Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[wiswind]

Make SURE to RELEASE the fuel pressure at the fuel rail pressure test point.....in order to avoid getting sprayed in the face with gasoline.


Rear connector for fuel filter should have a "duck bill" clip.....remove clip and the line comes right off.
FRONT crome connector.....there is a metal "retainer" clip.....then you need a 3/8" (or 5/16" either should work).....you slide the sleeve up inside the crome cup that is over the fuel filter nipple.....push the sleeve up inside there as far as you can......to release the clips inside the crome cup.......pull the crome cup OFF....
I know that this sounds easier than it realy is....why they had to go the Fort Knox method for the front connector and so easy for the back one......I don't know.
Maybe 1 engineer designed rear connection and another did the front.
How either is better than just a simple hose clamp.....I don't know.

[tomj76]

From what I recall fuel pressure is checked by:

1) Make sure that the fuel pump is working... (Key on, engine off, P>35 psi)
2) Make sure the fuel filter is OK... (Key on, engine on, idle speed, 35psi<P<45 psi)

The regulator maintains a constant pressure over the injectors. The vacuum line allows the regulator to sense the pressure on the injector outlet. Therefor, at conditions where the manifold vacuum is high, the fuel pressure will drop. When the vacuum line is disconnected from the regulator the pressure will remain effectively unchanged. If it drops a lot, then that would indicate a fuel supply problem (filter or pump).

3) Check the regulator with the vacuum line in place by reving the engine and watching the fuel pressure modulate. Then check it again by disconnecting the vacuum line, reving the engine to see it stay steady.

4) Check the fuel pressure doesn't drop too quickly after turning with the fuel pump turned off. It shouldn't drop more than 5 psi over a 10 minuite period.

I'll take a at the troubleshooting guide for the exact conditions and specs in these tests.

[uzzo2]

Originally Posted by searcherrr

Ok I tried to replace the fucking fuel filter today and after 4 hours of wrestling with the damn thing and a trip back to get a fuel disconnect tool that fits the got damn thing will not come off of the front side stainless-steel connector line. I even invited the neighbor over to give it a shot cause he'd done it on his and he couldn't get it off either. It would not fucking budge for the life of either of us.

Something very odd though. The rear line just slid right off like someone had fucking lubed it with KY. The retaining clip doesn't do anything and to me it does not feel like this line is secure under pressure, though there are no leaks either..... but this could explain why sometimes I swear I smell fuel from that side of the van after it has sat for a while or even while out and about. Could this be my pressure problem?

I put the fucking filter back on.

Tested again with FPR vac line off...... now pressure goes up to 40 PSI from 30 PSI every single time.

At idle and at accel to spec test rpms the psi remains FLAT at 30psi and does not move at all.

WTF?

I am going on vacation for 4 days and forgetting this bullshit. I hope I have some good n nice n sweet replies to read when I get back. lol omg I want to shoot this thing with a rocket so bad.

my vote is for a rocket propelled grenade launcher, i would have already obliterated mine by now, but alas i hear there is a shortage on those suckers. apparantly al qaida has dibbs, sorry man, i feel your pain. if you're coming through GA on your vacation please stop by and see me. maybe we can figure out a way to demolish both of them at one time on the cheap.

[tripletdaddy]

I'm really, really, really sorry for your pain man, BUT....
I'm really, really, really sorry, BUT.......
that filter change from hell was just the cherry on top of your unbelievably, horrendously awful vehicle rebuild!?!

THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST THING I'VE EVER READ ON THE FORUM!!!

If there was some way to make that into a Youtube video! That would have been priceless!

Have you seen or heard of the frustrated office worker who just had it with his computer, because try after try after try, he could not get his work to print up on the network printer. Well this 6', 300lb guy rips his computer and monitor off his desk, keyboard and mouse crash to the floor and drags them by the wires and clearing stuff off his desk. He nearly hurls the monitor as he hauls all of it 15 some feet and jams the monitor screen into their photocopier and makes copies of the screen!!!

