Bad cat or not?

[tripletdaddy]

The burning question I have is what do you do to have so much spare money and time to keep adding more and more to your evergrowing Winnie transplant project, because I want that too!?!

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tripletdaddy

The burning question I have is what do you do to have so much spare money and time to keep adding more and more to your evergrowing Winnie transplant project, because I want that too!?!

- I'm in IT. I can do just about "all of it" when it comes to computers and I'm a jack of all trades to boot. Though I am in debt now again where I was not before. I committed to not using the credit cards ever again once I became debt free, but I haven't been able to avoid them completely. I'm actually not working right now (there's all the time I have) pending getting the van AND the car right before I go back out to work or before I start my own business which is more likely than me going back to corporate work. I will probably supplement my business startup with a part-time job soon too and of course living at mom/dad's since this debacle started has helped a great deal. I have my ex-gf to thank for me dealing with a new engine this soon and then also to thank for me living back at home rather than in the apartment she's enjoying that I am stuck paying half the lease for and I can't even live there!

My car is another story. I've been working on it since Katrina "ever so slowly" and it was a low priority as the van was getting me around just fine and I had stockpiled all the parts I needed for my car when I was working. I also "fit better" in the van currently too. lol - I got help with the van from my father after the breakdown in Oct 2007 since it was very unexpected, but I have put in probably 1/3 (at this point) of my own money/credit too. The van sees the shop more than my car cause I'd rather work on my car than the van, though I'll be doing this exhaust stuff myself if I can help it. Overall I prefer not to spend money on costly repairs, but I am about "completing" the job as it should be completed to make things right ruling out everything along the way. As I asked my parents advice they've both already spoken their mind that everything that was "possibly" damaged should be made NEW again and while its an old fashioned way of doing things it is EFFECTIVE and more often than not faster than troubleshooting for WEEKS or MONTHS in this case. If I take all the guess work and analytical baloney out of the equation and just stick to knowing that I saw the cat glowing red and I have shi__y MPG it makes the most sense that its the O2 sensor or an exhaust blockage. I am going to be curious to test for backpressure on "acceleration" on the highway after I get everything installed to see if I pass the 3 psi redline on the gauge again. If I do not then I will conclude that my new setup DOES actually flow better than stock setup and maybe even be happy and smile.

I'm just worried about all the rust flakes and whatever else will fall in my face when I'm down there taking off the ypipe. It looks to me as if my trusted shop left the ypipe attached to the exhaust manifolds when they did the engine work and sliced the mid-pipe with a torch. The bolts and flange where they meet just do not look like they were tampered with at all. Perhaps I'm wrong, but thats what it looks like they did. I was hoping they'd removed the ypipe from the exhaust manifolds cause that would make it that much easier for me to deal with it myself.

[tartersauce]

Sometimes you can remove exhaust manas and remove engine. Its not uncommon. Some remove intake, heads then pull the small block out. Ive even seen pulling the whole subframe down with the exhaust still all connected. The less exhaust work or removal, the less time messing with rust or broken exhaust pieces.

[wiswind]

Wear goggles while working on the exhaust.......trust me.....glasses are not enough.

I think that you will find the Walker "direct fit" unit to give you good service for the money.
Remember.....you have a "dual exhaust" at that point.....each converter only has 3 cylinders blowing into it.
I also recommend leaving the rest of the exhaust system in place, unless it is for sure defective right now.
This is the approach that will give you the best value and service for your hard earned money.

Remember to support the flex pipe....
The "cat back" part of the exhaust system can be replaced at a later date....in the unlikely event that should become necessary.....without disrupting the "Y" pipe at all.
The flex pipe can be replaced on its own....
The rest of the "cat back" exhaust is all 1 unit.....and I don't recommend cutting it....unless you are replacing the whole thing.......although the Walker "cat back" is available in individual parts......which makes the installation MUCH easier.

You may have no issue with the nuts on the exhaust manifold studs.
I soaked mine with PBlaster ahead of time.
I had an issue with 1 of the studs.....instead of the nut turning.....the whole stud turned.......
Then....with the old "Y" pipe out of the vehicle....with 1 stud on it......I worked with the stuck nut......ended up breaking the stud off.....but the nut had turned enough that I had enough stud left to "luckily" be able to thread a new nut onto the shorter stud.
However......I got a new stud.....and put it in place.
I put some high temperature antiseize goo onto the threads of the new stud.....as well as onto the studs for the nuts to go onto.
This should help in the unlikely event that I should have to remove those nuts again.

