Economic Stimulus

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

If any one person can make a speech about plans on what we need to do that can immediately reverse global trends and recession, then I will give all my life savings to him.

Obviously you won't be giving that to Obama. ......

Would you like my PayPal account number?

But seriously talk is cheap. Other than the people that voted for Obama and the liberal media nobody else believes his economic recovery plan(s) will work, therefore the lack of confidence, doubt and the continuing sell off.

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

It doesn't matter who was/is the President and what the speech was about, nothing is going to change the simple fact that the markets are going to go down for the next year.

The market has been going down and I repeat in a downward spiral since Obama was elected on November 4. The profoundly negative market and investor reaction was way before his inauguration. As I recall on or about Nov 5 and 6 the Dow Jones dropped nearly 10%, immediately after the presidential election. The Dow dropped over 486 points on November 5, and 443 points on November 6, closing below 8,696. It is been going down ever since. The loss has been well over 2000 points since the election to present. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Just look at your stock, IRA and 401K plan portfolios, if any.

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

I also find it rather perplexing.

On the one hand, you say you are against the bail out plans. That suggests you prefer to see the companies and banks simple fail and go out of existence. That in turn would have a devastating effect on the Dow Jones. Is this a case of damned if he does and damned if he doesn't?

I'm not against bail out plans or any economic stimulus packages just the ones that won't work or are stuffed with pork or partisan spending packages in disguise. Obviously the TARP with Bush still in office had an effect on the Dow Jones but Obama himself had a much greater effect. Nothing but gloom and doom. As the leader of this country (not yours) he sets the tone and pace. Keep in mind the stock market is a measure of confidence in the future. Trying to cover his rear end all Obama talks about is saying how bad things will be before it gets better or fails to adequately explain how his plans will work. This is no way to instill confidence or reassure the American People. This is a serious flaw which indicates his lack of leadership concepts.

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

On a slightly related note, I saw the last half hour of that speech on our news channels here and the one thing stands out most in my mind, is that lady in the green behind Obama who seemed to want to be the first to stand up and applaud.

That is Madam Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D) who was one of the architects of the latest 800 billion dollar pork stuffed economic stimulus package so obviously she will be clapping any time she gets a chance.

As for Obama he can give all the hope inspiring speeches he wants with his cohorts like Pelosi, Reed and Biden along with others. And they can applaud all they want but reality will not yield so easily.

[drunken monkey]

Please don't get me wrong, I am not defending Obama or attacking your position on him and his plans; just pointing out that the current climate is such that nothing anyone is going to say or do is going to have any immediate effect on our markets.

A recession is typically taken to be official after 6 months of decline in markets. Once a recession is official, it "usually" lasts at least 18 months before any real change is noticed. Following this, it seems to me that Obama's election and inauguration occured during this period and would suggest that the reality is that the current market decline has little to do with his taking the helm; instead merely doing what it does during such a situation.
i.e continue to fall.
Add to this the fact that one of the key problems here is lack of liquidity in companies (and banks) and that the Libor rates are still so high means that companies who rely on banks to maintain cashflow are going to suffer even more.
i.e lose market worth.

You placing all the blame on Obama for the continued decline equates (to me) to the Obama supporters saying unequivocally that he will get the U.S out of recession.

Recession isn't something that can be reversed overnight no matter how confidence inspiring (or not as the case may be) that any plan or person may be.


As much as I don't like the idea (or perhaps more correctly, the implications) of nationalising banks and companies, I can't ignore the fact that what we need to stablise our respective economies is cash to helps small and medium sized businesses to keep running and right now, the only body with that much cash, is our respective governments. This isn't just about bailing out the big firms, something else that I am also torn on as, well, if the largest employers in your country is simply left to die, what does that mean for their employees?

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Please don't get me wrong, I am not defending Obama or attacking your position on him and his plans; just pointing out that the current climate is such that nothing anyone is going to say or do is going to have any immediate effect on our markets.