If I could, I could watch that all day long.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tripletdaddy

I'm really, really, really sorry for your pain man, BUT....
I'm really, really, really sorry, BUT.......
that filter change from hell was just the cherry on top of your unbelievably, horrendously awful vehicle rebuild!?!

THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST THING I'VE EVER READ ON THE FORUM!!!

If there was some way to make that into a Youtube video! That would have been priceless!

Have you seen or heard of the frustrated office worker who just had it with his computer, because try after try after try, he could not get his work to print up on the network printer. Well this 6', 300lb guy rips his computer and monitor off his desk, keyboard and mouse crash to the floor and drags them by the wires and clearing stuff off his desk. He nearly hurls the monitor as he hauls all of it 15 some feet and jams the monitor screen into their photocopier and makes copies of the screen!!!

If I could, I could watch that all day long.

I'm back from my fishing trip that wasn't so relaxing, but was 50/50 on fun. Still better than dealing with the van.

tripletdaddy - I wish I could've made you laugh some other kind of way, but I'm glad that at least I have provided some people with "some" entertainment. At least thats 1 positive out of all this crap.

Yes, I've seen that video a couple of times. Almost as priceless as the one where the guy starts smashing his keyboard and then uses it like a wrestler uses a folding chair to smash the monitor onto the floor. Priceless.

I read the reply you wrote in the other thread. I guess because the psi was/is at the bottom of the spec (28-30 psi) and then 28 psi under load that it was a bad fuel pump.

I don't really understand how I can't at least have a pump thats going bad with it at bottom spec. I ran this by my trusted shop and they don't think the pump is bad either.

uzzo2 - Yeap. Gotta get one of those rocket launchers.

wiswind - O voice of wisdom.... save us from the fires of hell.... sigh. Thanks man. I know and I'm glad to be reminded to release fuel pressure cause just 1 more foul up like GAS in the FACE during this debacle may just push me over the edge into "losing it land" like the computer smashing dudes.

It is definitely Fort Knox on the front connector as it will not budge at all. Maybe its solidified in there and the spring thingies just won't move cause of it. I'm gonna try to see if I can loosen them up with a small flat head screwdriver 1 side then the other and then see if the fuel line disconnecting tool will work. I can barely see when I tilt the front side connector downward to see down it there are like 2 parallel straight clips holding the filter on.

So here's the plan for today:
1. I do not plan to give taking the filter off much effort at all if I cannot budge the 2 parellel clips holding the front line on.

2. If #1 fails which I'm sure it will beautifully I will use a new clip from the new filter to put on the rear connection hoping this solves my loose line issue and maybe just fucking MAYBE this was my whole problem as the old clip was not keeping the rear line secure/stationary.

I can only hope that the fuel shooting out is due to the rear line thing and not damage to the front line. God help me. Here I go. Post back soon.

[searcherrr]

The heat stopped me from trying #1 so I went straight to #2 and put a new clip on there and wa-la success. No spewing gas everywhere. I will just drive it like the shop said and see what happens and I will continue to leave the a/c ON..... which isn't a problem in 95 degree heat and 90% humidity in this New Orleans, LA metro area anyway.

As time goes on I'll post back. I'll test to see if the stall condition went away or not by having a "good clip" on the rear connection of the fuel filter when I go drive it sometime.

For the sake of submitting and completely giving in to Murphy's law and because usually things happen opposite of what you want or say I'm betting that the problem is not fixed and that driving it around for a while will not fix it. But we shall see.

A big fucking "WHEW" for now.

EDIT: I forgot to add that fuel pressure did slightly go UP from previous tests to a steady 31-32psi after I put the new clip on back of the fuel filter line. Removing vac line from FPR raises psi steadily (not fast like before) to about 39-40psi repeatedly over 3 tests. I revved the engine to the rev limit by hand in the engine bay while I watched the fuel pressure gauge and it remained 29 - 32psi and really only hit 29 psi when I let off the accelerator momentarily which would seem right to me cause it came back to 31psi at idle.