Another thought.....more power = more stress on the whole drivetrain.......and our transmissions are NOT noted for being very strong.....the 1995 being the worst in the windstar line.
I know from experience......a transmission replacement packs a powerful punch to the personal finances.

I don't mean to lecture....but I will feel pretty bad if I see you posting down the road about a tranny failure.....following a power boost......If I did not mention it.

[searcherrr]

Wiswind - I take nothing you have to say as lecture. Your efforts in this forum have saved numerous people countless thousands of dollars. HERE HERE. I'm very happy to have your thorough input to bounce my thoughts off of.

Its a good point about 95 being the worst year tranny, but my tranny already went the route of a rebuild 20k ago luckily when I was still working. Unluckily though this happened right when Katrina came so I had to leave it in harms way at the tranny shop during that whole catastrophe. The fluid has been changed once since then and I imagine will soon again be done once I get all this other stuff worked out.

I still must point out though that in 1996 Winnies got a HP boost to 200 from 155 and I do not believe there were "major" revisions in 96 - 99 to the tranny although there were clearly revisions to some degree EVERY year to it. Still my rebuild should have "HOPEFULLY" taken into account all the latest revisions to that beast of a tranny so given the 200HP that all future Windstars managed I'm not too worried about adding 10-15 more HP to my 155 base HP by way of the K&N filter and an upgraded exhaust system.

SEARCHERRR IS ABOUT TO BE A GUINEA PIG FOR THIS OLD PLATFORM. I BET YOU SOME MONEY I'M THE 1ST 95 WINDSTAR OWNER TO PUT IN A NEW JASPER ENGINE, A NEW REBUILT TRANNY, IRIDIUM PLUGS, A K&N AIR FILTER, AN UPGRADED BORLA CAT-BACK EXHAUST WITH A MAGNAFLOW YPIPE ! LOL - In case I get crappy results though I will ask for my OEM setup to be saved in reusable condition.

We shall see what numbers I get on MPG and who knows if I can even find a FREE DYNO DAY somewhere or if I buy that scangauge II thingy I can find out what my top HP is one day. Until then I'll just see if she "pulls" (LOL - like talkin about a sports car) harder.

If in the unlikely or rather unwanted event the rebuilt tranny does fail prematurely I've already decided (unless I'm rich by then) I will go with a Stage 1 upgrade beyond OEM stock setup from either Jasper or Marshall Engines which brings in a higher flowing pump, beefier internal tranny parts, and considerably more torque for towing.

At some point too I'll probably hire some super hot scantily-clad models to hang out in the back seat for massages and a maid/cook service in the center bench. Perhaps a call girl for the front passenger seat for those LONG drives. ha haaaaa... After all that it truly will be what I've called it from the beginning to escape stereotyping: THE PARTY BUS! opcorn: bow chicka wow wow.... bicka chicka woooooweewooowwwww

[tripletdaddy]

Searcherr, I don't know how much you read of other posts, but your low mpg issue came to mind when I read in the following thread, post #51 where low voltage at the O2s can cause low mpg.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...=893982&page=4

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tripletdaddy

Searcherr, I don't know how much you read of other posts, but your low mpg issue came to mind when I read in the following thread, post #51 where low voltage at the O2s can cause low mpg.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...=893982&page=4

I noticed that thread, but its too long for me to read right now. I just did search of it for "volts" "voltage" and found a couple things about what you said. Are you saying that I could have a bad alternator?

I'm gonna try the test method from this post:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...lt#post5692338
and post 51 was informative as well:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...lt#post5691658

The thing is though. I don't have "any" codes and even the PCM is new.

You know though that is one thing thats bothered me ever since I've owned the van - that I've never had to REPLACE the alternator! lol - The alternator to my knowledge is the factory original and always has put out just fine. Aside from this the wiring at the O2's looks OK from what I recall although I have always had trouble grounding the alternator to the body and this is a KEY grounding point because apparently if this cable isn't grounded well the van will not function at all and I mean I won't even get power to the dome lights if that connection isn't solid. The aluminum casing of this alternator does not help at all either.

