Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[tomj76]

>Compressor - Told him I saw drops of Freon at the mid-base of the compressor and he said that’s probably the front seal. Big poop sports fans. More big $.

Freon in not a liquid at STP (standard air temperature and pressure). That's why it works as a refrigerant. If there is any liquid at all coming from an A/C compressor, then it's either condensate (the inlet pipe is cold when it's running and water vapor from the air WILL condense on it), or it's oil from inside the A/C system. However, if there is a big enough hole to allow the oil out, then the A/C system would be dead, because all of the refrigerant would have leaked out and the low pressure safety switch would have triggered to protect the compressor.

I read earlier in the thread that you were trying to check the resistance of the ground wire. I'd guess at this point you're past that, but I thought I'd offer my two cents anyway. There's actually a very simply method to get a good idea if the wire has low resistance.

The key is to measure the resistance of the wire without including the ohmmeter leads. An ohmmeter works by forcing a known current down a wire and measuring the voltage drop. Since R=V/I, the resistance can be determined. The problem with measuring the resistance of a wire is that the ohmeter has wires too, so the error due to the resistance of the leads is quite high. The electronics industry makes special ohmmeters for measurement of small resistances that use four wires instead of two. This is called a "Kelvin" measurement. These meters tend to be expensive, but you can get the same effect with your two wire ohmmeter by using it as a voltmeter.

The idea behind a four wire resistance measurement is use one pair of wires to drive the current into the resistance and the other pair to measure the voltage drop between the two points where you want to know the resistance. Since the voltmeter wires don't carry any current in this setup, there is no voltage drop along these wires and the voltage measured is only the voltage along the resistance, in this case the ground wire.

Fortunately, you don't really need to know the actual value of the resistance, just that it's low. The whole problem with a bad ground wire is that it changes the voltage on the computer, so voltage drop on the ground wire is what your really care about. All you need to confirm is that the voltage between the engine block or chassis and the battery negative terminal is low.

Therefore, do the following:

First check for a catastrophic value with a continuity check (i.e. is it < 10 ohms) with an ohmmeter. Once you confirm that the wire isn't broken, then start the car and set the meter to measure voltage. There is no risk of damaging the meter since it is in voltage mode and will not draw any significant current. If you're looking at a ground wire between the battery and the engine block, put the voltmeter positve probe on the engine and the negative probe on the negative terminal of the battery. Since the current should be flowing from the battery negative to the engine block, you should read a negative voltage of a few 100 millivolts if the alternator is charging the battery. A positive voltage would indicate that current is flowing from the engine block to the battery, meaning (since this is the ground current) that the battery is discharging. The more current on the wire and the more resistance between the probe points, the higher the voltage. Just guessing, but I'd say that anything higher than 0.3 volts is suspect.

If there is a problem, the first thing to check is the connections at the battery post. I've had plenty of times when my engine ran rough due to a poorly torque or corroded battery post terminal.

However as far as your real problem goes, I don't have much to offer.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by Ruby&Ray

hello

Huh. HELLO! lol

wiswind - Thanks for the TSB info. Its still strange to me and sounds like a way for Ford to make more money, but hey... everything in "balance" right.

wiswind/tomj76 - The liquid I see dripping from the compressor starting at the front seal (I guess) and ending up at the dead center of the compressor before it drops is a YELLOW liquid. I have cleaned it a few times and it comes back. Somehow the a/c still seems to work, but not nearly as quick as it used to and the "cool" is still satisfactory, but not as cold as it used to be prior to the engine debacle.

Could the use of too much oil have caused a leak when they recharged it after the engine was put in? Or since this is a 158k used compressor was it likely to leak anyway on recharge after probably NEVER having been flushed before?

Do shops really replace the front seals of compressors? I'd think they'd want a new compressor to just put in place huh? Can you even get seals for them?

tomj76 - WHOA!!!! - I especially dug this part:

Originally Posted by tomj76

However as far as your real problem goes, I don't have much to offer.

