If theres a heaven....

[Heep]

I agree with enzo (for once ) that the Bible was written by falliable men. However, their writings were inspired and guided by God. I have yet to see one thing that contradicts another in the Bible without taking a passage out of context.

God says in the Bible that He is the Word. God is perfect and cannot lie, therefore the whole Bible must be true.

2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." These writers were inspired by God.
You also must consider that these 44 (I believe...) writers of the Bible lived in different countries, lived at vastly different times, and wrote in three separate languages. Yet every one has a unified view of God and what he says. Not a single one of these writers contradict another. So God's inspiration becomes quite clear. As mentioned earlier, God is perfect, and he would not wrongly inspire or "write" something that is false.

So, if you believe one part of the Bible, you must believe that the rest is also true. Geneologists have followed the geneology recorded in the Bible and come up with a 6000 year figure since the start of man. Man also started 6 literal days after the universe and time were created.

I agree with Isthcus about micro and macro evolution. Micro evolution most definately exists. Micro evolution can be the result of constant conditions on a person or animal. For example, black people basically exist because of the area most originally lived in, in the sun (please do not see this as racist, I mean nothing of the sort), while white people may have been more sheltered. Adaptation. Say you live in a rocky area and shoes do not exist there. Eventually, you will likely get tough feet. So will the person you will eventually marry, and have a child with. Eventually, the whole race of people from that area are going to have tough feet. Adaptation leads to micro evolution. Macro evolution, however, trys to say that dolphins eventually adapted or changed into frogs (just an example, you probly don't believe it this way), or that monkeys changed into humans. These are entirely different species, no matter how similar or different. Also, why are there still dolphins and monkeys, then?

Think about this. Most people agree that UNIVERSE = ALL MATTER. Now. "Uni" means one. "Verse" is words, or a phrase (free verse, blank verse). Therefore UNIVERSE (one word or phrase, God's words to create) = ALL MATTER.

[Heep]

Originally posted by enzo@af
And that's what bothers me about people who argue against evolution. It doesn't try to explain where the first life came from, but what happened once there was life.

The first life was created by God. Plain and simple.

[enzo@af]

Originally posted by Heep


The first life was created by God. Plain and simple.

Agreed. I don't disbelieve that, but I don't believe that it occurred 6000 years ago. Could be, but based on what I've seen, I've deduced that evidence suggest alternately.

I consider myself a christian (mostly as of recent, although I've always been spiritual), but I still don't take everything in the bible for fact. Someone, anyone, can claim that God has spoken to them. So, anyone could write something "with the inspiration of God". Thus, you would (by your apparant logic) have to believe everybody in history who has written anything "that God inspired them to".

The fact that there is little to no contradiction from the many writers of the bible means nothing to me. The stories were surely passed on and spread around, so I'm sure anyone writing already knew what was going on. Whoever finally compiled the stories surely wouldn't publish contradictions....that's how I'd explain it.

I hate to do this, but I see the bible similar to the Star Wars...many stories, often written by various writers. Some contradictions do exist, but that's okay. Think about it though....each writer already knows the original story by Lucas, so when they write it they keep discrepencies out (although some still squeak through). Also, common, Anakin has no father! Similar to anyone you know?

I question my faith constantly. Personally, I see the person struggling with developing there beliefs and faith as far more devoted than the sheep that I often see at church...there only because they know nothing else. I didn't go to church until the middle of high school, and I'm glad. The fact that I developed faith through my own accord means something to me

[enzo@af]

Oh, another fun thing about evolution.....the fact that black people have a much higher frequency of sickle cell anemia....

Why would this be? It would make sense from my previous example that such a disease would decrease the carriers' fitness, and thus eventually decrease the allele frequency. However, having such an allele (only one, having a good one forming the other part of the pair...this is called a "Heterozygote" i.e. "Aa") makes you far more resistant to Malaria. Thus, the fact that malaria was always a problem in sub-saharan Africa increased the frequency of this "harmful" disease!

But, that's just micro-evolution again. Macro evolution takes far longer because speciation often only results in small differences, barely enough to not allow breeding...such speciation must happen again, and again, and microevolution must also be happening. However, because it's a reasonable, logical, step-by-step process, it's definitely feasible. Population bottlenecks and founders effects (such as is the case with the Amish) could also account for such differences. Dolphins may still exist because there has been no need to adapt.

The fact that our carbon dating of many many fossils matches so well with the gradual changes we see in so many animals and their ancestors seems far too obvious to discredit.

Finally, why is it impossible that God, who created such wonderfully perfect things such as math, reason, and life, could also create such a perfect, logical process such as Evolution? I think it's simply a testament to the omniscience He possesses.