So far the moral of the story (which has not ended yet i'm sure) is to make sure that rear fuel filter connection clip is in good shape and replace it every time you replace your fuel filter which is what the manual recommends anyway. I know whoever did my fuel filter last time did not replace it.

[searcherrr]

IDEA: If the fuel pump screen/strainer was clogged couldn't you get it unclogged by using Seafoam or B-12 Chemtool? Usually the idea behind using this stuff is to have a full tank of gas to clean the injectors right.... but what if I intended to clean the screen/strainer.... wouldn't you put it in when the tank is at its lowest amount of gas so that the chemical additive is more potent? What ya think? Anybody?

I know I know... I'm trying to clean the screen without dropping the tank... the only reason I ask about this idea is because 1 time I used the B-12 Chemtool and I used a plastic pen to hold the gas spout open so I could pour it in. Afterwards I noticed that the pen had started to "chemically melt".... so that B-12 Chemtool is some serious shit! What ya'll think of the idea?

[96wWindstar180K]

searcherrr
In response to your private message. I had my pump done. I had just filled it with gas and didnt want to mess with it. The way I was able to identify the problem was using the fuel pressure tester with key on engine off. It should have read about 34 lbs I believe and mine got progressivly worse. I would turn the key to the on position and check and it was like 15 lbs. Turning the key on and off a bunch of times would bring it up to pressure. Thats not how its supposed to work though. Its a shame my daughter wrecked the car becuase thats new too. vbmenu_register("postmenu_5758829", true);

[96wWindstar180K]

searcherrr
I just read your post about fuel pressure test. I dont understand your procedure. You should only turn on the key once and when the fuel pump stops running it should be at pressure. If you have to turn off and on to get it to pressure the pump is bad. The Fpr disconnected and the car running should only bring the pressure up a little. It will fluctuate without the vacume line connected. Very little chance of a bad fuel filter with only 8000 miles on it.

[12Ounce]

Did installing the fuel filter clip fix the "horrible MPG" by any chance? If so, you've been every oilman's dream.

[tripletdaddy]

Sorry if I didn't get around to mentioning it, but you were thinking maybe the gas smell you had noticed by the driver's door was caused by the loose fitting on the fuel filter. What I really think you were smelling is the escaping gas vapors that go to the EVAP canister which is right next to the filter and door. I too will get just a whiff of gas, try to smell it some more looking for a leak but never can smell anymore to trace it to a leak. I'd say that's what you have. I'd think the fitting to the filter would more obviously show symptoms of a leak.

Using the B-12 at too strong of a potency, as you have already proven, might harm something that you didn't intend to. I'd reread the label, but I remember reading that if your tank is too small, they wanted you to use less than the whole can. You'd really kick yourself if you melted the filter sock or something else. If you have any grit in your tank, bye bye pump. I've dropped a few tanks and have always been amazed and impressed how remarkably clean they were. No varnish, buildup, grit, etc. You're in LA, so you might get more hard stuff in it, but I think these modern gases have such good additives that clean and help disolve things and absorb water, you probably don't have much in your tank, unless someone sabatoged it or accidentally left open on a dusty road.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

Did installing the fuel filter clip fix the "horrible MPG" by any chance? If so, you've been every oilman's dream.

I don't know yet. I haven't driven it beyond 1/8 of a tank. I was exactly at 1/2 tank when I reset the trip odometer and I'm going to run it to E and see how many miles I get. If I get 200 or close to it I'll be happy that I've fixed the MPG thing, but I will monitor it on next fill-up and use the "gallons filled" receipt to remind me.

THEORY: Would/Could the hose being "half-on" the back end (just beyond the snap-on ring) of the fuel filter nozzle cause slight seepage of fuel/vapors during use and also while sitting not in use...... but just seepage balanced enough to leak just a lil bit of pressure/fuel (while not pouring all over the ground) such that it causes bad MPG and other fuel related issues?

I'm wondering about this now regarding how the computer has learned the driving habits over the past 8000 miles in this setup. Should I pull the battery cable to reset the computer or should I just continue to drive it and let it learn how it is with the hose clipped all the way on the rear of that fuel filter nozzle?