A recession is typically taken to be official after 6 months of decline in markets. Once a recession is official, it "usually" lasts at least 18 months before any real change is noticed. Following this, it seems to me that Obama's election and inauguration occured during this period and would suggest that the reality is that the current market decline has little to do with his taking the helm; instead merely doing what it does during such a situation.
i.e continue to fall.
Add to this the fact that one of the key problems here is lack of liquidity in companies (and banks) and that the Libor rates are still so high means that companies who rely on banks to maintain cashflow are going to suffer even more.
i.e lose market worth.

Yeah I recall you got that some of that advice from your sister. ..... The last time I checked you were always an Obama supporter so therefore not impartial in your comments either.

The people that will get the U.S. out of recession will be the 57 million that voted against him. Many of his supporters don't even have a pot to piss in. None of his supporters are taking heed of what he said. We might once we become confident that he and his administration can do the job.

And I would not confuse the recession with the economic meltdown caused by two simple words.....Fannie and Freddie or companies like the U.S. automakers that created their own mess.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by BNaylor

Yeah I recall you got that some of that advice from your sister. ..... The last time I checked you were always an Obama supporter so therefore not impartial in your comments either.

The people that will get the U.S. out of recession will be the 57 million that voted against him. Many of his supporters don't even have a pot to piss in. None of his supporters are taking heed of what he said. We might once we become confident that he and his administration can do the job.

And I would not confuse the recession with the economic meltdown caused by two simple words.....Fannie and Freddie or companies like the U.S. automakers that created their own mess.

Actually, I was neither an Obama supporter or a McCain opposer. When I posted, it was mostly to do with the (more outspoken) attackers, most of whom were attacking Obama whilst seemingly ignoring similar flaws of their own prefered candidate. When I submitted articles and links, they were to highlight and reflect the fact that similar things could be found on their own candidate as they were condemning Obama for. or otherwise pointout a fallacy or flaw in their arguments.

For the record, my sister is works in a private bank dealing with individuals who have seriously huge amounts of cash. I'd trust her with my money if I had enough to open an account at where she works.

Incidentally, it seems that a recession in the U.S tends to follow a different pattern than in the UK. Economists tend to give the 18 months I gave in reference to our markets so the time frame may be different in the U.S.

Is it possible to seperate recession with the meltdown (as you put it)?

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Please don't get me wrong, I am not defending Obama or attacking your position on him and his plans; just pointing out that the current climate is such that nothing anyone is going to say or do is going to have any immediate effect on our markets.

A recession is typically taken to be official after 6 months of decline in markets. Once a recession is official, it "usually" lasts at least 18 months before any real change is noticed. Following this, it seems to me that Obama's election and inauguration occured during this period and would suggest that the reality is that the current market decline has little to do with his taking the helm; instead merely doing what it does during such a situation.
i.e continue to fall.
Add to this the fact that one of the key problems here is lack of liquidity in companies (and banks) and that the Libor rates are still so high means that companies who rely on banks to maintain cashflow are going to suffer even more.
i.e lose market worth.

You placing all the blame on Obama for the continued decline equates (to me) to the Obama supporters saying unequivocally that he will get the U.S out of recession.

Recession isn't something that can be reversed overnight no matter how confidence inspiring (or not as the case may be) that any plan or person may be.


As much as I don't like the idea (or perhaps more correctly, the implications) of nationalising banks and companies, I can't ignore the fact that what we need to stablise our respective economies is cash to helps small and medium sized businesses to keep running and right now, the only body with that much cash, is our respective governments.

drunken monkey, you are apparently being true to your name. You must be drunk to believe the government has all the money it needs for these "bailouts" Obama has NO intention of helping our economy, or paying for these programs, all he wants is to destroy our economy and control our Lives!

This isn't just about bailing out the big firms, something else that I am also torn on as, well, if the largest employers in your country is simply left to die, what does that mean for their employees?

It means they will go on to find even better jobs!



Quote From BNaylor:

That is Madam Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D) who was one of the architects of the latest 800 billion dollar pork stuffed economic stimulus package so obviously she will be clapping any time she gets a chance.

