FWD Trans to Midengine conversion

[Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

no..... i have this.... hollow feeling inside me now....

Oh, you're just being a pessimist. Things will get better when we get around to the front suspension.........

[Moppie]

Don't even go there my Chapman loving porcine friend, because you know the next step will be AWD, with a solid front axle. Steering will be by a centre pivot in the axle, and a couple of ropes tied to each end of the axle.

[Hi Tech]

Forgive me for not being as booksmart as you, TSC, but I've just never had any desire to study Front Wheel Drive anything, until I recently realized that I can convert it to a more practical application as a Rear Wheel Drive transaxle, for my own purpose.

Just because I have a better understanding of what I was trying to figure out in the first place, does not make me an expert, and I never said that it did!
Obviously, you aren't such an expert, either, or you wouldn't just tell me the differences between a CV axle and a straight or solid axle, which I already know, but you'd be able to tell me how to Interchange them, and use them with a suspension that isn't intended to work, but does!

I never asked your opinion of whether it's practical or not, I just asked how it can be done! And, you don't know, because you've never done it, either!

Thanks for your approval to go ahead with my project, as I've already started it, anyway!

Now, rope steering...?
Hmm.
Multipurpose uses, as:
- emergency belt replacement
- tow line to pull other vehicles
- power winch
Jack rear wheels above ground (don't forget to use jackstands, for safety), tie one end to U-joint of driveshaft, and other end to object that you want to pull, shift into Drive, slowly accelerate for rope to wrap around driveshaft.
If vehicle starts moving sideways, then reposition vehicle between 2 trees for more secure leverage...

Moppie, you have potential Redneck Engineering qualities...

I'm proud to be a City boy!

[TheSilentChamber]

You may not have asked for it, but this is a forum, you get whats coming to you.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by TheSilentChamber

You may not have asked for it, but this is a forum, you get whats coming to you.

Down boy!

Originally Posted by Hi Tech

!
Obviously, you aren't such an expert, either, or you wouldn't just tell me the differences between a CV axle and a straight or solid axle, which I already know, but you'd be able to tell me how to Interchange them, and use them with a suspension that isn't intended to work, but does!

I never asked your opinion of whether it's practical or not, I just asked how it can be done! And, you don't know, because you've never done it, either!

Unfortunatly you seem to still be missing something.
It maybe a technical language barrier, or it be your lack of experiance, but its the reason there is hostility brewing in this thread, and Im glad your taking it so well.
But, the point is being made, that with with a FWD transaxle you HAVE to have some kind of sectioned driveshafts capable of flexing, i.e. through a C.V. joint if you want to have suspension that will work.
If you use a straight axle, then when the wheel moves up and down the axle will go with it, the transaxle will go with the axle, and the engine goes with the transaxle.
As has been stated it does not produce a suspension set up that is useable. Any car with that sort of set up would have in-surmountable traction problems, and very dangerous handling chararistics.

And you can not build a car capable of traveling at more than about 30kph with out fitting it with a working suspension system.

Quite simply you can not use a straight axle on your project, sorry you can, but the car will kill you and anyone who gets in its way.
Any project you saw with straight axles was either dangeroulsy and badly engineered, or you were misled.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by Hi Tech

I never asked your opinion of whether it's practical or not, I just asked how it can be done! And, you don't know, because you've never done it, either!

there are reasons why certain things just aren't done.
mostly they are down to common sense. In the cases where it isn't common sense, it is usually down to technical knowledge of the thing being done.

the reason why he had never done it before is because he knows better.

for example:
you might want to put your fingers into fire.
I tell you not to because I say it will, more than likely, hurt.
You ask if I've done it before.
I say "no".
You say:

Originally Posted by Hi Tech

you don't know, because you've never done it, either!

simple fact here is that everyone has told you not to do what you suggested and have given reasons why you shouldn't. They have also given you ways of doing what you want to do but better which you dismissed. Then you come back and say that you "found" a way of doing it after looking at how lamborghini did it and lo and behold, it was what they've been telling you here all along.

incidentally, you say you've started on this project already.
what have you gotten done?
got any pics of the progress?

[Hi Tech]

Originally Posted by Moppie

Down boy!



Unfortunatly you seem to still be missing something.
It maybe a technical language barrier, or it be your lack of experiance, but its the reason there is hostility brewing in this thread, and Im glad your taking it so well.
But, the point is being made, that with with a FWD transaxle you HAVE to have some kind of sectioned driveshafts capable of flexing, i.e. through a C.V. joint if you want to have suspension that will work.
If you use a straight axle, then when the wheel moves up and down the axle will go with it, the transaxle will go with the axle, and the engine goes with the transaxle.
As has been stated it does not produce a suspension set up that is useable. Any car with that sort of set up would have in-surmountable traction problems, and very dangerous handling chararistics.

And you can not build a car capable of traveling at more than about 30kph with out fitting it with a working suspension system.

Quite simply you can not use a straight axle on your project, sorry you can, but the car will kill you and anyone who gets in its way.
Any project you saw with straight axles was either dangeroulsy and badly engineered, or you were misled.

I can appreciate this, Moppie, and that has been my whole purpose of asking the question, as an informational discussion only, not as a debate about who has more knowledge, or experience, or skill to do what I'm trying to do, that most likely not many others have even tried, but has been done before.

