electoral votes

[TRD2000]

i still think popular vote is the only way to have a democracy that is not corrupt.

[Murco]

Originally Posted by TRD2000

i still think popular vote is the only way to have a democracy that is not corrupt.

For the last time......
The UNITED STATES is not a DEMOCRACY!!!!!!
It is a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC!!!!

Do you know the difference??!!

[TRD2000]

always with the US this US that... i don't give a fuck!

regardless of what the US is, democracy requires everyones votes be equal and counted.

you do have a good point the US (and most other countries people call democracies) is NOT a democracy... and so it would be nice if the media and polititians stopped trying to sing the praises of a democratic system when they aren't in one!

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by TRD2000

regardless of what the US is, democracy requires everyones votes be equal and counted.

Everyone's votes are equal and counted.

[TRD2000]

i'm assuming you are referring to the US.

in which case everyone (who votes) vote is equal and counted at a state level.

then the minority group from each state is neglected.... so therefore federally it has no value and is not counted.

the minority groups could easily make up the majority of the state. and if there were more parties or votes were split between more candidates it is quite conceivable that the vast majority of the population would have their votes discarded. (note: this majority would have not voted for the successful candidate, rather they would have voted for a mixture of other possible candidates)

in different states with different populations and different numbers of electral votes, each vote (from the majority and minority groups) is worth a different amount federally.
some state with 500K pop and 3EV means 1EV per 166K people.
another state with like 30M pop and 55EV means 1EV per 545K people.

that means that the in the first state your vote is worth 3 times as much as a person from the second state.

now. That is how i reach the conclusion that this system does not make every persons vote equal or make them count.

please attempt to explain how they are equal and inclusive because i'd love to know.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by TRD2000

i'm assuming you are referring to the US.

in which case everyone (who votes) vote is equal and counted at a state level.

then the minority group from each state is neglected.... so therefore federally it has no value and is not counted.

the minority groups could easily make up the majority of the state. and if there were more parties or votes were split between more candidates it is quite conceivable that the vast majority of the population would have their votes discarded. (note: this majority would have not voted for the successful candidate, rather they would have voted for a mixture of other possible candidates)

in different states with different populations and different numbers of electral votes, each vote (from the majority and minority groups) is worth a different amount federally.
some state with 500K pop and 3EV means 1EV per 166K people.
another state with like 30M pop and 55EV means 1EV per 545K people.

that means that the in the first state your vote is worth 3 times as much as a person from the second state.

now. That is how i reach the conclusion that this system does not make every persons vote equal or make them count.

please attempt to explain how they are equal and inclusive because i'd love to know.

It sounds like you want everyone to be happy well you can't pleae everyone. We work on the majority of people rule. The only way for the majority and minority to be counted the way you want is to have only one person running for elected office.

Your EC example is wrong we have 531 EC votes and we have 531 congressmen and senators. Each EC vote goes for each congressal district and each senate district.. Each district should have the same number of people so that would mean each vote is equal.

[TRD2000]

no. by abolishing the stupid hypocritical EV system a popular vote could determine nationally from as many applicants as wanted to stand. Hard concept, but it really is a fundamental of voting. as i've said before, voter education should really be compulsary.... you score a fail.

and you're a little confused about your EV system cause each vote does NOT have the same number of people behind it.

go away and read.
http://www.aimlesswords.com/archives...toral_college/

you have FAILED to show that votes are equal, and you have not even attempted to show that all votes are counted as your original statement explicitly said.

as it turns out. In this election, Bush deserved to win, he had the support of the people, and the EV system fortunately reflected that. In the last election his win was a farce on democracy.... most people voted against him but the minority that voted for him effectively had votes that were worth more. The system is a FAILURE.... i guess it suits you.

[lakerfan1784]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

Your EC example is wrong we have 531 EC votes and we have 531 congressmen and senators. Each EC vote goes for each congressal district and each senate district.. Each district should have the same number of people so that would mean each vote is equal.

there are 538 electoral votes, thats why 270 are needed for a majority win. California has 53 reps, and 2 senators. Assuming they have 30 million people, each representative has 566,000 people. Michigan has 15 reps, and a total population of 10 million approximately, so that would be 666,667 people per rep. I am sure that California has more than 30 million, so you get the point. You are right, each rep (approx) counts for about the same number of people. Population shifts, expansions etc. cant be accounted for right away. With the population expanding, I would assume that certain states would get more reps.

[YogsVR4]

There is something that a few people are ignoring. Its the STATES that pick the president - not the general population. The only federal election is for the President and the states chose who they want to lead them. Each states is represented by its portion of the congressional delegation. As I said before, each state wisely asks its citizens (instead of letting the governer pick) to vote for its electors. Though its presented as voting directly for the president, it isn't.

To many people in this country did not pay attention in civics. To many people inside and outside this country are making to many assumptions. Heres a some information for those who want to know how it works instead of pretending they know
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/vot...lections.shtml
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/c...n/amendment12/
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...dmentxxii.html
http://users.aristotle.net/~hantley/...tu/amend23.htm

[TRD2000]

so california and michigan are close... unless Alaska has like 1.5 million people then their votes are a little out....
reps count approximately the same number of people... but votes are NOT equal. alaska should have 1 vote for its 600k odd people. not 3.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by TRD2000

so california and michigan are close... unless Alaska has like 1.5 million people then their votes are a little out....
reps count approximately the same number of people... but votes are NOT equal. alaska should have 1 vote for its 600k odd people. not 3.

You get one electroal vote for the 600K people and 2 votes for the senators which equals 3 total electraol votes.

[aloharocky]

I want the electorl college gone. A month before the election, the GOP and DNC were dead even, and our arrogant, snobbish limo-liberal delegates said, "we're still voting for Kerry because Kerry is what Hawaii REALLY wants."

[TRD2000]

i know why the small states have 3 times the voting power. the fact is in those states your vote counts for more... its the way it is in the american system, it's not democratic, and i know i know... America is a republic not a democracy.

[Murco]

Let's end this head-banging thread!! We'll start it again in 3.5 years anyway!!

[YogsVR4]

Links have been posted in how the system works. Why it works and how it can be changed. We've gone round and round enough times.