THE definition of GOOD and EVIL?

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

free will is a belief that we have absolute control over our actions and thoughts.
If you truely possess free will, then free will yourself to not think, to not breath and to stop your heart beating.

I have to disagree that free will is a belief. Free will can be defined as: freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes.

Breathing and hearbeat are autonomous functions which are handled at a primitive part of the brain and not by conscious control, or we all would have died in infancy. They are not controllable by will except perhaps by a few very highly trained martial artists.

Not thinking can be achieved through meditation. Read up a little on Zen.

I think you're missing the point though, your outwardly directed actions are what are affected by your will, not necessarily your bodily functions. Will yourself to not pee. Ever.

However, we can all control our breathing and heartbeat through an act of will. Suicide by shotgun would work, and any insanity aside, would be an act of free will, aka a conscious decision to end one's own life.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

I have to disagree that free will is a belief. Free will can be defined as: freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes.

ahhh... a definition.
so are you saying that your actions are not influenced by any outside sources?
again, certain magic/mind reader experts will disagree with you there.

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

ahhh... a definition.
so are you saying that your actions are not influenced by any outside sources?
again, certain magic/mind reader experts will disagree with you there.

Nope, not at all.

Of course your decisions can be affected by outside influences. However free will is the ability to do something despite those influences.

I'm sure we all have been counseled not to spend money foolishly on something, but against all advice and common sense, went ahead and did it anyway. Then you looked back later and agreed that it was money wasted. That (to me) is a pretty good example of exercising your own free will to take an action despite outside influence. Yes, it could be argued that because of all the recommendations against it, one was influenced to do it be be rebellious. There are simply too many factors involved to make one flat statement that will cover every situation. IMO, suffice to say that some will exercise their free will in some situation, while other's won't.

[drunken monkey]

and here's why I specifically use magicians and mindreaders as example.
They suggest and implant code words/sounds/images to get certain results.
The important bit here is that they work by taking advantage of how the brain works. They are essentially able to over-ride your normal behaviour. If another human being has this capability to alter how you think
(i.e your thoughts are just preconditioned brain actions/reactions)
then it suggests that your decisions and beliefs are just preconditioned brain actions/reactions.

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

and here's why I specifically use magicians and mindreaders as example.
They suggest and implant code words/sounds/images to get certain results.
The important bit here is that they work by taking advantage of how the brain works. They are essentially able to over-ride your normal behaviour. If another human being has this capability to alter how you think
(i.e your thoughts are just preconditioned brain actions/reactions)
then it suggests that your decisions and beliefs are just preconditioned brain actions/reactions.

Yep, and you can also be fooled into making a bad investment, and the guy that burned you jets off to Tahiti.

We're not talking about being fooled, whether by illusion or graft. We're talking about you making choices. For the magician or mindreader, you had to WANT to participate, same as the investment. If you didn't participate (as in chose not to) then you weren't exposed to it. So perhaps the people that want to participate in magic shows actually want to be fooled. They chose their form of entertainment.

[drunken monkey]

it's not that simple and i am not talking about fooling someone.
There are examples of people going into events not knowing the outcome and they each succumb to the "programming".
they didn't set out wanting to be believed. In some cases, it isn't even believing something, rather that the one doing the stunt can make you do/think something. This again, indicating of how the brain works and that it is just programming.

There's a guy called Derren Brown.
In one show, he asked to interview two advertising executives.
They went to the meeting place in a taxi organised by Derren Brown where they had a simple brain storming exercise for an idea.
They know who Derren Brown is and what he does and the excercise was to illustrate the power of subliminal messages and advertising.

In short, their eventual idea and conceptual sketches matched 994.873% (random number my own...) with what Derren Brown had drawn and sealed before they turned up at the office.

Apparently, along the route, there were lots of little things placed that you wouldn't actively notice but would ultimately immediately affect what they would end up drawing.
They were free to think of whatever they wanted and come up with any idea that they wanted and draw whatever they wanted. In the terms of this discussion, during the excercise, they were doing things out of their own "free will" except that free will was influenced by Derren Brown before they even stepped into the office.

