Debate: Are ghosts real or not?

[lazysmurff]

look, its rather simple to prove ghosts (at least the way people think about them) dont exist. follow with me here:

1: matter can be niether created nor destroyed
2: therefore, the amount of matter on earth yesterday, must equal the amount of matter on earth 2000 years ago, and 2000 years from now.
3: ghosts must be made of matter in order to affect other things made of matter
4: the earths population has increased
5: if matter from dead people isnt ending up elsewhere, but instead residing in ghosts, what accounts for the increase in matter needed to explain the increase in population?

[youngvr4]

are you serious? matter has nothing to do with ghosts(depending on how you look at it)

and IF ghosts exist, we cant understand what its made of, because we can't study souls

c'mon now people

[82KnightRider]

I think ghost on earth are here because theyre just waiting to see if their going to heaven or hell.

[Muscletang]

I'm a Christian and read the Bible and this is what I think about ghost.

1. when people die their soul goes to heaven or hell and DOES NOT wander around the earth

2. the Bible says satan and his demons have control of the earth at this time, this makes me believe that all "ghost" are nothing but demons, they take the form of men, women, or children because they can, they can read our minds and take the form of Uncle Buck who died a few years ago to trick us or whatever

3. science has showed us that "ghost" exist or something does, certain machines finding differences in heat, electric current in the air, energy waves, light waves, radio waves, ect. something has to be causing these changes

[chacal]

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz
See that's different because thos things are man-made. So answer me this one then, do you beleieve in God?

An orange is man made??? A body is man made??? I was thinking about the human body. Well, I think you can say the human body is man-made... But not the orange, not the orange!!! :22yikes:
I said it before and I'll say it again: don't mix God and ghosts.

Originally Posted by Muscletang
1. when people die their soul goes to heaven or hell and DOES NOT wander around the earth

2. the Bible says satan and his demons have control of the earth at this time, this makes me believe that all "ghost" are nothing but demons, they take the form of men, women, or children because they can, they can read our minds and take the form of Uncle Buck who died a few years ago to trick us or whatever

3. science has showed us that "ghost" exist or something does, certain machines finding differences in heat, electric current in the air, energy waves, light waves, radio waves, ect. something has to be causing these changes

1. AMEN!
2. The Bible doesn't say we are controled by demons. Nobody can read your mind. You can't read anyone's mind.
3.
Science NEVER showed us that "ghost" exist. In fact, every single "ghost" thorougly examined by scientific methods was proven either to have natural causes or to be a joke or a scam.
There are things science cannot explain - yet. Science is moving. Take epilepsy. For a long time, it was seen as "possession by the devil". Now we know it is a disease. Now take black holes. We know there are black holes, we don't know exactly what is a black hole - but we can't say "a black hole is a ghost"!

BTW: I haven't seen any ghost this night... I saw some girls who were OUT OF THIS WORLD but they surely were no ghosts!!!

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by chacal

1. AMEN!
2. The Bible doesn't say we are controled by demons. Nobody can read your mind. You can't read anyone's mind.
3.
Science NEVER showed us that "ghost" exist. In fact, every single "ghost" thorougly examined by scientific methods was proven either to have natural causes or to be a joke or a scam.
There are things science cannot explain - yet. Science is moving. Take epilepsy. For a long time, it was seen as "possession by the devil". Now we know it is a disease. Now take black holes. We know there are black holes, we don't know exactly what is a black hole - but we can't say "a black hole is a ghost"!

BTW: I haven't seen any ghost this night... I saw some girls who were OUT OF THIS WORLD but they surely were no ghosts!!!

I never said we were controled by demons. The Bibles says satan and his demons have control of the earth. This is their domain, their kingdom, and we're living in it. Also, why couldn't satan or a demon read our mind?