To finish up this post I have to say I am f'ing livid. Tomorrow makes 2 weeks and the most done to my van has been it was put on a lift and its still sitting there with NOTHING accomplished as I passed by there yesterday and confirmed that not jack sh!t has been done. I didn't even go to the office... I just walked into the bay. Mind you I will admit everytime I pass by there, their bays are full and their parking lot is full too and these guys REALLY DO know what they are doing...... but this waiting is f'ing killing me.

Apparently they are not eager to work on it because of the jacked up exhaust and what it is going to require to get it corrected. They've told me more than once they'd like me to get a new Ypipe because the one I was sent isn't the right one..... but its the right one as far as Magnaflow is concerned and now its already got alterations to it and really it is the right shape, 3 O2 ports were in correct positions and the 1 that wasn't was only slightly off, the bracket I had to cut was just a tad in the way, but the pipe extending beyond the rear-most flange was retarded (had to cut it off) as it blocked and hit head on the mating flange at the flex-pipe, and finally its been discovered as of LATE that the flaring for both exhaust manifolds is too LONG and wide hence the exhaust leaks there.

I told them why can't they just take it down and apply the exhaust sealant stuff like I had asked and the main guy there disagrees that it will hold up over time and will eventually crack and leak again. I don't know how true that is because the stuff used at the other shop to seal the rear-flange of the Ypipe to the flex-pipe is damn rubbery/hard when it dries up and seems like it would last a lifetime. So this presents another problem either that the flaring on the magnaflow Ypipe has to be corrected, give them another Ypipe, or put the old damn Ypipe back on, but it really pisses me off that I cannot use the high-flow setup which I WANTED and SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE GOT DAMMIT! Why does everything have to be pushed and seeming like some FORCE INSISTS on making things so utterly difficult for me?

I'm bringing the old Ypipe over to them this morning (if I wake up in time) to see if they will be receptive to my idea of putting the OEM flared ends on the new Ypipe OR move the new Cats from the new pipe to the OEM Pipe. I don't know which they will buy into better, but I am not going to wait another damn week fiddling trying to get another Ypipe in the mail especially while Magnaflow owes me at this point anyway.

Since they are tackling the exhaust first the A/C or the near stalling issues have not been addressed at ALL!!!!!!!!! Not to mention the poor MPG issue either...... which I am hoping with the new CCRM, better exhaust, Fixed A/C, and fixed FANS that are near stalling the vehicle that the poor MPG just DISAPPEARS on its own somehow especially since we are LITERALLY..... LITERALLY being ROBBED at the gas pump.

I'm placing orders for the fan assembly and new compressor tonight and having it shipped directly to the shop. Gonna go with the compressor without the clutch because when they did the engine I had'em put on an entirely new clutch assembly down to the shim(s).

Want to hear the REALLY REALLY REALLY worst part of all this and I don't even know if I've written about it in this thread or not so forgive repetition if I did: There is engine oil seeping out from the tranny/engine mating surface; thats the bell housing edge I believe its called. So far I have wiped it twice and hoped that as I drive on the new engine it will stop cause I haven't even put 200 miles on it yet.... but I'm almost scared to even tell the shop this. I would hope they could just retorque the engine/tranny mating bolts, but of course what scares me is that they'd have to pull the tranny to redo the seal. The leak is very very very very subtle. It takes a really long time for it to form a drop and I never see any on the pavement.

[searcherrr]

RockAuto - just ordered; being sent to shop - 1995 FORD WINDSTAR 3.8L 232cid V6 FI (4)
DORMAN 620102 (620-102) Engine Cooling Fan Assembly $110.79
MOTORCRAFT YC2523 A/C Compressor $217.79

I've bought Dorman before and satisfied with quality and this is a completely NEW fan assembly so I'm up for saving $55 - $60 or more from the OEM or other brand. The compressor however I didn't want to go other than OEM cause it lasted so long.

Can someone tell me the difference in YC2523 and YC189 if you navigate through the parts lookup on www.motorcraft.com? Both say "new compressor" and 1 says "air conditioned" (DUH!) and the other says "DEALER OR FACTORY INSTL" - The YC2523 was cheaper for some reason.

