Thermostat replacement with lower temp opening setting

[searcherrr]

THERMOSTAT

I realize whats been said about the thermostats earlier in this thread, but here me out because in my situation that I've been going through for the past 7 days the following symptoms discussed on the Jeep forum are exactly that which I experienced after I had Ford install my 180 F thermostat, water pump, and radiator.


From the Jeep Forum:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showt...27#post4276436

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ORJ
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1990 XJ Cherokee

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: oregon
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If you use a 180, you will sending raw fuel out your tailpipe and washing down your cylinder walls.
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ChuckeryOffroad
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clinton, NY
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The engine was designed to operate at or about 210* F. A 195* thermostat allows that temp to be reached relatively quickly and to be reasonably maintainable. Lower temp thermostats cause the 'puter to signal for a richer mixture because the lower temp indicates that it has not yet reached warm-up temps. Since it keeps running cooler, the mixture stays rich. This is for "normal" driving conditions...

At the same time, don't think that you can run a lower temp thermostat in the summer or high ambient temperatures in the hopes that you'll be helping your engine to run cooler; when things get very hot outside, a lower temp thermostat doesn't allow the coolant to remain in the radiator as long as necessary to dissipate heat, and can actually result in more overheating, not less.

All around, 195* is best; 180 will work, but given that 195* works best, well... you answer that one. And please stay away from the 165* thermostats. It's your vehicle, it's your money, it's what you want to do, but that's the way it is.

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I hate to say it, but what they described there is EXACTLY what I experienced after running just 20 miles down the road on the 180 F thermostat. I am now contimplating whether or not this entire ordeal was worsened by me picking the 180 F thermostat cause afterwards my gauge was not in the middle where it normally is and later on stayed so cool that it didn't even get off the BLUE mark on the temp gauge. This thereby causing me to run RICH heated up the precat and led to Cylinder 3 misfire probably due to a FOULED plug. If I haven't done any serious engine damage I think there is a good chance that this whole thing could be rectified by putting in the OEM thermostat, rad cap, plugs, and maybe wires. I am still getting the coolant tested for oil and vice versa to see if there is any evidence of a mixture though. I just don't think the lower than OEM tstat's are worth it for daily drivers and I'm really in belief now of what happened after reading that description of it on the Jeep Forums. The good news is though that if this is the case my repairs won't kill my wallet further like I thought they would.

[phil-l]

searcherrr -

Wow! You've been hitting the books.

Personally, my gut leads me toward option #3. Of course, I already have an '00 Windstar, so that's what I'm familiar with.

I don't know what your area is like, but I just took a look at Craigslist in my area. I'm seeing '99+ Windstars priced anywhere from $3K-$6K. I'm presuming that something toward the bottom of that price range probably needs a few things done do it - but the pictures and descriptions I'm seeing indicate these are still vehicles with significant life left in them. I'm also guessing the price is negotiable.

Quite bluntly, if my Windstar blew up tomorrow, budget realities mean I'd likely first shop Craigslist to see what I could find. I'd love to get the updated tranny in an 02+, or luck into a well-priced Freestar.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by phil-l

searcherrr -

Wow! You've been hitting the books.

Personally, my gut leads me toward option #3. Of course, I already have an '00 Windstar, so that's what I'm familiar with.

I don't know what your area is like, but I just took a look at Craigslist in my area. I'm seeing '99+ Windstars priced anywhere from $3K-$6K. I'm presuming that something toward the bottom of that price range probably needs a few things done do it - but the pictures and descriptions I'm seeing indicate these are still vehicles with significant life left in them. I'm also guessing the price is negotiable.

Quite bluntly, if my Windstar blew up tomorrow, budget realities mean I'd likely first shop Craigslist to see what I could find. I'd love to get the updated tranny in an 02+, or luck into a well-priced Freestar.

LOL - BOOKS INDEED!!! I had a typo on Option #3 up there... fixed it now...meant to say go from a 95 to 98 as I've figured out in the compatibility list.

