Damn Those Pesky Muslims!

[TRD2000]

NO, TO BE HONEST I HAVEN'T BOTHERED TO READ A LOT OF THE POSTS. BUT I ONLY QUOTED ONE, AND I ONLY MADE AN OBSERVATION, WHICH IS MY OPINION.

PERHAPS YOU NEED TO KEEP YOUR ARGUMENT ON TRACK. I AM NOT TRYING TO ARGUE BUT IF THATS WHAT YOU'RE DOING PERHAPS RATHER THAN BASELESSLY INSULT THOSE WHO CONTRIBUTE BECAUSE OF AN IGNORANT ASSUMPTION THAT YOU KNOW THERE KNOWLEGE BASE AND THEY ARE "FOOLS", YOU SHOULD IN FACT ESTABLISH SOME FACTUAL BASE RATHER THAN SIMPLY PROVIDING YOUR OPINION, AND RELYING ON YOUR OWN OPINION OF YOUR SELF YOU MUST HOLD, THAT YOUR OPINION IS WORTH MORE THAN OTHERS. pERHAPS IF ANYTHING THIS DEMONSTRATES MY OBSERVATION OF CHRISTIANS BELIEVING THEY ARE BETTER THAN NON-CHRISTIANS?

ALSO TO THEN EXTRAPOLATE TO THE FACT THAT CHRISTIANS GO TO WAR AGAINST EACH OTHER MORE, IS THIS REALLY A FAULT IN THE MUSLIM SYSTEM THAT THEY BELIEVE THEY SHOULD NOT KILL ONE ONOTHER OR IS IT SIMPLY A DEMONSTRATION OF THE WILL OF CHRISTIANS TO IMPOSE THEIR BELIEFS AND SYSTEMS ON OTHER PEOPLE, OR PERHAPS EVEN THEIR LOVE OF WAR? PERHAPS EVEN DISLOYALTY.... iF ANYTHING I THINK IT COULD BE SEEN AS A BENEFIT OF THE MUSLIM RELIGION THAT IT FORBIDS THEM FROM FIGHTING WITH ONE ANOTHER. PERHAPS IF MORE RELIGIONS WERE LIKE THAT THE WORLD COULD BE PEACEFULL....

BEFORE YOU START SLINGING RANDOM INSULTS AND BASELESS ALLGATIONS AT ME AGAIN PERHAPS YOU SHOULD THINK CAREFULLY ABOUT WHAT I HAVE SAID, AND STOP TRYING TO IMPLY THAT I HAVE GONE OFF ON ANY MORE OF YOUR RANDOM PATHS.

[twospirits]

ummm excuse me, but why are you yelling (caps).

TS out

[syr74]

Well, looks like I hit a nerve. And, the "not fighting" is not absolute, it generally only applies to helping those of us who are not muslim to fight muslims. So, it doesn't work out all that great.

I don't know though TRD, is it a fault that muslims often believe that nom matter what another muslim does to an infidel if he does it in the name of Islam then another muslim should do nothing to stop him. Doesn't sound like the greatest idea to me.

[TRD2000]

i dunno, good question, but i guess you could also look at the number of (largely christian) western countries that do nothing when some western countries invade other countries and violate human rights.
anyway this is still a long way from my original observation on attitudes shown. unfortunately most religions seem to have a "i'm better than you because i'm (insert religion here)!" attitude, it's definately not unique to muslims.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by syr74

Well, looks like I hit a nerve. And, the "not fighting" is not absolute, it generally only applies to helping those of us who are not muslim to fight muslims. So, it doesn't work out all that great.

I don't know though TRD, is it a fault that muslims often believe that nom matter what another muslim does to an infidel if he does it in the name of Islam then another muslim should do nothing to stop him. Doesn't sound like the greatest idea to me.

You are simply wrong my friend. God FORBIDS to attack the innocence no matter who they are. If a muslim is attacking a christian for no reason then they must punish the muslim by law. Read the Abbasid emipire. It is a duty for the muslims to protect the ppl of the good book. Thats what we call the Christians and the Jews. You think i'm gonna sit here and let the muslims attack another person of what they believe? God tells us to respect one another and respect the ppl of the good book. He also permits us to marry the christians and the jews.So if he permits that, it wouldn't make sense to go harm the christians and the jews. God only teaches us in SELF DEFENSE! We're not the aggressors. If someone like Bin Laden comes along then muslims must take action into the laws of Islam. And for you to go say Saddam is not a muslim? You have no right to tell ppl who they are or question there belief. No right whatsoever. As a muslim it is a sin to tell a muslim hes a bad muslim.We never go around saying theres bad muslims. WE just say that they're following in the wrong path. If a muslim tells another muslim that hes a bad muslim, then he has to renew his faith. Simply stated in the Qur'an. Best scholars my ass.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

Trust me I was on the site you gave me. Not all my questions can be answered using your link.