Also I said science has shown us that something exist that goes beyond our knowledge. I talked about the machines picking up changes in heat, static electricity, ect when these "weird" things were going on in a room.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

look, its rather simple to prove ghosts (at least the way people think about them) dont exist. follow with me here:

1: matter can be niether created nor destroyed
2: therefore, the amount of matter on earth yesterday, must equal the amount of matter on earth 2000 years ago, and 2000 years from now.
3: ghosts must be made of matter in order to affect other things made of matter
4: the earths population has increased
5: if matter from dead people isnt ending up elsewhere, but instead residing in ghosts, what accounts for the increase in matter needed to explain the increase in population?

If I were grading this 'logic' you'd have an F.

1- 2. Matter can be converted to energy and energy dissapaites. Hence, the amount of matter on the planet is not constant. (both coming and going)
3. Things to not have to have matter to affect their surroundings. Care to tell me how much gravitons weigh?
4. Immaterial
5. There does not have to be an increate in matter to have an increase in people. Perhaps the decrease in the number of cows would be your explanation.

Though I agree with you that there are no ghosts, I am amused at your steps at coming to that conclusion.

[chacal]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

I never said we were controled by demons. The Bibles says satan and his demons have control of the earth. This is their domain, their kingdom, and we're living in it. Also, why couldn't satan or a demon read our mind?

Also I said science has shown us that something exist that goes beyond our knowledge. I talked about the machines picking up changes in heat, static electricity, ect when these "weird" things were going on in a room.

OK, maybe I should have used other words. To me, controlling the earth means controlling everithing on it, including us. The bible doesn't say that. Demons in the bible are symbols for the temptation. I don't think it is ever intended to be read in the way you read it. Demons are not among us, so they can't read your mind. Simple.

Science has shown us that something exist that goes beyond our knowledge, but that doesn't mean:
1. it will allways be beyond our knowledge
2. it is a ghost!
And don't take for granted science can't explain a temprature drop or static electricity changes. The explanations exist, starting with measuring instrument malfunction.

That's the error humans have made since our cave-dwelling ancestors roamed the earth. When they had no rational explanation, they invoked spirits and magical events. Any explanation would be better than chaos! If they could invoke spirits, it had a flavour of power over reality. I'd say it was cool! That's why so many of us still speak of ghosts.

[lazysmurff]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

If I were grading this 'logic' you'd have an F.

strange, i got a "b" in logic...

anyways, i know the argument was ridiculously weak. i knew it when i formulated it, i knew it when i typed it, and i knew it when i hit "submit"

thing is, i didnt care. posting this argument was mostly about humoring myself, making a point i knew noone would get.

it makes no sense, which happens to be about as much sense as anyone elses post on the topic, and the topic itself. this is not a philosophical question, and therefore shouldnt be here. so i thought id have fun.

sorry.

oh, and ghosts dont exist. deal with it.

[fredjacksonsan]

OK so maybe the traditional term of "ghost" doesn't fit. What about the term "extradimensional being"? Science has spoken of the possibility of another dimension of being, wormholes, alternate universes, etc. Isn't it possible that someone in an alternate universe could be viewed as a "ghost" here? Or maybe time folds upon itself, and the "ghosts" seen are some sort of overlap in time, so we see a shadow or feel something from "the other side".

Originally Posted by LAZYSMURF

oh, and ghosts dont exist. deal with it.

How can you be so ignorant as to make a flat statement of denial?

I'm not talking specifically about ghosts now, but in general and about any subject. How do you back up your argument?? It's just like me saying, "Ghosts DO exist, deal with it" which I'm sure you wouldn't accept as truth just because I say so. You SURELY won't believe something I say without any evidence, why should your statement be accepted as true and correct by anyone?

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

look, its rather simple to prove ghosts (at least the way people think about them) dont exist. follow with me here:

1: matter can be niether created nor destroyed
2: therefore, the amount of matter on earth yesterday, must equal the amount of matter on earth 2000 years ago, and 2000 years from now.
3: ghosts must be made of matter in order to affect other things made of matter
4: the earths population has increased
5: if matter from dead people isnt ending up elsewhere, but instead residing in ghosts, what accounts for the increase in matter needed to explain the increase in population?