Also, the MAF I have installed is a used one from another vehicle. I saved like over $200 getting it, but perhaps its dirty. I'm going to clean it up with some MAF cleaner I bought at Autozone. I hope this is a product that will actually help rather than hurt.

tripletdaddy - I am just now realizing if this voltage thing is it that you may end up saving me a lot of work though I do believe I've tested my "running" voltage and battery voltage when vehicle is off recently. I have not however tested it since I got the van back since the new Jasper engine install.

The Magnaflow YPipe arrived today. I now have the new O2's, Ypipe, and Borla Catback exhaust. I have also obtained the correct ypipe to exhaust manifold bolts from Napa. Advance Auto has them too. I should note that possibly the reason Wiswind couldn't find them besides the dealer is because Napa and Advance Auto are the only two places I found that had them for 1 and for 2 on both sites they are not labeled properly listed under "Exhaust Manifold Bolt & Spring". It eventually led me to this:

Napa:
BK 6003230 Exhaust Manifold Stud & Nut Kit $10.29

Advance Auto:
http://www.partsamerica.com/productd...pe=725&PTSet=A
Dorman 03132 Exhaust Manifold Bolt & Spring $10.99

[tripletdaddy]

I didn't explore the links you listed, but to clarify this voltage business, the link I provided to page 4 of that thread in post #51, that to my understanding, suggested that if the O2 sensors had low voltage outputs, the pcm would interpret that information such that it would result in poor mpg. This would ocurr I assume as a result of an O2 malfunction, which you will eliminate with the O2 sensor replacements you said you will do. That's just my understanding of what was posted.

Now on the alternator lasting so long, I can say mine on my 95, 3.8 is still original with 145k, but I'm not taking it for granted. I also have a 95 taurus with the same engine and alt. It started to complain and eventually needed replacement at around 60k. The van started to show similiar symptoms, I bought a brush and voltage regulator replacement set as the alts are so $$$$$$, expecting it to go soon, but the problem apparently cleared up on its own, as the light stopped coming on and no other problems fo the past 20k. On both vehicles, I assumed I was having brush problems originally when the light would come on or flicker after a hard acceleration and let off of rpm. Sometimes it would stay on for awhile. I think the voltage regulator eventually died on the taurus and I replaced the whole thing. Now, 10k later, the Napa top of the line alt has a front bearing noise. Ugh!!! I think maybe on the van, the alt light came as a result of excessive loading when we had a battery die and I tried to limp it along too long. I also caused the air bag light,SRS, to come on due to "too low voltage". Problem was, the code wouldn't go away even with a new battery and functioning charging system. Disconnecting the battery did not clear the code and light and inpection won't pass it that way. So, I had to clear it following a special procedure I got from a very helpful dealer.

[searcherrr]

Helpful dealer indeed.... any dealer willing to share repair info over the phone is like a friggin miracle these days. I guess though they want to be talking to someone competant enough to be able to use the information they give out which probably is most of the time not the case.

If anyone wants to know what I've REALLY been going through these past few months the van has just been half the story. I'm working on 2 vehicles at once. If you have a 3SI membership the revival thread is here for the back tracking: http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=337631

STATUS: Today I pulled the van up on the new ramps my sister recently bought me (Thanks sis) and used AeroKroil on the ypipe bolts at all 3 ends. Apparently from what I see there are no other bolts to deal with as it seems the flex pipe is welded with the rest of the exhaust all the way back so depending on how cooperative the rubber hangers are this looks to be a fairly easy/straight forward job provided the ypipe bolts do just come off.

Question: There are flanges at all ends of the ypipe, but do I need exhaust gaskets too? (between the flanges and the manifolds and flex pipe connection)

I pulled the new exhaust setup out of the box to compare fitment points today. The only other modification I see in the new Borla exhaust setup is that the resonator chamber (the one furthest back; not the huge square one) is replaced with straight pipe until you get to the rear of the van where they've put a muffler. There are two connection points for rubber hangers for the muffler, but in the back there is only 1 hanger which would leave the muffler slightly wobbly. Looking closer at this area there is an insane amount of rust that looks like it came in from where the bumper meets the rear panel metal cause the paint is all cracking off there and rust is showing. This must allow water down there regularly rusting everything out. I'm going to have to rig some kind of hanger up to the rusty metal, but that'll be the last thing I do. Happily enough though the muffler will fit perfectly between the tow package and the right side frame n stuff and (lol) has a flared out bit metal end on it sealed in plastic. lol - It'll be the nicest looking part of my Windstar's exterior. lol

If I get far enough along with my car I'll be installing the new exhaust on the van tomorrow (hopefully).

