE them to rely on us. I'm gonna take this back in history a little bit (and yes, feed you some more of my American superiority drivel) but remember WWI, remember WWII. Both of those wars we were RELUCTANT to enter, yet when we saw our fellow men being beaten down, being trampled by the likes of oppression, we COULDN'T stand idly by. (Paraphrased: We saved your asses.)

I was being a little bit liberally sweeping in that statement, but don't flatter yourselves. You joined that war at the point where it was most likely you could profit enormously from joining the allies. I have no illusion if Hitler wasn't known for such atrocious acts and had a better $$$ proposition that Italy/Germany/Japan/US would have been the 'Allies'.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

So our economy wasn't affected. It actually boomed. But the Europeans were decimated. They NEVER would have been able to rebuild (it still took years) if it hadn't been for the United State's financial backing.

Once again, you pre-emptively prove my point. Yes, the US profited enormously from the devestation in other countries. And BULLSHIT they couldn't have rebuilt themselves.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I think that power is rightfully DESERVED! We really have done some great and wonderful things. The problem, I believe, is that this deserved power is wielded by UNdeserving individuals. What do you think of that? America as a whole has earned it's power (it's never been stolen it, has it?) but the leadership today are fairly incompetent.

What in fucks name have you done to deserve your current position of world power, wealth and dominance? For a country so obsessively democratic, it doesn't seem like there was any vote to instigate this current situation. But yes, correct, there are a majority of undeserving individuals currently in power abusing it (witness the Prez).

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I mentioned earlier that Americans should enlist in their local militias, and if you don't have one, start one. This is because I smell a revolution in the not-so-distant future. The American populace is NOT happy with the way the Constitution has been bastardized.

Fucking brilliant solution! Try to overthrow the US government with local level militias made up of semi trained gun toting hicks. Seriously, what kind of people do you think these militias attract? I would really like to know what this revolution you 'smell' smells like. Chicken? And the prevelance of militia membership is once again becuase of the sensationalised fear mentality of the majority of the US populace.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

When all the other older countries embraced tradition, we embraced the "manifest destiny", the new, the uncharted. Traditionally, most inventors and entrepreneurs come here to work.

And just where the bollocks did you pull that little factoid about the great inventor/entrepeneur migration from?


Just remain aware, I'm attacking the logical progression and fact behind your ideas and concepts, and not you as a person.

[Dented92Cavalier]

Heep, that's a damng good rant. I couldn't have said it better myself.

And Oz, omg.. I couldn't stop laughing

[freakray]

People in many third world countries see images of America on TV and in newspapers and it shows a rich prosperous country where everyone is happy and fed.
Do you blame them for asking America to help them?

Oz, I said that, he was quoting me


Solomon219
The documentaries we see on American TV are complete and utter bullshit!
You are still being spoon fed by the media, even in these documentaries, they are showing you what THEY WANT you to see and believe.

It's good to hear you have some South Africans in your school, now why don't you spend some time with them learning about the country, although, if they are here only to study, they are likely from that sheltered group of that have never seen the streets of Soweto or Khayalitsha in person.
Either way, learn from them, you'd be surprised how different SA is to the image the media has fed you.

[Heep]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

remember WWI, remember WWII. Both of those wars we were RELUCTANT to enter, yet when we saw our fellow men being beaten down, being trampled by the likes of oppression, we COULDN'T stand idly by. (Paraphrased: We saved your asses.)

I can't recall how the US got involved in WWI, but whether the US knew about Pearl Harbor ahead of time or not does not confront the fact that it took a direct assault on the US before they decided to join the war effort.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

This is amazing to me. These are real men, women, and CHILDREN! Let me drive it closer to home. Say your neighbor is next door, and say he has some children. If you knew he was sexually abusing his children, PHYSICALLY abusing them, to the point of cutting off fingers or limbs, or just plain killing them, are you saying you'd watch with an impassive countenance? Personally, I'd kill the fucker myself!