Now why didn't I think to look on Craigslist!!! Usually though Louisiana is too dumb to use the internet for most things that they should, but I'll go look anyway.

Yeah, I looked at the newer Windstars and Freestars all night (haven't slept yet) and ideally I'd like a 2001 - 2003 Windstar (didn't know about their tranny upgrade; do tell) or any year Freestar. The only thing that bites if I do option #3 is if I go to a newer version Windstar then most of my improvement will NOT move over to it.... and of course NONE of them will go over to a Freestar.

[searcherrr]

Well this morning I went over to the shop where my van is and they hadn't called me yet. I'd bought an OEM spec thermostat, OEM spec radiator cap, and OEM spec iridium plugs before I went over hoping I could try this and it would solve my woes. Again they had not called me yet and I get there and they tell me they cylinder pressure tested it this morning and confirmed that its leaking and they think either head gasket or cracked/warped head/cylinder. It is my "trusted shop", but what bothers me is that they didn't call me and I stumbled in onto the news. Though I do have a lax relationship with them and know them pretty well so maybe I'm just paranoid like everyone else is about tech shops wanting big money jobs.... after all YOU guys, another forum, and the Ford place in MS that initially got me back on the road all said the same thing.... HEAD GASKET. So I will rest.

I've been reseaching more compatibility of the Windstar years for the past entire 2 days. I'm more and more liking the idea of a newer Windstar if I can find one at the right price and condition. I have learned that I could transplant my newly rebuilt AX4S tranny into up to the 2000 model year Windstar.... so this gives me options for finding a 99 or 00 model that is new style, upgrades, and just nicer all around. My tow package and struts/shocks will also fit if I haven't said that already. A 96 Windstar sold today for $2700 .... I just missed it out here. It would've been perfect for me to transplant my parts to and would've given me a working engine.

lol - I haven't slept so I'm getting off here now! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHhhh.....

[tomj76]

There is no "pre-cat". There are two catalytic converters, one for each bank, built into the "y-pipe". Following the y-pipe, there is an isolation section. (This is the part with the meshed pipe). Behind that is the muffler (a large rectangular suitcase shape).

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tomj76

There is no "pre-cat". There are two catalytic converters, one for each bank, built into the "y-pipe". Following the y-pipe, there is an isolation section. (This is the part with the meshed pipe). Behind that is the muffler (a large rectangular suitcase shape).

Yeah a Ford parts guy explained that to me today. I had never seen a muffler so large and square like that. I am just interested in getting more HP out of the 1995 engine if I am going to be stuck with it. I just wish one of the 3.8L supercharged or other 3.8L engines (say the one with DOHC) could fit in the Windstar. Whenever I do an big repair like this I like to really UPGRADE it to as good a performance as I can. Since this is the step child engine there are just NO mods for it anywhere...... even though its shared in these cars:

1994 Lincoln Continental
1994/95 Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable
1995 Ford Windstar

... the engine was only used in 1994-1995 as I'm finding out although the 3.8L 232 engine is listed for previous years for those other cars too. I wonder if there are any performance mods that were made for the Ford Taurus or Sable or Continental of those 1994-95 years.

Does anyone know for sure if the AX4S transmission can be used interchangeably throughout the 1995 - 2000 years? I know I said it could, but the slight variation in secondary numbering for that transmission has me wondering this and how big a change there was in the AX4S over the years. I have emailed someone who's written about AX4S, but no response yet.

[wiswind]

To be honest with you.....if you are looking at another vehicle......moneywise......it would be best to get a good running one.
Of course, a real deal on one with a toasted tranny......and a bunch of work....but if you are paying to have the work done for you (which I would be) it can get pricey moving the tranny from your vehicle to another vehicle.

Yes, it is nice to feel the boost when I press the accellerator.......and then another boost when the IMRC opens up.......but, remember.....that is all more stress on the transmission.....

Also, the low end Chrysler product comes with a 4 cylinder......which makes the 3.0L windstar look like a hot rod.