[searcherrr]

I had typed up the following yesterday, but for some reason got sidetracked and never hit submit.... so here is yesterday's post today! lol
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Today (yesterday) was a complete bust. Somehow I ended up going into town to the parts store 3 times and ran errands for my mom, dad, and sister and before I knew it the end of the day was met. Oh well. Onto tomorrow.

One thing that was a reason for returning to the parts store at least 1 of the times was that I looked closer at the hardware that came with the Borla exhaust package and low and behold ALL of the necessary hardware is in there! I was told by the Ebay seller that they didn't have the hardware with the setup, but 1 of the 2 boxes that was still sealed from the factory apparently had this hardware in there.

There is an additional metal hanger specifically made for the Windstar subframe that is used for the new muffler at the back end and it actually bolts right into 2 subframe holes that are already there OEM and doesn't even get in the way of the tow package. HOOORAAY! That solved my problem instantly and I think all I needed to do was buy 1 additional rubber hanger though I may be wrong about that as the new pipe setup may not call for it cause of repositioning of 1 of the hangers.... or not. I won't know till I get to installing it.

I'm gonna take pictures so you all can see before I install it.

The last trip to the parts store (perhaps Wiswind told me this already in this thread or another and I forgot... I seem to recall a "deep socket" being mentioned") was for a 9/16" deep socket to remove the manifold nuts holding the ypipe on. The back part actually uses 1/2". Can you imagine my wonderful enlightened amazement when I got under there only to realize in all the tools in my arsenal I did not have a single one that would work for this? AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I thought about buying the entire deep socket set at Autozone, but cost-efficient thought kicked in and said, "Get ONLY what you need Luke. Use the force when buying." and I compared the price and actually if one day I end up buying all the singles to make a full set I will have come pretty close to the price of a full set anyway.... so just the single this time.

[searcherrr]

Today I ran late getting started, but I did manage to loosen all 4 nuts on the ypipe to manifolds. Either that AeroKroil is magic juice in a can or the shop did not tighten them on very well "if they even removed them". The problem lay at the ypipe meets flex pipe. Apparently the reason my setup is welded past this junction point is because the bolts holding the ypipe to flex pipe barely resemble bolts on the side that has the exposed threads. The head side of the bolts just seem like they would break off if I put any further torque on them. So since I'm not going to use a torch I guess I'll be going to rent a reciprocating saw with a metal cutting blade from home depot tomorrow. No turning back after that. I'm still debating on where to cut. I guess I should cut right through the weld point.

All 4 O2 sensors are now pulled. I wonder if anyone can confirm this or is even paying attention at this point lol..... but do O2 sensors use air outside the sensor/pipe through where the wires go in? I think I read something somewhere that said they did. In any case the sensor that looked the worst was the front side (left or front bank) upstream sensor which is corroded with white gunk. The rest of the sensors just look as though they've heated up with some blackish/grayish/brownish charring at best and very little deposits. I tape/labeled the sensors as I removed them, but I still believe I will replace them all with the new pipe.

Question: The new Ypipe has a good bit of "waxy" substance (tan colored) at the part (inside) that would connect to the flex pipe. What is that stuff? Should I scoop all of that out of there? or leave it? Is it meant to melt and flow down to seal parts of the exhaust or something or is it just left over material used when this thing was welded together?

[wiswind]

The oxygen sensor DO use air from the outside environment.....there is a chemical reaction that is generated by the difference in oxygen content in the atmosphere as compared to the oxygen inside the pipe.
This chemical reaction generates a voltage, which is used by the PCM to determine the oxygen content of the exhaust.

As far as replacement oxygen sensors....I would get the Motorcraft brand for the upstream sensors.
It is possible that they are made by Bosch....but they are made to Motorcraft specifications.
You can get the Motorcraft brand through Rockauto....and you will see that they are not much more expensive.
If you want to save a couple bucks.....you could use the bosch for the downstream sensors.
I would get the ones that are specified for "Upstream" and "Downstream" rather than "universal".....as the electrical wires will be the correct length......and not extra long.....and likely to come in contact with the hot exhaust parts.