You have to ask the scholars. They can answer almost anything about Islam.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by mellowboy

You are simply wrong my friend. God FORBIDS to attack the innocence no matter who they are. If a muslim is attacking a christian for no reason then they must punish the muslim by law. Read the Abbasid emipire. It is a duty for the muslims to protect the ppl of the good book. Thats what we call the Christians and the Jews. You think i'm gonna sit here and let the muslims attack another person of what they believe? God tells us to respect one another and respect the ppl of the good book. He also permits us to marry the christians and the jews.So if he permits that, it wouldn't make sense to go harm the christians and the jews. God only teaches us in SELF DEFENSE! We're not the aggressors. If someone like Bin Laden comes along then muslims must take action into the laws of Islam. And for you to go say Saddam is not a muslim? You have no right to tell ppl who they are or question there belief. No right whatsoever. As a muslim it is a sin to tell a muslim hes a bad muslim.We never go around saying theres bad muslims. WE just say that they're following in the wrong path. If a muslim tells another muslim that hes a bad muslim, then he has to renew his faith. Simply stated in the Qur'an. Best scholars my ass.

I think you need to rethink what you just said. You are telling me nothing that I have not hear before, but talk is cheap my friend. If someone like Osama Bin laden comes along muslims are supposed to do something about it, but seldom actually do.

And, I am not going to go into incidentals like wether you can call somebosy bad or not on this board because frankly, nobody but you, me and others like us knows or cares (emphasis on the cares part here) It is simply the easiest way for me to describe the discussions I have had and as I am not muslim this "rule" does not apply to me.

And that is the biggest problem with the typical muslim in America today btw. They talk a great fight and can argue you to death. But, when it comes time for action there is nobody home. And, when muslims do argue they argue useless incidentals like the above.

Want to discuss incidentals. I own a Qu'ran too (yeah, yeah, techinically it is not in Arabic so it isn't a true Qu'ran..whatever.)

Qu'ran 4:089 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they disbelieved, so that you might be alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly in Allah's way, but if they turn back, then sieze them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or helper.

The first part of that says to not even associate with non-muslims. But, more than that the second part says that anyone who converts away from islam is to be killed. Do you believe anybody who chooses to convert away should be killed? Remember, were talking clear cut rules here just like the "bad muslim" bit.

See, I know the rules too. The problem is you expect me to discuss these things as though they apply to me. They don't.

[mellowboy]

Ok guys dont listen to SYR74 no matter how much he "studied" Islam. Mistranslation is the key of leading ppl to believe in the wrong path.

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/eng...hFatwaID=51761

Very well respected scholars there. This tells you what we say about violence.


As for this thread has NOTHING TO DO WHAT any of us is talkin about. I think we should stick to the subject.

[syr74]

I thought that might be the response I would get

[mellowboy]

Yeh since you're mr. know it all. I'm done talkin to you big shot. Peace.

[Raz_Kaz]

syr74, please don't cut out the most important parts of those verses. Once you read the whole verse then youunderstand why it is said, anyone can easily cut out what they wanna hear....I can recommend you an expert at that, go see Micheal Moore.
And about the whole muslims not taking care of Osama, I'd like to see the people who are outraged at Bush's lies and wrong wars try and stop him....not so easy now is it?

[lazysmurff]

i think you all seriously missed the point.

we arent arguing about what one religion says or not. we're arguing about our government, that currently claims to be bringing democracy and freedom to a country ahlfway across the globe, denying basic freedoms and rights to a group of people becuase of a religion they practice. wrong. period. end of discussion.

[fredjacksonsan]

I still think that countries have a right to have whatever form of government they want. The US installing a democratic government will end badly I think, just like it did when the US helped to install the Ayatollah Khomeini, and Saddam himself.

[Cbass]

Originally Posted by syr74

I think you need to rethink what you just said. You are telling me nothing that I have not hear before, but talk is cheap my friend. If someone like Osama Bin laden comes along muslims are supposed to do something about it, but seldom actually do.

It is a foregone conclusion that an individual like Bin Laden if he is still alive, is surrounded by followers who will protect him from any such attempts, and shield him from the public eye.

Much the same as Hussein, I'm sure he doesn't travel openly in Iraq, it would surely put him in a comprimising situation where he might be killed or captured.

Originally Posted by syr74

Want to discuss incidentals. I own a Qu'ran too (yeah, yeah, techinically it is not in Arabic so it isn't a true Qu'ran..whatever.)

Qu'ran 4:089 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they disbelieved, so that you might be alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly in Allah's way, but if they turn back, then sieze them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or helper.

The first part of that says to not even associate with non-muslims. But, more than that the second part says that anyone who converts away from islam is to be killed. Do you believe anybody who chooses to convert away should be killed? Remember, were talking clear cut rules here just like the "bad muslim" bit.

See, I know the rules too. The problem is you expect me to discuss these things as though they apply to me. They don't.

First, I'd like to know who published your Qu'ran and, and who translated.

Second, I'd like you to read this, it addresses the specific verse you mention.

http://www.proislam.com/column_quran_violent.htm

Here's a little snippet addressing the passage you cited.

Originally Posted by proislam.com

“...slay (enemies] wherever you find them!" -- (4: 89).

This line does look extremely violent. It is difficult to imagine a viable explanation for such a statement. Indeed, can there even be such a justification? Well, let us take a look at the following line:

"Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.” -- (4: 90).

The idea that this is “proof” that Islam is violent then is preposterous. The second line is crucial to the message of the text; even in times of war, soldiers must observe the laws of compassion and reason as dictated by the Qu’ran. One wonders why pundits like Jerry Falwell and Ann Coulter do not come across these lines in their search for the truth:

[mellowboy]

Hey CBASS GOOD SITE!