The GTO is dead. Another one bites the dust

[CassiesMan]

Originally Posted by deadbolt_35

i just think it's a little too angry for me...it is growing on me the more i see it, but i just don't know about owning a car that's pissed off all the time. i mean...buck up!

The new Charger is Emo.

[-Josh-]

This is BS people bitched because the GTO didn't look like the GTO but people also bitch because the Mustangs and whatnot look to much like the older ones and have "no room for improvement". There's no way to fuckin win in this industry.

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by -Josh-

This is BS people bitched because the GTO didn't look like the GTO but people also bitch because the Mustangs and whatnot look to much like the older ones and have "no room for improvement". There's no way to fuckin win in this industry.

[Jaguar D-Type]

Originally Posted by RedNeck383

Always found that interesting.

http://www.forbes.com/2002/07/01/0701vow_print.html

Cadillac Catera


Pontiac GTO


tweaking of 10 year old chassis and not so 'modern muscle car' styling.

Not exactly...

In 1994 Opel brought out the brand new Omega B that replaced both the Record and Senator models and ended the inline 6 engines for Opel, using a new V6 and I4 engines (It was also sold in the US as the Cadillac Catera). Again Holden decided to save money by using the wind tunnel tested and developed ‘shape’ of the new Opel. But it again had to widen it. This resulted in the new 1997 VT Commodore using a stylized copy of the now 3 year old Opel Omega. But again locally designed suspension and other locally sourced parts had to carry over into the new design. Again, only the doors were to be shared with the Opel, as well as a strengthened and modified copy of it’s independent rear suspension (which had been reengineered into a unique Holden version during the previous body) was used. However, as the body team worked on the style of the new VT Commodore (from which the Monaro/GTO was later engineered), even the rear door skins and glass were reshaped and so only the front doors were common with the Opel Omega B/Cadillac Catera. And of course the Holden Commodore now used the Buick 3.8 pushrod motor (with and without supercharger) and the Chevy Corvette LS1 engines matched to locally designed and sourced drivetrains and brakes etc. This also required a totally unique floorpan and framework than the narrower and lighter Opel/Catera.

To reaffirm that the Commodore / GTO and Omega are two different engineering products, you can visually see that the Commodore is a much wider and bigger vehicle than the Omega. And look at things like the roof of each car. Note that the Omega’s roof is a single pressing while the Commodore has a three-piece pressing. Given that the passenger cell is a major frame component in a monocoque design - this is a significant difference on it’s own. But also follow the carriage line under the side windows forward to where they intersect the front. Note how this virtually straight line sweeps over the top of the Omega headlights yet intersects the side blinkers on the Commodore. And the bonnet shut lines on the Commodore are more inboard than the Omega’s. This is because the entire shape of the front and even the substructure in the Commodore are different And underneath is even more different. A car needing to carry a heavy cast iron 5.0 and 5.7 Holden V8 (and then the 5.7 LS1) has to have a different frame from a vehicle that uses 4 cylinder engines and whose heaviest engine is an alloy 3.0 V6.

[Jaguar D-Type]

Originally Posted by clawhammer

Here's what GM needs to do. Make a killer car in the family sedan market. Like a Malibu or Impala that will kill Accord/Camry sales. Not just a newly redesigned car that is still getting beat by a 4 year old Accord. They need something that nobody will have questions about that is better. Once they have that, they can focus once again on the sports car market.

A new rwd Impala could share a chassis with a new Camaro.

[clawhammer]

Originally Posted by Jaguar D-Type

A new rwd Impala could share a chassis with a new Camaro.

IMO it should be RWD, but probably a little bit shorter. A V6 engine should get about 40 mpg while offering a 4-cyl version that got 45 mpg. 4 cyl should come with 5 spd auto or 5spd manual, while 6 cyl version should come with 6 spd auto and 6 spd manual. Horsepower figures should be 180 hp for 4cyl, and 250 for 6 cyl while keeping weight down to 3300-3400 pounds. A lot of money should spent on the interior so it doesn't look plasticy and offer luxury items such as XM, heated leather seats, navigation, etc. Now place each of these $1-2000 under what a comparable Camry/Accord costs and spend their advertising dollars advertising comfort and reliability instead of horsepower. That would save them no doubt.