My 1996 GL has a 3.8L engine....but I think that it was an option.
By FAR the vast majority of the windstars are 3.8L engines.

As you have already found out......you have 2 catalytic converters.
1 for each bank of cylinders......then the "Y" pipe (which includes both converters) comes together into 1 pipe......into the flex piple, then into the big rectangular muffler......then the pipe goes back to a "resonator" that is near the back wheels.
The part from the flex pipe back is all welded together.
You can buy those parts from Rock Auto.....and if you click on the information link under any of the Walker brand exhaust parts.....you will see the parts broken down as you can buy them.

I know that for 1996, the "Y" pipe with the 2 catalyitc converters lists for about $1600, and the cheapest that I found the OEM online was $1200 plus shipping.
I got the Walker "direct fit" for about $321.

If you are thinking of moving motor/tranny between years......you will need to get together with someone who really knows their stuff about that.
I would really not want to see you do that, and end up with headaces chasing you into the future.
This is the reason that I am telling you that you are asking questions that are WAY over my head.

Of course...one "could" put a lot of things together.....but it takes know how....time....and money.

Having the top end reconditioned.....might be the cheapest thing for that '95, if you are feeling very good about your tranny (as you are talking about moving it to another vehicle) and the rest of the vehicle.

You should get new lower intake manifold gaskets along with the head gasket job......so that will be in good shape as well.

[searcherrr]

I appreciate you and everyone else hanging with me after all this. Its been quite the past week and a half. I hear you on all points. I'm just having some reality checks here and having trouble accepting I bought the worst year Windstar. I have been HOPING through my transmission questions that when the shop rebuilt my tranny 20k ago that they brought it up to the latest OE specs for improvements..... but knowing if those improvements are implemented in the latest compatible year Windstar vs just retroactive 1995 AX4S updates is knowledge that is hard to come by and even if you find the right person they are reluctant to talk to you. Sometimes I wish it were 20 or 30 years ago when people weren't as afraid to open their mouth and would just talk "shop" without worrying.

I am really between a new vehicle and the new motor. Again doing the heads and head gaskets just would seem to get too pricey and for all that money it would be worth it with warranty etc.. to get a new engine. I am considering however that if I do buy a new (or very nearly new) vehicle that I may have to put a replacement "working" engine in my 95 Windstar. I would sell much easier along with all my other improvements if the main part of the van was working.... although I may be able to find someone else that can recognize 9 GRAND worth of repairs over 3.5 years and may want to plop an engine in himself/herself for the price of say $4000 - $5000 sold.

I'm going to post in the transmission thread I started now.

[tomj76]

You might be interested in this link to an engine rebuilder company. The prices seem fairly reasonable. http://www.ae-engines.com/ford38engine.html

[searcherrr]

1. What do ya'll think I could get for my 95 in PRIVATE SALE if it just needs a new engine based on the following service record proveable by receipts?

2. What do ya'll think I could get for my 95 in PRIVATE SALE if I put a new/used engine in it based on the following service record proveable by receipts?

Of course I realize ya'll would be answering with pure opinion, but with all the work I've put into it I'd be hoping for $4000 minimum without a working engine and $6000 minimum with a working engine that comes with a 20k tranny with warranty and brand new engine with a warranty. I'm asking about private sales ONLY cause I really think that is the best chance I have getting any decent amount for it since the dealerships don't seem to value receipts and maintenance put into a vehicle.

