Maybe we should just leave Iraq?

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by T4 Primera

I've had enough contact with soldiers to realise that close quarter combat where killing was involved is not something they like to talk about so freely. At least not after they have mentally readjusted to normal life anyway. So let's say, right or wrong, I'm suspicious.

I have an uncle who has fought in 2 wars as a Green Beret. He would freely and proudly talk about things he saw and did in combat.

That said, ericcer might be an exception to the rule so if that is the case, I apologise ericcer for my disrespect. But I still don't believe that your reasons for going are the same as the reasons you were sent. DGB454, I'd like to to post a link for you that I posted elsewhere for ericcer to read. It explains my attitude to the futility of war better than I could do it myself. Here it is: General Smedley Darlington Butler

I have seen articles and publications from others who feel the same as him. I also feel war is usually a racket. There are however times when I feel that reguardless of whether there are some pulling the strings or profiting from it is irrelivent. They will someday have to answer for their attrocities. There are times when people must pick up arms to defend their way of life and their families. Eliminating terrorism in the world is one of those times. People like these terrorist do need to be wiped from the face of the earth in much the same manor they kill the innocent. It takes soldiers to do that. It takes soldiers who beleive it's important to defend what they know and love and believe in. Their country. Their way of life. Their family. Terrorist are a threat to all of those things.

[T4 Primera]

Perhaps you could answer a couple of questions.

1. What is a terrorist?
2. What does a terrorist want?

BTW, I edited my post while you were replying again and deleted my apology. I remembered what got me so pissed off and poste it there instead.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by T4 Primera

Perhaps you could answer a couple of questions.

1. What is a terrorist? Someone who uses the systematic use of terror especially as a means to dominate by force.
2. What does a terrorist want? Apparently 7 virgins in heaven.(j/k)
They want to spread their disease of hatred and distruction to every corner of the earth by any means possible. IMO If you are trying to equate what these terrorist do to what our soldiers do then ask your Father what he would think about that.

BTW, I edited my post while you were replying again and deleted my apology. I remembered what got me so pissed off and poste it there instead.

K.

[freakray]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Great comeback

Hey, it's you that made me laugh....can't help that, can I?

[RedLightning]

Originally Posted by Cbass

Oh yes, the argument that Iraq shipped it's weapons off to other countries at the last minute... "Quick, the Americans are coming! Send the weapons of mass destruction to Syria, so they can hide them for us, that way we can make the Americans look foolish!"

Also the argument "Ok Saddam, here are a half dozen different types of chemical and biological weapons, you can have all these cultures and formulas so you can produce your own, but you have to promise us you're not going to use them on Iran, cause that's just not cool."





Ah, to live in such a simplified world... Say, how's Afghanistan going right now? I really haven't heard anything about it on the mainstream US news, but apparently, things aren't going too well over there.

dude, i never said that he did ship wmd to another country, i just said that he DID have them at one point, and that was maybe something he did with them, also i said(i think in this thread) that maybe the weapons inspectors did more good then many ppl think. I dont know, but its fact that he did have them once, thats what im trying to say. also you gunna show me the proof that we gave them chemical weapons? hey we might of, but you have to give me evidence.


"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)
"Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)

islam, the religion of peace…


wow that sounds like a bunch of happy go lucky ppl, sometimes when i read stuff like this i just want us to leave iraq and let them fend for themselves. But should we? Get back on to the topic!

[T4 Primera]

Originally Posted by DGB454

1. What is a terrorist? Someone who uses the systematic use of terror especially as a means to dominate by force.

You left out the parts about civilian targets, collective punishment and abuse of human rights.

What do you call "Shock and Awe" bombing if not a systematic means of using terror to dominate by force?
What do you call the use of a C130 gunship on a town square full of people in Falluja?
Why are Guantanamo detainees kept blind-folded, ear-muffed, bound and forced to wear breathing masks that do anything but help you breathe?

Originally Posted by DGB454

2. What does a terrorist want? Apparently 7 virgins in heaven.(j/k)
They want to spread their disease of hatred and distruction to every corner of the earth by any means possible.

C'mon. surely you have something better than that empty rhetoric. That sounds like every war time leaders call to arms speech.

"They hate Americans"
"They hate freedom"

Give me a break.

They all have different reasons and demands. i.e.

Hizbollah and the PLA want the right of return to confiscated lands and property for Palestinians recognised and made real.
Bin Laden wanted the US military out of Saudi after Gulf I.
The IRA wanted the British military out of Ireland.
The resistance in Iraq want their devastated and DU poisoned country back.
The Afghanis want foreigners to stop using their country as a battlefield.
The North Koreans offered to drop their nuclear program in return for a non-aggression pact with the US - Bush refused.


Basically, all of the above are about self-determination. It's another word for freedom. By no stretch can it be misconstrued as a desire to reduce the globe into a seething pool of hatred, suffering and destruction.

The people that make up these groups were civilians once. Very few of them would choose to live that way they do unless the life has gotten so bad for them that they see no alternative hope.

At least know your adversaries motives before condemning them to death.