That is a question thats been on my mind since the unveiling of this economic destruction plan. Just who put it together ansd When???

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by CL8

That is a question thats been on my mind since the unveiling of this economic destruction plan. Just who put it together and When???

Well, in addition to all that he (Obama) just released his proposed FY 2010 budget plan. 3.55 trillion dollars. Ouch! Much of which can be classified a redistribution of wealth program.

And as an usual occurrence the Dow drops another -88.81 points to 7182.08.

Source: Liberal Rag LA Times

Obama's budget plan: At a glance
The president outlines his $3.55-trillion budget for 2010.

Link to Article

[CL8]

I had some fun today. A local talk show host in Portland sponsered a "Portland Tea Party" other cities have done them, we went to downtown Portland with tea and protest signs for the stimulus package, and dumped the tea in the Willamette river!

It was great!

You can see pics of it here:

http://www.victoriataft.com/

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by CL8

I had some fun today. A local talk show host in Portland sponsered a "Portland Tea Party" other cities have done them, we went to downtown Portland with tea and protest signs for the stimulus package, and dumped the tea in the Willamette river!

It was great!

You can see pics of it here:

http://www.victoriataft.com/

Thanks for sharing that. Kind of a moot issue since the stimulus package passed but I can see that concerning the proposed budget. The battle lines are being drawn again as usual.

In the meantime..........You go girl!!!!!!!!!!!


And for anecdotal info Dow drops again on Friday. It looks like it is headed below 7000.

7062.93 -119.15 (-1.66%) Feb 27


Also, this is interesting and has the liberal/demo bloggers in an uproar since the article mentioned "redistribution of wealth". Keep in mind the New York Times is the liberal media.

Source: Liberal Rag New York Times

The combined effect of the two revenue-raising proposals, on top of Mr. Obama’s existing plan to roll back the Bush-era income tax reductions on households with income exceeding $250,000 a year, would be a pronounced move to redistribute wealth by reimposing a larger share of the tax burden on corporations and the most affluent taxpayers.

Link to Article

[CL8]

Originally Posted by BNaylor

Thanks for sharing that. Kind of a moot issue since the stimulus package passed but I can see that concerning the proposed budget. The battle lines are being drawn again as usual.

Of course you know,this stimulus package isn't the ONLY one Obama wants. He is trying to spend even more. Maybe these protests will help thwart any more of these bogus bills!

In the meantime..........You go girl!!!!!!!!!!!


And for anecdotal info Dow drops again on Friday. It looks like it is headed below 7000.

7062.93 -119.15 (-1.66%) Feb 27


Also, this is interesting and has the liberal/demo bloggers in an uproar since the article mentioned "redistribution of wealth". Keep in mind the New York Times is the liberal media.

[/i]

Why is Biden and that other guy looking so mad in that picture? could it be they're thinking how much THEIR taxes will be going up???

[03cavPA]

Check this one out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cqr-...layer_embedded

[CL8]

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

Check this one out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cqr-...layer_embedded

I believe the Obama/stimulus supporters are already on that drug!

[thegladhatter]

....and be sure to remain aware of the side effects!

That was a good vid.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by CL8

all he wants is to destroy our economy and control our Lives!

in respose to my posing the question of what to do if one of the largest employers is left to die:

Originally Posted by CL8

It means they will go on to find even better jobs!

BNaylor, this is the type of drivel that anti-Obama people post that I post against.

Incidentally, to further qualify my earlier statement; only the Government has the means to act as guarentee towards the loans that small to medium sized businesses need to keep the/your/our economy moving.

[thegladhatter]

I don't think ANYONE wants the nation's biggest employers to die. The thing is that BHO's package has so much included that has NOTHING to do with the stimulation of the economy it is criminal.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

BNaylor, this is the type of drivel that anti-Obama people post that I post against.

I see your point and point well taken but members are entitled to their opinions whether drivel or not, good, bad or indifferent. And you are entitled to post your point in opposition so carry on.

BTW - There are a lot of anti Obama people that participate in this forum.