I have no hostility towards anyone here, especially TSC, and, respectfully, I've appreciated his attention to detail in his technical explanations, such as the Fiberglass 101 tutorial, for example. I've found that to be very informative and useful, and just from that I learned to repair my own Hoods, Hood Scoops, and a couple of other small projects that I was working on at the time.

I've never argued with anyone here about any explanations, as I understand them, and I agree with them! I've just been trying to use the information at a higher level, to actually apply it to the project that I'm working on!

This discussion is only a minor part of what lies ahead for me, with the fabrication, and assembly, compared to what I'm getting myself into, now, by building this vehicle on my own, and I already realize that, before I get more into it, but I'm building it, anyway, just to say that (at this point) I CAN, and (when it's finished) I DID IT!

[drunken monkey]

......so why on earth did it take 4 pages for you to accept that you need to have a suspended rear end? Do you really believe that people have been replying without experience with things like this?

[Hi Tech]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

......so why on earth did it take 4 pages for you to accept that you need to have a suspended rear end? Do you really believe that people have been replying without experience with things like this?

Let me answer your question, the best way that I can, from my observations here.

I originally asked a question, regarding a specific suspension design that I saw ONCE! I asked how it was possible for this type of suspension to work, as I didn't understand it, myself, but since the owner was driving the car, then it "must have" worked, somehow!

Then it turned into reasons and opinions of why NOT to use the same suspension that he built and used, from theories and common knowledge (only explaining differences, and components, but not explaining how the one guy did it, which is what I was asking).

Everyone has different types of experience.

So, you know the differences between FWD suspension and RWD suspension.
Are you also familiar with Retractable Helicopter Landing Gear?

Would you know how to install it in a Boat, that you'd like to turn into an Amphibious vehicle?

Do you see the point I'm trying to make, here?

Just that I'm trying to take 2 different kinds of vehicles, and combine them, to make a different, performance based car, that most people will never see, but that I will build and own and enjoy, for myself, just for the satisfaction of doing it, myself.
I don't expect it to be easy, but I don't expect it to be impossible, either, and I am confident that I can do this, with parts that I already have, and parts that should be easy to get, or that I can go have made!

I don't need to know WHY it works, just HOW it goes together!

[Moppie]

Ok, I think that what ever you saw was either a dangerous abomination of a vechile that should never be allowed on the road, or you were mislead in what you saw.

As has been said so many times, you seem to not be able to grasp, a fixed axle mounted to a transaxle that is then mounted to an engine means you either have no suspension, or whole assembly has to move with the suspension, which make having any suspension pointless to begin with as there is far to much sprung weight for it ever to work safely and effectivly.


There have been very few opinions offered in this thread, but lots of engeering fact. Facts that if you want to build what you claim you are building you need to understand and listen to.

[Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by Hi Tech

Obviously, you aren't such an expert, either, or you wouldn't just tell me the differences between a CV axle and a straight or solid axle, which I already know, but you'd be able to tell me how to Interchange them, and use them with a suspension that isn't intended to work, but does!

:

Hey!
I wonder if what he was looking at was the fixed length of driveshaft coming off the transaxle that equalises the length of what would normally be two very different length of half- shafts. Helps to cut down on torque steer a bit by keeping the CV joint motion angles closer together.
Don't know if Olds Toro or Caddys have this item, but it's thought. A useless feature if its at the rear 'tho.

[Moppie]

An intermediate shaft?
All the Honda B series engines have them, theres a bearing mounted to the engine block that carries the shaft out so the axles on each side are the same length.

It might be what he saw, either a stock one, or a custom built one, which wouldn't be that hard to do.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by Hi Tech

So, you know the differences between FWD suspension and RWD suspension.
Are you also familiar with Retractable Helicopter Landing Gear?

Would you know how to install it in a Boat, that you'd like to turn into an Amphibious vehicle?

what I know or do not know isn't the point here as i am not the one asking a question and not listening to the replies.
incidentally, i have a pretty good idea of how to use a car engine to ALSO power the prop for an amphibious car. the thing i would humm over would be do i go for sealled hull (and hence pig ugly...) or go for bouyancy aids (and hence pig ugly....).

Originally Posted by Hi Tech

Then it turned into reasons and opinions of why NOT to use the same suspension that he built and used, from theories and common knowledge (only explaining differences, and components, but not explaining how the one guy did it, which is what I was asking).

so common that you didn't know what they were talking about?
and if you didn't know what they were talking about, how are we to be sure if what you describe is what you even actually saw?

Originally Posted by Hi Tech

I don't need to know WHY it works, just HOW it goes together!

and i say you do need to know why it works.
like i said (elsewhere) before.
the act of utilising a IRS system isn't as simple as bolting on the wishbones and sticking a damper and spring inbetween them to support the chassis.
To set them up properly, you need to have some sort of knowledge of the numbers involved and the behaviour of your chosen parts under different types of stress.
Any fool can bolt a pair of wishbones onto a tube frame.

And let's put it another way.
People here have explained to you WHY what you suggested on page one won't work. They have also told you HOW to do things that will work.

Which one do you want again?

so, once again, how far have you gotten into this project and what have you gotten done so far?

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by Moppie

An intermediate shaft?
All the Honda B series engines have them, theres a bearing mounted to the engine block that carries the shaft out so the axles on each side are the same length.

It might be what he saw, either a stock one, or a custom built one, which wouldn't be that hard to do.

i don't actually recall him telling us what he saw beyond that he knows of a car that had a similar engine transplant to the mid of the car. The solid axle was something he suggested. It might not be what was done to the car he saw.