[thrasher]

There is significant evidence from studies with animals that behavior can be predicted using algorithms, particularly with animals that display quite simple behaviors. This indicates that behavior may be merely a biochemical response controlled by genetec and evnironmental factors, and that no mental processing, no conscious choice is actually involved in controlling the behavior. There is no reason to think that humans are any different. Our behaviors are more complex, but they involve responses to environmental stimuli and are also affected by out genetic disposition to certain behaviors, a point I don't think anybody would argue with. For example, computers have been found to better predict the behavior of humans under specific environmental (experimental) conditions than other humans are. Our "free will" is likely only a response determined by factors outside of our control, and in that sense might actually be pre-determined in a sense. Given enough information about previous choices and genetic/environmental factors specific to every person, I would bet that computers could accurately predict the behavior of a specific person in nearly any situation.

[fredjacksonsan]

The brain is a highly complex thing, and no one understands more than the merest basics.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

it's not that simple and i am not talking about fooling someone.
There are examples of people going into events not knowing the outcome and they each succumb to the "programming".
they didn't set out wanting to be believed. In some cases, it isn't even believing something, rather that the one doing the stunt can make you do/think something. This again, indicating of how the brain works and that it is just programming.

Brainwashing. Check out The Manchurian Candidate sometime (the original)

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

There's a guy called Derren Brown.
In one show, he asked to interview two advertising executives.
They went to the meeting place in a taxi organised by Derren Brown where they had a simple brain storming exercise for an idea.
They know who Derren Brown is and what he does and the excercise was to illustrate the power of subliminal messages and advertising.

In short, their eventual idea and conceptual sketches matched 994.873% (random number my own...) with what Derren Brown had drawn and sealed before they turned up at the office.

Apparently, along the route, there were lots of little things placed that you wouldn't actively notice but would ultimately immediately affect what they would end up drawing.
They were free to think of whatever they wanted and come up with any idea that they wanted and draw whatever they wanted. In the terms of this discussion, during the excercise, they were doing things out of their own "free will" except that free will was influenced by Derren Brown before they even stepped into the office.

So he very cleverly manipulated the people riding in the cab. I agree that manipulation is certainly possible, and the in certain situations people are more likely to act in a certain way.

[MonsterBengt]

The basics of the brain is all that matters, since you cannot draw a line between the two. The brain is the organ what distribute commands, collect information of the body's surroundings and adapt to it to survive. Why would nature create something unexplainable, mysterious, with the power to turn against itself or to choose not to sruvive and implant into a living being (which is something that's designed to survive and expand) ? Why I ask? It is all just a very very simple explanation, kinda like how parents explain things to their smallest ones. "Daad, daad, where do babies come from?" "Well.. God puts them in your mommy's stomach.. Then it pops out". The small one's is fine with that and don't ask anymore questions, since it makes sence right? God, who obviously exists, puts the baby in there. No questions asked.

Hear my controversy;
Feelings are electric impulses generated by one part of the brain to make the other part do whatever is necessary to survive (survive as in many different forms). Love is to make the body reproduce. Fear is to make your body avoid dangers (Fear for something you shouldn't fear is your brain's failure to adaptto new fears. Although is makes a good enough job refering to new things as dangerous; guns, electricity, bombs). Curiosity is part of the brains nature to expand (still thinking of a reason why, though that's not important at the moment). Free will does not exist as you know it. Free will in reality would be the brain's ability to adapt. You have a kliché feeling to it all, that's how you stay inside the box. See it as it really is. Analyze.

Another reasons for your belief is that you cannot see how your consciousness would be "fake", right? Since you do acknowledge the things I write here, and "choose" to reply. Then think if it in yet another perspective; Let's say Free will exists, then how would the consciousness of a being without it look? And what i've been saying all along; If it doesn't exist, then how does the consciousness of a being with it look?

[nismogt_rfreak]

Animals rely on preprogrammed instinct. They know one way to do something and they do it. Humans, on the other hand, can choose different approaches to the same goal and create new approaches to the goal. This expanding programming is free will.