And this proves nothing.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

I'm not talking specifically about ghosts now, but in general and about any subject. How do you back up your argument?? It's just like me saying, "Ghosts DO exist, deal with it" which I'm sure you wouldn't accept as truth just because I say so. You SURELY won't believe something I say without any evidence, why should your statement be accepted as true and correct by anyone?

One cannot prove a negative. It is incumbent upon those that believe that something exists to prove its existence and not the converse.

Though his approach might be grating and his conclusion may indeed be wrong (which it isn't), he's right that he doesn't have to prove anything. He and I can refute evidence of ghosts but not have to prove that they don't exist.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by chacal

OK, maybe I should have used other words. To me, controlling the earth means controlling everithing on it, including us. The bible doesn't say that. Demons in the bible are symbols for the temptation. I don't think it is ever intended to be read in the way you read it. Demons are not among us, so they can't read your mind. Simple.

Job 1:7 and 2:2 These two verses talk about Satan talking to God about walking around the earth.

There is another verse I forget what but talks of Satan being a lion walking the earth waiting to devour the weak.

Mathew 8:28-34 These lines talk about Jesus coming upon a man possessed by demons. The demons ask Jesus "What have we to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come to hither to torment us before the time?" Jesus then cast the demons out to some pigs.

So it says it right there in the Bible that demons are in fact on the earth. Where else would they be, hell? No, Satan and his demons are on the earth and are in control of it until the finale battle where they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

The reason I believe "ghost" are demons is to throw people off. If a Christian believes you go to Heaven or Hell after you die and they see their uncle two weeks after he died, they'll start to wonder if their religion is right.
Remember, it says in the Bible Satan and his demons are trying to get as many people to join them as possible. A demon could read your mind and use that against you to turn you away from your beliefs.

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

look, its rather simple to prove ghosts (at least the way people think about them) dont exist. follow with me here:

1: matter can be niether created nor destroyed
2: therefore, the amount of matter on earth yesterday, must equal the amount of matter on earth 2000 years ago, and 2000 years from now.
3: ghosts must be made of matter in order to affect other things made of matter
4: the earths population has increased
5: if matter from dead people isnt ending up elsewhere, but instead residing in ghosts, what accounts for the increase in matter needed to explain the increase in population?

Actually you're really close but still a little wrong on this. Einstein used this argument to define the after lift. He said energy, not matter, is neither created nor destroyed and humans are nothing but forms of energy.

True, matter can be neither created nor destroyed but a ghost really wouldn't be matter I think, but energy, like Einstein theorized.

[fredjacksonsan]

We're at different ends of a debate. The subject matter is whether something exists or not. This "something" does not have any empirical evidence of any sort to either prove or disprove the existence of said something. There are strong opinions on both sides, which fuel the debate.

Several persons involved in the debate have had experiences which would lead them to believe that this something exists. Others have secondhand stories about this something existing. There are those that deny outright the existence, and others who are neutral.

I believe that the proof of existence desired by those that disbelieve is not yet available; I also think that the proof required to disprove said existence is also currently unavailable.

This situation is similar to some during history; for example the explorers of the southern pacific returning to England with stories that there were women who walked around topless on the islands. Scandalous! Fabrication! Many did not believe the stories, which were later proven true. But people had seen and experienced something, told others who did not believe them; they were laughed at, believed, or just ignored, depending on the audience. Similar occurrences were involved in other things, anything from animals to cities to gunpowder and plants. Until the disbelievers saw with their own eyes, or the science was discovered independently, there was a huge population of people that had heard but not believed. Another example comes from early colonial America. There were stories that the natives had smoke coming from their mouths. Now smoking tobacco (and other substances) is commonplace. Even the telephone was (for a time) written off as a fabrication until demonstrated.

So Yogs, can you actually make a flat determination without empirical evidence that something does not exist, when in fact the tools for proving or disproving existence are not to our knowledge in existence?

And if so, why? What is the motivation behind the denial? Is it logic? Emotion? Faith? Or some other motivational reason?

[youngvr4]

i do know, for those of you who say you read the bible and it says your going straight to heaven should look a little closer. you'll be amazed about how many rumors there are about the bible.

i like this debate, its not so tense