Vehicle History
*Includes as much as known from most recent to oldest:

Total Service/Repairs up till 10/22/2007: $8929.84
Total with cost of van purchase: $11,179.84

Date Mileage Service Price
Previous Owner History
3/21/1995 0 Vehicle put into service. Sold to Schwartz Forwarding Co, Inc
12/16/1998 65,128 Brake job at Meineke Discount Mufflers on Elmwood; 2 new front Rotors put on; Front Shims ; Front Disc Pads and shims; cleaning of back brakes $340.33
4/18/2000 85,806 Machine front rotors, replaced front caliper slide/guiding pins; sliding bolt dust boot and shims; new pads; Raybestos WC37857 PG Plus Professional Grade Wheel Cylinders for both REARS; Brake job on front; bleeding and cleaning of rear brakes $303.45

9/8/2003 126,186 2 new tires, balance, road hazard; brake job; all wheel alignment; tie rod ends replaced in front; rear brakes (drums) replaced & shoes $540.03

History since I’ve owned it
4/14/2004 131,125 Vehicle PURCHASE $2250.00
4/14/2004 131,130 Rolland’s Parking lot garage DIY job; New starter installed; Dealer who sold van to me threw in a new starter on purchase 0.00
5/20/2004 131, 279 Veterans Ford – Tranny Valve body cover and pan gaskets leaking; supposed to have been repaired; still leaking after drive off. Tranny oil change, engine oil change; rear brake cylinders fixed; replaced air and fuel filters; trim repair on hood separation recall; inspected front coil springs for recall – Springs OK – ABS light will remain on but brakes are functioning fine; ABS light remains on due to faulty ABS computer which I have chosen not to replace at this time. $977.40
9/13/2004 132,492 EFI Services - Scan Test ABS System; Trouble Brake System Fluid Loss; Proportioning Valve Leaking; Right Rear Sensor Failure; Replaced Right Rear Speed Sensor; Replaced Brake Proportioning Valve; Transmission Oil Change again due to leakage caused by folded over gasket that was put on by Veterans Ford 667.61 + $42.50 for HCU from junkyard
5/4/2005 134,813 EFI Services, Inc – Replace driver window motor; Replace ABS EHCU customer supplied (had fault codes stored in it – cleared codes and checked parameters); Tranny would have to be removed for leak repair –declined work at time; install transmission oil cooler $883.31
8/10/2005 135,845 Wal-Mart Auto – Oil Change $22.28
9/20/2005 137,138 Rebuilt entire Transmission at place in Harahan; 36 months (3 years) 75,000 mile warranty; New right front and right rear motor mounts installed; MUST HAVE TRANNY OIL, TRANN FILTER AND INLINE MAGNEFINE IN-LINE FILTER REPLACED EVERY 12,000 MILES TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR WARRANTY; WARRANTY# W-14539; INVOICE RI14539 $1762.51
3/2/2006 145,668 Firestone ; Right Rear tire replacement; balance; no road hazard; $75.23
4/28/2006 Oil Change, New shocks/struts all around, power steering pump; alignment; right front hub bearing replaced; new front pads; machine rotors; $742.77
6/1/2006 150,160 Computer scan; replace DPFE sensor and heater hoses $356.00
6/6/2006 -
6/14/2006 Within 12,000 miles later Transmission jerking and leaking. Warranty service. $0.00
6/19/2006 Rear gate hydraulic mount repair; weld job; install new hydraulics $163.13
7/11/2006 150,876 Tune up – Plugs/Wires; Fuel Filter; Flush injectors w 3 Part Flush Kit; Replace front brake calipers and machine rotors; replace fan belt; coolant system flush; replace thermostat and seal; drain some p/s fluid and insert cleaning additive; replace exhaust hangers $823.56
End 2006 152,000ish Rolland’s Garage DIY job; Idler pulley, serpentine belt, belt tensioner, battery, alternator ground wire, positive battery terminal lead, headlight lens replacement, all replaced and Oil change; K&N filter installed (listed for 3.0L but fits 3.8L for 95) $100.00
5/2007 154,600 Towing package installed; Class III 2 inch hitch setup $330.00
5/25/2007 154,695 Oil Change and Radiator power and chemical flush $88.47
9/27/2007 157,184 IAC motor and gasket, ECM, replacement ECM revealed air flow meter fault code – replaced air flow meter at Rolland’s Garage DIY job with $35 ebay Ford OEM replacement after Diagnostic’s service $713.58 + $35
10/25/2007 HOTEL Stuck in McComb, MS due to engine overheating $242.00
10/22/2007 157,577 Legacy Ford Lincoln Mercury in McComb, MS – Labor for water pump, thermostat, and radiator replacement. Saved $300 getting my own parts. $708.88 + $293 parts

[tomj76]

It really doesn't matter much how much you've put into it for maintance and repairs. It's worth is based on the supply of other similar vehicles and the demand for them.