[Heep]

Enzo,

I very much admire your ability to reason on your own. For the first three quarters of my life, I was one of those "sheep." I was taken to church every Sunday, and I was basically brainwashed into believing it all. It wasn't until my "rebellion" in junior high that I started to study and look into things like the existence of God, the authenticity of the Bible, and Creation myself. I seriously considered the other viewpoint, but I still came up with what I was "brainwashed" into believing earlier in my life.

I encourage you to check out www.drdino.com This page is the result of a man who has studied creation and evolution his whole life. Since 1990 he offered $10000 to the person who could prove him wrong, that has recently increased to $250000. Read the articles on his site with an open mind, that's what I did in junior high. Whichever theory you end up believing, at least you will be extensively educated in both, and realize the strong and weak points of both viewpoints.

As for the authenticity of the Bible, I'll get back to you when I finish reading this booklet my pastor gave me regarding that matter.

[unite@af]

I must say that I strongly question the authenticity of a LARGE portion of the bible. As already stated these are interpretations of what was said and what took place. Considering that the groups of scholars, who formed the bible long ago, where appropriated and selected from a church. This gives the church unprecedented control over what was published. As Enzo already stated the Bible was based on constant variables. Things change. Characters in the bible change their opinions. The bible states that Paul said that women should cover their heads in public and should be silent about the church. It also states that later in life Paul qualms some of the things that he said in the past.

On a more personal note, I feel really uneducated about the bible. I know some facts. The fact that I have never sat down and read the world’s best selling book is somewhat astonishing and poignant.


PEACE...

[enzo@af]

So, how can we account for something like diamonds, which take millions of years to form? You use science to prove the age of the earth, yet science also discredits that. So, let us forget science and use logic. Perhaps, Akham's razor? Anyone?

[Bean Bandit]

I believe in a force, call it whatever you want, that is outside of our imagination (different dimension). True is the bible, tora or koran etc... didn't said anything about science but about some things they found out or shouuld be followed to have it easier in life e.g. some religions say you shouldn't eat pork this statement obviously was created while the pork plague, so it was actually a good idea to implement it into those books.
Maybe some of you have seen the movie Stigmata. In the end there is a very good point in which I totaly agree GOD(or simply that force) is within us and all around us and not the creation of the church. I realy think we don't need the Vatican and stuff. If one wants to believe he can do it without a church or a specified religion. I'm jewish but it's only a shape I put my believe in to have it easier to explain to someone!

[Adam]

Paul was Saul... of course he regretted what he said when he used to persecute Christians! Read about Paul/Saul.

I don't have time to go in depth about stuff, my Mom needs to use it... ttyl...

Heep, plz continue w/ that list! i would like to use some in when it comes time to High school papers...

[JD@af]

First off, I'd like to vent my displeasure with my co-moderator for this forum, Lizard King, whom were it not for starting this topic, I would be home chilling right now instead of being here in my office typing out a response to this thread, since I simply cannot let what has been stated go unanswered. LK, feel free to give yourself a few more good whacks in the face, or a full-on self-inflicted beating if you feel up to the task, for the suffering you are now causing me

As is, I have a couple pages put together already, but I won't submit it half-assed. I will submit it in sections to make it more palatable as I complete it. My arguments need more work to thoroughly and completely address the issues brought up the the 6,000-year supporters here. Please stay tuned...

-JD

[enzo@af]

Oh, you know we will

[Heep]

I'm posting these as per Adam's request, they are zipped, but Word (or Wordpad) format for everyone to read. They are transcripts of a very good speaker that addresses many if not all of the problems of the evolutionary story. You don't have to read them, but if you don't, you are really just closing your mind. Reading them also does not guarantee your conversion from evolution, so if you are convinced you want to believe evolution for the rest of your life, then reading these will do you no harm, just further educate you.

This is parts 1a and 1b: They deal with the Age of the Universe, which is apparently quite relevant, since that is what we're mostly talking about now. I will post the other parts if anybody requests me to.

1a: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/...01a%20Word.zip
1b: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/...01b%20Word.zip

[JD@af]

Post everything you've got. I want to leave no stone unturned in my rebuttal.

[Lizard King]

I'm looking forward to this. *rubs hands together* :alien:

This topic wasn't planned to turn out this way, I've seen before how creation/evolution topics can get very busy.

[Heep]

OK, then...

Part 2: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/...202%20Word.zip
Part 3a: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/...03a%20Word.zip
Part 3b: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/...03b%20Word.zip
Part 4a: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/...04a%20Word.zip
Part 4b: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/...04b%20Word.zip

Transcripts for parts 5-7 are apparently not yet available, but you can go here to view Real Video slideshows for those (or any) parts.

BTW, when you finish with your rebuttal, you should e-mail to this guy that came up with all this at [email protected]