[searcherrr]

I got the van back today after nearly a month.

Total damage was: $1086. YEAP.... again $1086.

Apparently the exhaust caused them all sorts of trouble and he said he didn't want me to think they were mad or something, but that normally he wouldn't have taken the work but because it was me and all that I've been through with them in the past few months he did. He said the person that did the welds before him really caused him all sorts of trouble and the Ypipe was extremely difficult to deal with alone as stainless is really hard for his machine to deal with and he went through about 7 blades trying to get it right.

I am petitioning Magnaflow for labor reimbursement which is $510 of that bill and the cost of the pipe $269. If not I've already told'em I'll file a small claims court suit on next Monday the 23rd. We'll see what the email says in the morning.

Now for what you've all been waiting for. The answer is NO. While the van runs smoothly and seems to me to accelerate much easier/smoother the problem of the "almost stall" still occurs after the NEW RADIATOR FANS turn off. It comes back up to idle speed, and then tries to do it again. These hiccups never amount to an actual "stall", but they do bother me and I thought that it was related to the poor MPG. At least the exhaust leaks are gone and its quieter, though of course not as quiet as stock but its well within tolerance. The leaking compressor was replaced too.

So we have things FIXED and a new set of fans I apparently didn't need, but the "almost stall" thingy is still there and as far as the poor MPG goes I have no idea and neither do they. All they keep repeating to me is that the engine is TIGHT and new and that I need to put some mileage on it. He says that he's had Ford engines all his life and he's known them to do what mine is doing. I know my old engine did it too, but it was "ever so slightly so" and something I always kinda ignored.

I have decided that the best fix for this at this point is to just leave the A/C on as much as possible thereby the fans will always run. I've thought about replacing the alternator, but after all the money I've spent at this point I really would like to see it truly go bad before I do.

Selectron and whoever else - If you have any simple methods of testing (or refer me to a previous post in this thread if you've already written it) that I could try to isolate this issue let me know, but if the methods aren't fairly simple then I'm probably gonna leave this alone for a while till I put at least 500 miles on the thing. After all this crap I still have to change the oil after 500 miles too.

Thinking with bare parts logic the only items remaining that haven't been replaced are:
All sensors besides the: TRS, VSS, DPFE and AFM (MAS or MAF)
Alternator
Coils
Fuel Pump
Fuel Pump Regulator

I think sometime soon I'm gonna order a Fuel Pump adapter so I can test fuel pressure & the FPR just cause I'm curious, but not because I really think that may be the problem. Though there are signs/descriptions from other non-Windstar forums that it could be the FPR. It just baffles me that they wouldn't even want to look into the fuel system, but I should trust their experiences right?

I believe he didn't look into the "near stall" (bad MPG related I believe it to be) thing further because he didn't want to charge me any more money. He spent 6 hours on the exhaust and it was probably more than he said.


I thank you all for your suggestions, help and just for trying.

[tripletdaddy]

If you want the radiator cooling fans on all the time, unplug the wire connector to the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor, which is screwed into the top of the thermostat housing or right next to it. The ECT has a two wire connector.

With your electrical problem still there, I would suspect your alt. Have you had it tested, especially load/bench tested? The in car test isn't as meaningful.

[searcherrr]

Actually I don't know why cause this doesn't make any logical sense man, but I feel as though I have proven this isn't electrical. I just FEEL it. I think instead it is actually due to fuel. I am thinking the FPR is it and it is easy enough for me to replace. The description I read somewhere of people's problems with their vehicle and fpr's is damn near exact to what I'm experiencing on my van. It is in an easy enough spot to replace so I'm gonna get one today and see if that resolves it. If it doesn't then I "truly" wash my hands of this till it causes some other major problem or continues to show horrible mpg even with the new exhaust setup in place.