I would call the police, who legally have the authority to step in. The US does not have that authority over Iraq. Before I move on to the next point though, let me say WOW, for you struck an all new chord in my brain. It just dawned on me that perhaps the extremely high US gun death rate is not primarily related to "bad murders" (such as killing someone for honking at them in traffic) as I and most others had assumed; instead, the majority of the US gun deaths are probably "righteous murders", such as in that situation or the guy that went around killing abortion doctors. People may be horrible, but that does not give others the right to kill them.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

THE UNITED STATES MEDIA IS STATE-RUN!!! Everything they say or do INFLUENCES your thoughts.

How true that is. I was reminded of something one of your leaders (can't remember whom) said when Canada declined to enter the Iraq war. He said something to the effect of "If Canada was being attacked we would help you out, and yet you deny us!" That phrase did HUGE damage to the US opinion of Canada, and yet it was entirely twisted. Lets break it down. "If Canada was being attacked..." That statement implies that Canada is the defender, and that countryA is the offender. In that case I'm sure the US would help out. However, if Canada was the offender attacking countryA, I'm not so sure the US would be willing to help. That is the situation with Iraq. The US is the offender and Iraq is the defender, thus the statement by that man is completely twisted out of context and did irrevocable harm to the US opinion of Canada.

Originally Posted by Solomon219

Freedom Fries...What a stupid idea.

Side note: Was that ever made official? That is one of the most racist, or should I say "nationalityist" things I've ever heard...

Originally Posted by Oz

I hope you've seen Bowling for Columbine to witness the truth in what I'm saying (particularly the section where M. Moore compares gun ownership VS crime in both Canada and the US)

Interesting side note, Bowling for Columbine has been hugely disassembled and criticized, and labelled as false by the American public (which perhaps it is, but it still makes a point) because it is "anti-American", yet other documentaries that are just as, or more, full of holes that promote America get defended as absolute truth.

[Oz]

Originally Posted by freakray

Oz, I said that, he was quoting me

Fixed

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

F...
This is amazing to me. These are real men, women, and CHILDREN! Let me drive it closer to home. Say your neighbor is next door, and say he has some children. If you knew he was sexually abusing his children, PHYSICALLY abusing them, to the point of cutting off fingers or limbs, or just plain killing them, are you saying you'd watch with an impassive countenance? Personally, I'd kill the fucker myself! That scum does not deserve to live! Fuck the trial, because if you know for a FACT that he has done this (not your "reasoning" but personal eye-witness accounts, and HUMAN remains in the backyard) you are doing society-at-large, and subsequent generations, a favor...

This is another thread and another debate, but what do you think of the fact that in America it's not only legal but POPULAR to cut parts of the penis off juvenile and infant males? Can't cut off their fingers, can't cut off their toes, but you can amputate part of their most intimate parts, and almost always without anesthesia.
This has no medical indication (READ: the part isn't diseased, it is healthy, and the surgery has been shown to have no medical benefits) and is almost always done NOT for religious reasons.
Neither is it common in any European or Asian county, in fact it is illegal in many.
I would call that physical abuse, wouldn't you? That's one of the most bothersome things to me about this country.

[TexasF355F1]

Originally Posted by boingo82

This is another thread and another debate, but what do you think of the fact that in America it's not only legal but POPULAR to cut parts of the penis off juvenile and infant males? Can't cut off their fingers, can't cut off their toes, but you can amputate part of their most intimate parts, and almost always without anesthesia.
This has no medical indication (READ: the part isn't diseased, it is healthy, and the surgery has been shown to have no medical benefits) and is almost always done NOT for religious reasons.
Neither is it common in any European or Asian county, in fact it is illegal in many.
I would call that physical abuse, wouldn't you? That's one of the most bothersome things to me about this country.

I'm glad I don't have foreskin. True, we don't have a choice, but who really cares that much? Its doesn't really affect anything.