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by MonsterBengt

Hear my controversy;
Feelings are electric impulses generated by one part of the brain to make the other part do whatever is necessary to survive (survive as in many different forms). Love is to make the body reproduce. Fear is to make your body avoid dangers (Fear for something you shouldn't fear is your brain's failure to adaptto new fears. Although is makes a good enough job refering to new things as dangerous; guns, electricity, bombs). Curiosity is part of the brains nature to expand (still thinking of a reason why, though that's not important at the moment). Free will does not exist as you know it. Free will in reality would be the brain's ability to adapt. You have a kliché feeling to it all, that's how you stay inside the box. See it as it really is. Analyze.

Agreed. The idea of the brain being a tool we use to solve new problems and help us adapt is pretty well established, and is essentially the reason we have been able to evolve to the point we have.

Animals rely on preprogrammed instinct. They know one way to do something and they do it. Humans, on the other hand, can choose different approaches to the same goal and create new approaches to the goal. This expanding programming is free will.

There is simply no scientific evidence to corroborate what you are saying. The human mind is not fundamentally different from "animals", especially higher primates like chimps, bonobos, gorillas, and orangs. These species are able to solve problems and process information above that of the level pre-teens and even early teens in some cases. Their brains function very similarly to ours, and given our evolutionary relationships, this shouldn't be a surprise. So would you say, based on this information, that ALL higher primates have free will? I don't think so. Our minds have an expanded capability for problem solving, but problem solving still exists in other species...it's just a variation on a theme. MonsterBengt said and I'll say it too; free will does not exist. We are pre-programmed just all other species are. Our actions change in response to environmental conditions in very complex ways, but that is all that it is.

[LjasonL]

I haven't read any of the replies and only the first sentence of the original post, but...

First of all, there's no such thing as evil. 'Evil' is only that which you personally find greatly displeasurable. The person you believe is doing 'evil' is doing 'good' in their own eyes.

Example: you think Hitler was evil, or performed evil actions at least. Hitler believed he was performing a great service to humanity. There is no desire to perform evil, there is no one that chooses to be evil. There are only different views as to what is good, and in our self importance we classify ideas that contradict with our own idea of good as 'evil'.

[drunken monkey]

strangely enough, I was just re-watching the Jet Li/Tony Leung/Donnie Yen/Maggie Cheung film Hero the other day...

[Muscletang]

Athiest:

Evil is nothing more than the inability to ignore or keep your "basic animal urges and instincts" in check.

Believer:

There is a God and a Devil. One is good and one is evil.


Anyway, I'm in the believer camp and I didn't go into details because it's too late. Ask me tomorrow for a better description for both.

[MonsterBengt]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Athiest:

Evil is nothing more than the inability to ignore or keep your "basic animal urges and instincts" in check.

Believer:

There is a God and a Devil. One is good and one is evil.


Anyway, I'm in the believer camp and I didn't go into details because it's too late. Ask me tomorrow for a better description for both.

I'm asking you for a description of your side of it.

Originally Posted by thrasher

There is simply no scientific evidence to corroborate what you are saying. The human mind is not fundamentally different from "animals", especially higher primates like chimps, bonobos, gorillas, and orangs. These species are able to solve problems and process information above that of the level pre-teens and even early teens in some cases. Their brains function very similarly to ours, and given our evolutionary relationships, this shouldn't be a surprise. So would you say, based on this information, that ALL higher primates have free will? I don't think so. Our minds have an expanded capability for problem solving, but problem solving still exists in other species...it's just a variation on a theme. MonsterBengt said and I'll say it too; free will does not exist. We are pre-programmed just all other species are. Our actions change in response to environmental conditions in very complex ways, but that is all that it is.

I have this story for you;
We have this thin metal blinds we're all familiar with, and we're also familliar to the sound they make when the wind blows trough an open window. So we we're sitting at home watching TV. Then I thought it was getting hot inside and decided to open a window. 10min later, I still felt it was too hot inside, so I headed for another window, in the opposite side of the room. Then suddenly my dog, who was lying sleeping under the coffetable, ran off up teh stairs and hid in my parents bedroom because he's really scared of the sound the blinds make. He actually knew that by opening two windows, there would be a wind draught that'd make the blinds make alot of noise. And he didn't move when I opened the first window. And this is not even a top end primate.