I'll get the alt tested at a few places today and see what it comes up with, but I did have it tested a while back and it was fine not to mention my own multimeter tests. In any case if it isn't the alt or the the fpr then I wash my hands of this. I could go on and on and on and on and on guessing, but right now there is nothing giving me any sign saying "I'm broke here... fix this"..... damn I sure wish it was that easy.

[searcherrr]

Oh and here is my thinking on the FPR. I kept asking "What happens in the van when the rad fans cut-off." Well, without looking in a manual it comes to mind that one of the things that MUST be happening is a very subtle change in fuel pressure from a lil higher to a lil lower. If the material inside the FPR melted a little when my engine overheated for so long a period back in October then perhaps subtle fuel pressure changes/management are no longer possible within spec. I DID smell a FAINT HINT of fuel when I pulled the vac line off the FPR and sniffed the FPR spout that one time. I'll do the pressure testing before replacing it and see what up.

Here's the procedure I'll use to the best of my ability: http://www.2carpros.com/car_repair_v...n_pressure.htm - Good video.

[wiswind]

The test of pulling the temperature sensor wire....I would NOT leave it that way....as it will not do nice things for your PCM control......as in mileage.

At this point.....I would do as you said.....drive it for a while and see how the fuel economy is.
Take it out on the freeway for a nice long easy ride......at speed limit with cruise control on.
The PCM is in need to learning the "driveability" information.
From there.....if the fuel economy is OK.....I would change the oil and keep going.
We might get lucky and have this straighten out as the PCM gets the adaptive data......or maybe something simple will surface.
The Fuel economy is going to be a real indicator of how things are going overall.....so let's see how that does....after the driveability/ adaptive....etc data is learned.
With as much money as you have spent.....I hate to see you dump more in if it is not a serious problem......or at "maybe it is this".

[searcherrr]

Alternator tests good (very good) yet again with high rev and low rev tests performed on a load testing machine.

Obtained the FPR and a fuel pressure testing gauge for the test port. Its nice. Has a release valve.

I swear it drives so smooth, but does not seem to have the upper end power or the lower end power it used to. Seems like the engine is revving more than it would normally for the forward motion it is producing.

Once it cools I'm gonna go do the fuel testing.

Guy at parts shop (willing to hear anyone's thoughts now) asked if I ever replaced the coils. He showed me what a new set should look like. Says that the silicone layer just below the coils should be a caramel looking color and flat with no spacing at the edges and no bubbling. I looked at mine with some semi-dim lighting and its flat and no bubbling, but couldn't tell if it was shrunk from its edges.... otherwise it just looks fine.

How could I tell for sure if I had bad coils though?

Leaving the A/C on all the time down here in tha 99% humidity pressure cooker called Southern, LA is no problem for me and I don't like unplugging the ECT either since I know how much it impacts the fuel injection system.

[searcherrr]

Was going to do this FPR thing today, but there was a massive severe thunderstorm outbreak and we also think we have a nest of yellow jackets building outside that i have to be careful of. Probably dealing with this tomorrow.

I've read up on a couple tests for the ignition coil. Gonna try those too.

[tripletdaddy]

Sorry about the ECT. I wasn't thinking. I thought you have Alldata or like for this, so you should be able to find a resistance test. I think primary is 1 or less ohms and secondary is 6.5 to 11.5 k-ohms. I also like to check every single contact to see if it is grounded when it shouldn't be. Speaking of lousy mileage, has anyone pulled your plugs to see if excess fuel isn't burning? I would have thought lousy mileage would give you rich O2 codes. If the engine is revving too much, is the trans slipping? You'd think there would be some sort of error code for the trans shafts, etc. not matching rpms right.

[wiswind]

The ignition coils would be a possible issue if you had rough idle....misfire....etc.
As you said that it is running smoothly......I would not look at the ignition coil.

With the vehicle running smoothly......I would see how it does on a couple tanks of fuel with nice easy driving.......
If the fuel economy is OK....then we are pretty much out of the woods.
We might even get lucky and have the idle drop go away once the driveability information is learned by the PCM.....(Let's take all the luck we can get).
But the real key on how things are will be the fuel economy over the next few tanks of gasoline.......