[Solomon219]

Originally Posted by boingo82

This is another thread and another debate, but what do you think of the fact that in America it's not only legal but POPULAR to cut parts of the penis off juvenile and infant males? Can't cut off their fingers, can't cut off their toes, but you can amputate part of their most intimate parts, and almost always without anesthesia.
This has no medical indication (READ: the part isn't diseased, it is healthy, and the surgery has been shown to have no medical benefits) and is almost always done NOT for religious reasons.
Neither is it common in any European or Asian county, in fact it is illegal in many.
I would call that physical abuse, wouldn't you? That's one of the most bothersome things to me about this country.

Well, first let me say that I AM circumcised, and it was for religious reasons. My parents are Christians, and they DID have a choice. When I was born the OB/GYN asked their preferance. In recent years though, I've seen a lot of uproar caused by the fact that physicians DIDN'T consult the parents, and went ahead with it. There've been several lawsuits over this, and I believe the parents won (and rightfully so!).

As for the reason it is prevalent in the US is because that the western world is still dominated by Judeo-Christian beliefs. Hence the reason we don't allow gay marriages (while quite a few European countries do; I could name about 13 right now) and the legalization of marijuana, even for medicinal purposes (which certain European countries have adopted for "recreational" purposes, along with harder drugs).

That's the reason it's still practiced. I personally don't believe that these Christian ideals will last too much longer. I feel that we're moving toward a more liberal, perhaps "agnostic" country. I'm a Christian, but I really don't believe this is a bad thing. Our Constution states that we have Freedom of Religion...but doesn't that give you freedom FROM religion as well?!

As an aside, there are quite a few websites out there documenting people who believe that they should have had the choice, not their parents, being as it was their body. They feel a loss. What they've discovered is that they can TECHNICALLY regrow the foreskin. This is involved using weights that you affix to the skin of you penis and it drags the skin down. Doing this often enough, long enough will cause the skin to lengthen, thus drawing down in a "hood". Men who have tried this have expressed an increased sensitivity (a petty debate that has been waged for some time regards the fact that if you are circumsised, you lose a lot of sensation, due to the fact that your exposed "member" is constantly rubbing against rough clothing, and not protected by the foreskin).

If you're interested in more of that you can just Google the topic, there's quite a few resources out there.



Now, as for the reason I originally came back into the thread, I just found this website and thought I'd post it. It's pretty fucked up. It's a "Christian" group who has based all of their ideals upon America's founding fathers.

http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/tos.php

Think this is a cult?!?
Typical American extremists, huh? (Yeah, I know...this commin' from me )


Boingo, I don't mean any offense to you, so please don't take any, but I noticed that you're from Utah (yeah, you know what's coming). Are you Mormon, by chance? If you are, what is their belief? If not, are you religious?

It's none of my business, if you don't want to answer. I was just curious because of the subject.

[freakray]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

Well, first let me say that I AM circumcised, and it was for religious reasons. My parents are Christians, and they DID have a choice. When I was born the OB/GYN asked their preferance. In recent years though, I've seen a lot of uproar caused by the fact that physicians DIDN'T consult the parents, and went ahead with it. There've been several lawsuits over this, and I believe the parents won (and rightfully so!).

Interesting point.
Now what if I were to tell you that whether you're circumscised or not has nothing to with Christianity.
The Gentiles were Christians, they did not practice circumcision, in fact, the practice of circumcision comes from the Jewish religion originally.
It was the Jews that 'converted' to Christianity that continued the practice originally.

If you doubt me, start reading the Bible a little more carefully, it's in there.

BTW, I too grew up with Christian parents and with an uncle who is a ordained minister, I've had a lot of exposure to this debate and the Bible does not state to be Christian you must be circumcised.

[Solomon219]

Point taken. I'll be the first to admit you probably have a better background in this than me. Let me direct you to a website that is very well-written, and was eye-opening to me:

http://www.noharmm.org/christianparent.htm

It's also interesting that the majority of Christians are proponents for MALE circumcision, but if the topic turns to FEMALE circumcision, it's an "evil" act that only "backwards" and "uncivilized" people practice.