FYI - Tonight I turned the A/C off as I sat idle when I came home to see if the near stall thingy happens still. IT DOES STILL HAPPEN. ARRGGGGHHH!!!!!! I'm still set with using the A/C on all the time to alleviate this, but of course this is just a workaround. When it tries to stall or "dips" in idle it does this twice in succession and goes down to about 500 rpms each time. Then it levels off. I don't know if it stays leveled off indefinitely (while leaving a/c off all the time), but I do know it does this idle dip as I've been saying only after the rad fans turn off.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tripletdaddy

Sorry if I didn't get around to mentioning it, but you were thinking maybe the gas smell you had noticed by the driver's door was caused by the loose fitting on the fuel filter. What I really think you were smelling is the escaping gas vapors that go to the EVAP canister which is right next to the filter and door. I too will get just a whiff of gas, try to smell it some more looking for a leak but never can smell anymore to trace it to a leak. I'd say that's what you have. I'd think the fitting to the filter would more obviously show symptoms of a leak.

Using the B-12 at too strong of a potency, as you have already proven, might harm something that you didn't intend to. I'd reread the label, but I remember reading that if your tank is too small, they wanted you to use less than the whole can. You'd really kick yourself if you melted the filter sock or something else. If you have any grit in your tank, bye bye pump. I've dropped a few tanks and have always been amazed and impressed how remarkably clean they were. No varnish, buildup, grit, etc. You're in LA, so you might get more hard stuff in it, but I think these modern gases have such good additives that clean and help disolve things and absorb water, you probably don't have much in your tank, unless someone sabatoged it or accidentally left open on a dusty road.

WOW!!!!! YOU ARE RIGHT!!! I BET I AM SMELLING THE EVAP CANISTER!!!.... BUT REALLY MAN SHOULD I BE SMELLING IT THAT STRONG? I have never known any other vehicle I've had to let off that strong a fuel smell, but on my 3000 I know the EVAP canister is in front near the fans so maybe the fans dispurse it before I ever smell it anyway. You are so right cause I sit there and constantly sniff around trying to find where its coming from, but it makes all the sense in the world it's the EVAP.

I put a can of B-12 in at half tank. It treats up to 21 gallons and I have the 25 gallon tank so I had roughly 12.5 gallons in when I poured it in. This would be a lil stronger than the recommended mixture, but I decided to just go with it. I'm still less than 1/8 of a tank lower than the 1/2 mark so I have a bit of fuel to burn before I know how many miles I'm getting per half tank since the CLIP of the fuel filter being fixed.

[wiswind]

In hot weather, you are better off keeping the A/C running....it actually keeps the motor and TRANSMISSION COOLER.
The A/C being ON will KEEP the radiator fans ON at low speed when the vehicle is not moving at a minimum speed......which will keep the temperature of the coolant cooler (and not waiting for the engine temperature to cause the fans to come on)....and this will keep the transmission fluid cooler.....so......it is better.

Hopefully things will settle down for you now.
I think that the PCM will learn the changes on its own.......so no need to reset it....(which would cause it to have to relearn a lot of other data)

[tripletdaddy]

Searcherr, I've lost track of your agonizingly long repair saga (for you),....: I have forgotten your repairs in an attempt to stop the stall, rpm dip that occurs when turning off the radiator fan.
Did you replace the ccrm, both fans, fan dropping resistor, etc.....?
If you run it with the ac off and let it get hot enough, the fan will come on low and then turn off on its own and cause the dip?
So, the dip happens at both fan speeds turning off?
No major dip at startup?
Can you stick an ampmeter in with the fan circuit to observe the amperage draw when it dips?
Have you tried turning the fan on and off by pulling the ECT wire connector to see if it still dips?
Try using a gound and hot jumpers in place of the wiring to the fan, and see if using that creates the dip problem. Somehow avoid using the wiring connector so that you don't backfeed the electrical system with the jumpers.