Use care in the lead dress to avoid having the wires fall down onto the hot exhaust parts.

ALSO.....be super careful to plug the oxygen sensors into the correct plugs......as they are not keyed to prevent you from that....

My "Y" pipe, on my '96 3.8L had studs on the part that connects to the flex pipe.
The new "Y" pipe did not have these studs......thus the need to buy bolts and nuts to make the connection.
So....I would not worry about breaking these bolts on the old one......as it does not sound like you could re-use them if you wanted to.

You WILL need to do some cutting to remove the old "cat back" system......as it is all 1 unit.
At a guess....I would cut on the old pipe parts......thinner than on top of the weld joints......or where you are cutting through 2 pipes......1 slid inside the other.
The Flex pipe on my '96 is slid inside the pipe from the muffler.

[searcherrr]

So far the verdict is: Listen to Wiswind

As he said that the Walker brand Ypipe is a good 3rd party unit rather than OEM, that would probably be the best way to go to save money and hassle.

The Magnaflow unit (which I don't believe is made anymore) that I installed today/tonight (from 4pm - 12:30AM - YEAP!!!!! ARRGGHH!!! ) fits in a "flex" type way. In short the rear bank upstream O2 sensor will NOT thread in once the pipe is in place and after fighting with the damn thing for several hours and finally pulling out a hydraulic jack to gently get it to where it needed to be I was EXTREMELY LIVID .... DID I SAY EXTREMELY? IS THERE A BETTER ADJECTIVE TO USE? IF SO INSERT IT THERE. Of course all the other O2's go in nicely, but it seems my idea of putting in the O2's first at least for this one sensor would've been the way to go. I'm not even sure if after I thread it all the way in if it will not be touching what looks like the power steering rack center body. In any case I will be DONE trying to put in a better performing Ypipe in there and I will make the shop I bought it from take it back and have my trusted shop put the old OEM one back on with the new BORLA cat back exhaust system with it.

Also note: On the OEM Ypipe there are 2 center stability bolts on the Ypipe setup. The new Magnaflow one only utilizes the lowest stability bolt which is probably fine, but just a note that its not like the OEM setup 100%. I also had to cut off the corner of the bracket that the lower stability bolt threads into because it would not fit flush on the metal because it would hit the tranny pan edge. I was not happy to have to deal with this. In any case if I do get the damn pipe off and the O2 fits in with having loaded it first and I yield some better performance and MPG later on I will be happier another day. lol

[searcherrr]

It is installed and I managed to use the old nuts n bolts with the flanges so I'll probably return the ones I had bought from Napa and save about $11.

Question: Do ya'll think the O2 Sensor touching the steering rack (picture shown) will cause a problem? Rubbing from engine movement? Grounding issues? - I lowered the pipe in order to get the O2 sensor in.

To share a few pictures:

Front manifold O2 setup looking good (FYI - all O2's wire length matched on old and new single part # Bosch 15716; gonna call Bosch tomorrow and ask about the upstream vs downstream thing and I'm hoping the single part # is good enough for both sides of the stream):


Length of the pipe pic and you can see that bracket and stability bolt near the tranny pan where I cut the corner of the bracket off:


Here's the one (rear upstream) O2 sensor that gave me trouble installing. Think it will be ok touching the metal of the steering rack?:


Different angle of same rear upstream sensor. Though there is a slight shadow it is definitely touching and perhaps I bent it ever so slightly while slowly carefully tightening it up.



One good thing I noticed Wiswind is that this pipe setup does NOT touch the oil pan and I recall you saying that the Walker brand Ypipe you installed did. I put a light behind that area so I could make sure.

[searcherrr]

Would appreciate opinions: HERE'S A VIDEO of the O2 Sensor moving as I rev engine and shift gears from P to R to N to D 2 1 and then 1 2 D N then R then P again:

Video LINK of O2 Sensor Moving with MagnaFlow Ypipe in my 95 Windstar

ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT VIDEO WAS TAKE WITHOUT THE CAT-BACK EXHAUST HOOKED UP AT ALL. Don't think it'll make much difference, but good to state it.

It kinda looks like it would be ok all times except when I'm first shifted into Reverse which pushes the O2 forward. All Drive gears seem to push the O2 away from the rack housing. What do ya'll think?