Here's a tool I've used:
http://www.edmunds.com/used/1995/for...tar/index.html

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tomj76

It really doesn't matter much how much you've put into it for maintance and repairs. It's worth is based on the supply of other similar vehicles and the demand for them.

Here's a tool I've used:
http://www.edmunds.com/used/1995/for...tar/index.html

Yeah, but you know man thats how the DEALERS operate and it isn't really realistic to common people. A vehicle can be worth a lot more to a given person than some dealer thinks its worth..... supply and demand for similar type vehicles I realize its there, but still fixed is fixed... like new is like new and just because of some blemishes people shouldn't be so quick to judge to negative... but I know.... thats not usually how people think and most of the time they do not have patience 1 to go over the details such as I.

Thanks for the links btw. I added that engine link to my chart of possible new engines and they rank pretty good. The only thing that concerns me is the rate of full core refund...I think the dude said something like it was freakin 30% got FULL core back and like 50% got $200 back and the rest whatever other combination of factors determined their refund or no refund at all of the core. In talking to my trusted shop they've told me many horror stories of engine reman factories LYING about the CORE upon receiving it.

[tomj76]

I don't know if you have considered replacing the head yourself. It can be done without pulling the engine. Just remove the cowl first. It's not ideal to access, (I think it's your 1-2-3 bank) but it's very doable. I pulled the rocker arm cover on mine to address worn push rods, and did not have any problems. RockAuto offers a reconditioned head for $200, and the gaskets and bolts will run you under $100.

You'd have to remove the y-pipe first (from underneath) but that's not too bad either, provided the nuts and bolts can be turned. I had to remove mine at another time, and ran into problems. I had to heat the flange bolts with a propane torch to get them to come off.

I once purchased a complete head from a junk yard for $100 (4-cyl Escort) to repair a cracked head. For this and the extra cost of the head gasket kit ($40) I was able to repair the engine and drove it 3 more years before the rest of it fell apart.

It's a fairly big undertaking, although it could be done in one weekend if you had everything ready to go when you started, and didn't run into any problems. (BIG IFs) Just make sure that you either know what you're doing, or get a good DIY manual to help you along. As always, it helps if you can get some help from someone with experience.

If you go this route, make certain that you resolve the cooling problem ASAP.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tomj76

I don't know if you have considered replacing the head yourself. It can be done without pulling the engine. Just remove the cowl first. It's not ideal to access, (I think it's your 1-2-3 bank) but it's very doable. I pulled the rocker arm cover on mine to address worn push rods, and did not have any problems. RockAuto offers a reconditioned head for $200, and the gaskets and bolts will run you under $100.

You'd have to remove the y-pipe first (from underneath) but that's not too bad either, provided the nuts and bolts can be turned. I had to remove mine at another time, and ran into problems. I had to heat the flange bolts with a propane torch to get them to come off.

I once purchased a complete head from a junk yard for $100 (4-cyl Escort) to repair a cracked head. For this and the extra cost of the head gasket kit ($40) I was able to repair the engine and drove it 3 more years before the rest of it fell apart.

It's a fairly big undertaking, although it could be done in one weekend if you had everything ready to go when you started, and didn't run into any problems. (BIG IFs) Just make sure that you either know what you're doing, or get a good DIY manual to help you along. As always, it helps if you can get some help from someone with experience.

If you go this route, make certain that you resolve the cooling problem ASAP.