[searcherrr]

I did Fuel Pump and FPR tests. Here are the results:
1. Pressure gets up at around 36-38 (repeated key flick about 10+ times)
2. Pressure increases exactly 5 psi from 30 psi each time tested
3.a. Tested at 2500 rpm for 1 full minute: Remains at 30 psi and at times drops to 28 psi on throttle up and stays at 28psi until idle.
3.b. Tested at 3000 rpm for a few (maybe 20) seconds: Remains at 30 psi and at times drops to 28 psi on throttle up and stays at 28psi until idle. At idle fuel pressure remains 30 psi and never goes higher.

NOTE: The only test that got it higher than 30 psi was when the engine was off and Ignition was in ON position.

Questions:
1. Desn't this mean we have a bad fuel pump here? or a clogged fuel filter?
2. What are the odds I have a clogged fuel filter after only 8k miles of a new fuel filter being installed in a 158k mile fuel tanked vehicle?
3. Would ya'll replace the FPR too anyway? or just leave it? I ask because it increases by only the minimum 5psi to 10psi range I saw on the 2carPros video.
I'm asking all this because I'm in a bit of disbelief after all of this that I may have found the true culprit.

I'm going to be furious with my shop tomorrow morning. This is making me wonder now if the 1st NEW engine was ever bad at all. If I don't have fuel pressure correct or just a "weak pump" would I not have bad oil pressure as well?

Here are the tests I did:
Fuel Pressure Regulator and Fuel Pump Test - Gauge connected to test port for all tests
Bought an Actron fuel pressure tester with fittings and pressure release valve/button and bought FPR at Advance Auto yesterday.

At engine off; ignition ON position
1. Flick ignition on and off several times to verify pressure remains constant
Should be between 30-45 psi (210-310 kPa)
If not then bad fuel pump or clogged fuel filter

At engine ON; ignition ON
2. Remove vacuum line from FPR
Gauge should increase 5 to 12 psi
If not then bad regulator; replace

At engine ON; ignition ON
3. Increase engine speed to 2500 rpm and maintain for one full minute.
Record fuel pressure.
Should be between 30-45 psi (210-310 kPa)
If not then bad fuel pump or clogged fuel filter

I watched during each test to make sure there was no fuel leak at the test port/gauge connection point. I hand tightened it as tight as I could get it.

I need fast answers so I'm going to post this post in its own thread too. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...79#post5754879 - This'll be good for others to quick reference anyway rather than this monster thread.

[searcherrr]

I know OEM would be what most recommend, but I'm in serious money savings mode now. What of the following choices for brands would be your next choice?

Bosch
Carter
Python
Airtex
Master Electric
Best Test (BTF)
Delphi (says actual OE part)
BWD
ACDELCO

Another thought - if the TPS was bad could it throw off my test results with the FP? IE: Pressure accurately reported, but TPS not throttling the injectors like its supposed to?

[searcherrr]

Ok I tried to replace the f___ing fuel filter today and after 4 hours of wrestling with the damn thing and a trip back to get a fuel disconnect tool that fits the got damn thing will not come off of the front side stainless-steel connector line. I even invited the neighbor over to give it a shot cause he'd done it on his and he couldn't get it off either. It would not fucking budge for the life of either of us.

Something very odd though. The rear line just slid right off like someone had f___ing lubed it with KY. The retaining clip doesn't do anything and to me it does not feel like this line is secure under pressure, though there are no leaks either..... but this could explain why sometimes I swear I smell fuel from that side of the van after it has sat for a while or even while out and about. Could this be my pressure problem?

I put the fucking filter back on.

Tested again with FPR vac line off...... now pressure goes up to 40 PSI from 30 PSI every single time.

At idle and at accel to spec test rpms the psi remains FLAT at 30psi and does not move at all.

WTF?

I am going on vacation for 4 days and forgetting this bullshit. I hope I have some good n nice n sweet replies to read when I get back. lol omg I want to shoot this thing with a rocket so bad.