Originally Posted by DGB454

IMO If you are trying to equate what these terrorist do to what our soldiers do then ask your Father what he would think about that.

My father did not fight in a pre-emptive (meaning they didn't start it) war as a first up invader. As a civil engineer, he spent a large part of his post war years repairing the devastation of war. Subsequently, living amongst the people he had fought previously, he actually got to know and understand them.

[Jay!]

Originally Posted by Um...Nameless Dork

"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

[snip]

islam, the religion of peace…

wow that sounds like a bunch of happy go lucky ppl, sometimes when i read stuff like this i just want us to leave iraq and let them fend for themselves. But should we? Get back on to the topic!

You cannot take an off-topic jab and then deny replies.

The Qur'an can be misquoted as easily as can the Bible. Would you care to share where you go that list of quotes? I'm certain you didn't search the Qur'an for them. I'm also sure that each one is taken out of context.

One of the verses most often quoted (2:191) seems to command Muslims to "slay them wherever you find them." But who are "they?" Is it any non-Muslim or "infidel?" One merely needs to read the preceding verse to find the answer: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not the transgressors" (2:190). In subsequent verses, Muslims are called upon to stop fighting when the opposing party ceases its aggression.

There are other, similar, verses calling on Muslims to defend themselves. However, each one is likewise qualified and limited in scope -- they cannot be interpreted as giving a Muslim free license to kill anyone, anywhere, for whatever reason. Muslim scholars have analyzed these verses again and again, taking into account the scriptural and historical context of the revelation. These and other verses are discussed in the following online articles:

Does the Qur'an Teach Violence? by Muzammil Siddiqi

Does the Qur'an Promote Violence? by Fedwa Wazwaz

What the Islamic Scriptures Really Say About Jihad and Violence, by Belief.net

Concept of Peace in Islam

Murder, Manslaughter, and Terrorism -- All in the Name of Allah, by Asif Iftikhar

Religious texts can and will be perverted by extremists in order to justify their actions. This is not the same as the religion or its text condoning those actions.

[T4 Primera]

Jay@AF, I'm so glad you posted that.

It could not go unchallenged.

[justacruiser]

Originally Posted by Cbass

Are you on the grunts over in Iraq who get their rocks off by killing people? Quite a few of them do, you know. Oh, but of course not, they're heroes.

They don't start bleating that 'they're so oppressed' and 'woe is me, i'm Islamic so everyone wants to kill me' though, do they?

Originally Posted by Cbass

As for the Iraqi people, yes, they are oppressed, but I don't see them asking for pity, I see them asking for more ammunition. They're slicing, dicing, shooting and blasting because the US Army is not going to leave without a fight.

The only opression that's causing their deaths is their own, from their 'imams' and 'clerics' who order them to fight against impossible odds and strap bombs to themselves, all in the name of 'allah'. As for world pity, they sure do enjoy it!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=27154

I don't see any sympathy for these guys... oh, right, they're not muslim, still terrorists supposedly, but not muslim ones, nor ones being attacked by America right now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...nt/2480379.stm

[justacruiser]

Originally Posted by T4 Primera

You left out the parts about civilian targets, collective punishment and abuse of human rights.

What do you call "Shock and Awe" bombing if not a systematic means of using terror to dominate by force?
What do you call the use of a C130 gunship on a town square full of people in Falluja?
Why are Guantanamo detainees kept blind-folded, ear-muffed, bound and forced to wear breathing masks that do anything but help you breathe?

C'mon. surely you have something better than that empty rhetoric. That sounds like every war time leaders call to arms speech.

"They hate Americans"
"They hate freedom"

Give me a break.

They all have different reasons and demands. i.e.

Hizbollah and the PLA want the right of return to confiscated lands and property for Palestinians recognised and made real.
Bin Laden wanted the US military out of Saudi after Gulf I.
The IRA wanted the British military out of Ireland.
The resistance in Iraq want their devastated and DU poisoned country back.
The Afghanis want foreigners to stop using their country as a battlefield.
The North Koreans offered to drop their nuclear program in return for a non-aggression pact with the US - Bush refused.


Basically, all of the above are about self-determination. It's another word for freedom. By no stretch can it be misconstrued as a desire to reduce the globe into a seething pool of hatred, suffering and destruction.

The people that make up these groups were civilians once. Very few of them would choose to live that way they do unless the life has gotten so bad for them that they see no alternative hope.

At least know your adversaries motives before condemning them to death.

Wow. You've just proven what I've been talking about in other posts.

Anyone who wants to see what liberals think of terrorists, read the quote above. I've said liberals defend terrorist actions and the above quote proves every word of it. Your real name wouldn't happen to be John Walker Lindh would it? Are you a real life friend of his or a relative? I'd love to say that ALL liberals think like this, but so far only the most hardcore of hardcore liberals, (the kind that set fire to hummer lots in the name of nature), think like the above quote. Are you a member of the A.L.F. ?

[T4 Primera]

Originally Posted by justacruiser

Wow. You've just proven what I've been talking about in other posts.