The cooling problem = Ford bad design.... but I know what you mean. LOL - I've lost too much patience to undertake such a thing myself. I realize and have full confidence that I could do it all on my own .... but I also know I'd be taking a chance that would be ALL that is wrong with the old engine. I realize you are trying to help and I appreciate it... and I actually HAD NOT considered doing it all myself.... though now that you mention it I know I could. There's no way I'd finish it in a weekend though... not with me.... whenever I do something like that the first time you can safe bet it'll take 3x as long if I'm doing it cause I double check to make sure everything I'm doing is right. I end up with a job well done in the end, but again this is a hit n miss issue. What if there are worn rods or cylinders themselves or some other weird ass thing..... and I didn't mention that I KNOW FOR A FACT I have an oil leak coming from the engine.... and I think its the crank.... it looks like a round gear with triangular teeth sticking out underneath.... thats where the oil is seeping out of.

I drove 2 newer Windstars today. 1 was a 57k miles 2003 LX w/ VCR and wonderful interior and exterior. The other was 48k 2000 SE and I drove with my Dad 80 miles to go see it. The 2003 LX drove noticeably smoother than the 2000 even though the 2000 was less miles. I tell you what .... the 2000 SE I saw was absolutely immaculate.... it was as if it rolled off the showroom floor!!!!!! BUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTT..... it had the erratic shifting motion in downshift especially that my 95 Windstar started having before the tranny was on its way out. I checked the tranny fluid on it after we took it down the road and it was slightly below the tip top level that it should be at..... but what i noticed was that the fluid was absolutely CLEAR and brand new. What I found odd was that the radiator coolant was as dirty as swamp water..... but the TRANNY fluid is brand new. AMAZING COINCIDENCE? I EVEN ASKED THEM TO CHECK FOR LEAKS BEFORE I WENT OVER THERE AND THEY OF COURSE SAID IT WAS FINE NOT THINKING THAT I'D GO LOOKING UNDERNEATH IT.... AND SURE ENOUGH THERE WAS FLUID (THIN FILM OF IT; SLOW LEAK) ALL OVER THE TRANNY PAN BOTTOM. Without getting under there and lighting around there's no way to be sure where its coming from... but in my 95 the thing that went out was the torque converter and the rest of the tranny too. I was so upset about this as I had really high hopes for this SE model cause it was soooooo well taken care of as it seemed... I mean it was gorgeous. I am however not so happy with how the SE or the LX got off the line. I swear to you guys I can peel out with my 1995 GL..... but why is that??????? The GL has less HP and less torque (slightly less torque) .... so I don't get it. The weird bobbing back and forth when you rev it in park to 4000rpms where it bobs back and forth from 3500 - 4000 rpms happens on ALL Windstars apparently cause I tried that on the LX and SE I drove and it used to do it too on my 95 GL till they replaced the water pump..... which is odd..... maybe a defect in the water pump for Windstars??? who knows......

The drive in the LX was great and smooth..... but it like the SE didn't get off the line as well as my 95 GL..... though I couldn't really SPORTS CAR drive it with the damn car saleswoman in the vehicle too. Though it seemed smooth and ran great to accel...it has power...... just didn't seem to accel AS FAST as my 95 GL... I don't know what this means or if its just an illusion or what. I really wanted the SE to be good to go...... we could purchase a Ford warranty.... but then I am starting all over again with repair work. I don't want to have to go through that again. The only thing that I can find wrong with the 2003 LX was the color.... WHITE..... BLAAAAAAAAAAaa...... Don't like White on a van.... too mommy for me.... but I can ignore it cause it was a great vehicle.

Both SE and LX will cost 8800 - 9000 in the end of it all.

New engine in my current van would be approximately $2400 - $3000 total.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...... Comments?!?!?

[searcherrr]

Does anyone know if you'd lose the feeling of an additional 45 HP (in the 2nd gen Windstars 96-98 and 3rd gen 99-03) due to an added 304lbs (looked it up) of curb weight? It seems like this 304lbs would be noticeable , but that I should still notice a significant increase in power with an additional 45hp from my test drives today of the 2000 SE and 2003 LX models. I know this thread is all over the place, but I'd be interested to hear ya'lls opinions. This thread is coming to an end soon.