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by clawhammer

V6 engine should get about 40 mpg and 250hp for 6 cyl

thats asking an awful lot... especially from gm

[-The Stig-]

Originally Posted by TheStang00

thats asking an awful lot... especially from gm

even Honda and Toyota would be hard pressed to make a Non-Hybrid V6 to make 250hp... and get 40mpg.

[Jaguar D-Type]

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

I'm getting really tired of the 300/300c/Charger/Magnum platform.

Yeah, they should go back to fwd.

[Jaguar D-Type]

New GTO coming

"Lutz confirmed that the GTO was “only ever off for two months, but that break has enabled us to get a more feasible program up.” The program he points to is General Motors’ Zeta rear-wheel-drive platform, which is being developed by Holden in Australia and set to underpin the new-generation Commodore due to be launched in August.

Besides Camaro and GTO, other models set to be based on the Zeta platform are upcoming replacements for the Chevrolet Impala and Monte Carlo, and a new car called the Buick Statesman, according to Lutz."

- http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar.../60302001/1039

[clawhammer]

I don't think Zeta will ever happen. GM will not be able to afford it.

[deadbolt_35]

Originally Posted by clawhammer

I don't think Zeta will ever happen. GM will not be able to afford it.

they had better make it happen if they want to keep their heads above the water. it's no secret that america wants to go back to rear drive cars. just look at the success of the LX platform (300c/magnum/charger).
i was reading a column in motortrend not too long ago and the writer argued that the enormous popularity of trucks over the past 15 or 20 years shows that america never really lost it's love for rear drive, V8, automobiles.

it sounds like GM is pretty serious about the Zeta platform

[clawhammer]

I don't think that the average Joe cares as to whether he's driving fwd or rwd. I don't think that the 300C/Magnum/etc had success because of the simply fact that it's rwd. It probably had to do more with the styling than anything else.

I don't think that people really care that much about V8s anymore. Look at Honda and Toyota. Honda has never made a V8 that they put in a production car, and even though Toyota has V8s, they don't stick it in everything and anything, and yet they're selling cars like hot cakes.

[DinanM3_S2]

Originally Posted by clawhammer

I don't think that the average Joe cares as to whether he's driving fwd or rwd. I don't think that the 300C/Magnum/etc had success because of the simply fact that it's rwd. It probably had to do more with the styling than anything else.

I don't think that people really care that much about V8s anymore. Look at Honda and Toyota. Honda has never made a V8 that they put in a production car, and even though Toyota has V8s, they don't stick it in everything and anything, and yet they're selling cars like hot cakes.

I completely agree with this. One of the biggest mistakes that car guys make (myself included) when talking about the auto market is to think that everyone thinks like we do and has the same priorities that we do. If everyone thought like we do, we would see a lot more Evos, STIs, Camaros, Mustangs, S2000s, etc around, but as it is, the mainstay of the car market (in America) is the family sedan and pickup trucks.

The 300/300C is selling well, but it is far from being a front runner in its class. In February, DCX sold almost 13,700 300s, while Honda sold over 25,000 Accords, Nissan sold about 20,000 Altimas, Hyundai sold over 13,700 Sonatas, and Toyota sold 27,000 Camrys. As much as we love RWD platforms, they are hardly the future of the mainstream sedan.

[deadbolt_35]

Originally Posted by deadbolt_35

they had better make it happen if they want to keep their heads above the water. it's no secret that america wants to go back to rear drive cars. just look at the success of the LX platform (300c/magnum/charger).
i was reading a column in motortrend not too long ago and the writer argued that the enormous popularity of trucks over the past 15 or 20 years shows that america never really lost it's love for rear drive, V8, automobiles.

it sounds like GM is pretty serious about the Zeta platform

man, this guy just got .....oh wait





that's my story and i'm sticking to it!