Anyone who wants to see what liberals think of terrorists, read the quote above. I've said liberals defend terrorist actions and the above quote proves every word of it. Your real name wouldn't happen to be John Walker Lindh would it? Are you a real life friend of his or a relative? I'd love to say that ALL liberals think like this, but so far only the most hardcore of hardcore liberals, (the kind that set fire to hummer lots in the name of nature), think like the above quote. Are you a member of the A.L.F. ?

Is that all you've got?

I didn't defend anyones actions. What I did was try to enlighten people as to understanding why they do it.

Labeling the source of a statement is a tactic used to try to discredit that statement by virtue of envoking pre-existing prejudices - rather than dealing with the substance of the statement itself.

Why not dispute my statements one by one? Prove me wrong if you are able. If you can I will be grateful for the gained knowledge.

C'mon then, lets hear your wise and reasoned arguments. Bring it...

[Raz_Kaz]

Hey Umm...Namelees Dork,
I'm really really curious as to know where you got all that information off the Qua'ran. Give me some sites where you found those. Also I can lend you my Qua'ran and you will see that most of those "quotes" are flase and the other part of them have been falsely translated.

[Cbass]

Originally Posted by Um...Nameless Dork

dude, i never said that he did ship wmd to another country, i just said that he DID have them at one point, and that was maybe something he did with them, also i said(i think in this thread) that maybe the weapons inspectors did more good then many ppl think. I dont know, but its fact that he did have them once, thats what im trying to say. also you gunna show me the proof that we gave them chemical weapons? hey we might of, but you have to give me evidence.

http://www.sundayherald.com/27572

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...q-ushelp_x.htm

Originally Posted by Um...Nameless Dork

"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)
"Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)

islam, the religion of peace…


wow that sounds like a bunch of happy go lucky ppl, sometimes when i read stuff like this i just want us to leave iraq and let them fend for themselves. But should we? Get back on to the topic!

Let's get this straight right now. Those remarks can be construed as very bigotted, and there is no place for bigotry on AF. If you believe Islam preaches violence, that's you have the right to believe whatever you'd like to.

However, if you start posting things like that on AF, don't expect to be here long. This is your first and only warning.

[Toksin]

Originally Posted by DGB454

You are questioning a guy who was there and telling you what he saw?
You are trying to belittle someone who bravely fought for something he believes in? Someone who nearly gave his life for what America truley stands for? Freedom.

FREEDOM? Forcing the world to do its bidding, slowly removing the liberties of its own citizens and invading other countries for bullshit reasons is freedom? Riiiight.


PROVE to me Iraq was a threat to America. They were completely incapable of harming the US in any way. They had no hardware, or manpower to force an invasion. No will to fight, since you had already done a pretty effective job of shutting the country down. Yes, it's good that Saddam is gone, but look what's happening now. Iraq is more of a threat now than it was before this mess started.

I think it's time i dig my old "Freedom" flag out from the archives of my hard drive and return it to my sig.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by T4 Primera

You left out the parts about civilian targets, collective punishment and abuse of human rights.

Actually you will have take that up with Webster.

What do you call "Shock and Awe" bombing if not a systematic means of using terror to dominate by force? What do you call the use of a C130 gunship on a town square full of people in Falluja?

War.

Why are Guantanamo detainees kept blind-folded, ear-muffed, bound and forced to wear breathing masks that do anything but help you breathe?

Did you see anywhere where I condoned the prisoners conditions?

C'mon. surely you have something better than that empty rhetoric. That sounds like every war time leaders call to arms speech. "They hate Americans" "They hate freedom" Give me a break. They all have different reasons and demands. i.e. Hizbollah and the PLA want the right of return to confiscated lands and property for Palestinians recognised and made real. Bin Laden wanted the US military out of Saudi after Gulf I. The IRA wanted the British military out of Ireland. The resistance in Iraq want their devastated and DU poisoned country back. The Afghanis want foreigners to stop using their country as a battlefield. The North Koreans offered to drop their nuclear program in return for a non-aggression pact with the US - Bush refused. Basically, all of the above are about self-determination. It's another word for freedom. By no stretch can it be misconstrued as a desire to reduce the globe into a seething pool of hatred, suffering and destruction. The people that make up these groups were civilians once. Very few of them would choose to live that way they do unless the life has gotten so bad for them that they see no alternative hope. At least know your adversaries motives before condemning them to death. My father did not fight in a pre-emptive (meaning they didn't start it) war as a first up invader. As a civil engineer, he spent a large part of his post war years repairing the devastation of war. Subsequently, living amongst the people he had fought previously, he actually got to know and understand them.

All good points. I have no reason to beleive that they don't have their reasons. The big difference between us and them is that we don't use civilians to hide behind. We don't for the most part target civilians unless we are after those hiding among them . We don't attach bombs to ourselves and try to take out as many civilians as possible because they are different than us. We don't believe that a race or religion as a whole is evil and needs to be removed from the earth.

Sure everyone has there cause. Some are noble causes and some are less noble. Are American, Canadian, British, Australian etc... causes any more noble than al-quedas causes? I guess that depends on your perspective.