The disgrace of Guantanamo Bay

[TRD2000]

Originally Posted by thegladhatter

They are POWs. They DON'T NEED to be charged. When the war is over...THEN they will be released. Until then....we don't WANT them out causing more harm to our great nation. The disgrace is people whining about their sorry rear ends.

actually, to get around providing them with the rights of POW's they have been classified as "enemy combatants".

besides which many of them state that they were not actually involved at all, and nothing has been proved.

[TRD2000]

Originally Posted by Tehvisseeus

Sorry allow me to refrase.

You must have a structured chain of command. Blowing up a bus just because some guy told you to does not constitute a chain of command.

hmm guess the US military must be getting told what to do by a bunch of girls then...you know, if guys don't count.

Originally Posted by Tehvisseeus

Sorry allow me to refrase.
Bareing arms openly means that you arent concealing them. Do you really think that a terrorist is going to walk through a street with marines in it holding his AK? No probably not.

mmmm that would be a little bit like wearing luminecent camoflage uniforms... i can see the marines doing that.

Originally Posted by Tehvisseeus

Uniforms are used to identify people. The US knows who are combatants and who arent not by looking at them, but by using intelligence and common sense. If someone is shooting at them then he's probably a combatant.

mmm all the times the US military kill innocent civilians i think to myself how intelligent they are and how observant. all the time when i see guys unarmed getting shot i think, "yeah... get those combatants!"

Originally Posted by Tehvisseeus

I hate to break it to you, but the rest of the world didn't really like the US even before Bush took office. There havnt been many hearts broken which werent already before he took office. Heck Europeans weren't that happy with us when we were aiding them after WWII. I'd call that BS too but thats a matter of opinion.

mmm guess you didn't see all those people supporting the US at the olympics? World opinion of the US has dropped significantly. Countries that did support them have turned away, but hey if you want to think its got nothing to do with ignoring human rights, and international law then thats ok.

Originally Posted by Tehvisseeus

The prisoners were mostly detained in Iraq and Afghanistan because they were shooting at our soldiers or otherwise trying to cause them harm. They are nasty people. If they were detained on Us soil you're right, they would just simply get deported, but theres a difference. The military doesnt have jurisdiction over US soil.

if they were on US soil they may not be deported, they may be imprisoned or executed.....if found guilty. but they would need to be tried.

Originally Posted by Tehvisseeus

It's not a double standard. People detained over seas arent simply criminals, theyre enemy combatants as defined in the 4th geneva convention.

Then prove it. cause thats not what they say.

Originally Posted by Tehvisseeus

The US is a freedom loving country, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't piss us off when people are shooting at our boys. If the methods behind detainment save even 1 life then they are worth it.

mmmm shooting "your boys" in their country.

impressive rifle range if they stayed at home DEFENDING America.

[Tehvisseeus]

Originally Posted by TRD2000

hmm guess the US military must be getting told what to do by a bunch of girls then...you know, if guys don't count.

Are you really so unintelligent that that is how you interpreted what I said? Would it make it easier on you if I have italicized some? I didn't mean guys in general. I meant being commanded by someone who isn't of a higher rank or standing. Just because Bob is bigger doesnt mean that listening to him is following a chain of command.

Originally Posted by TRD2000

mmmm that would be a little bit like wearing luminecent camoflage uniforms... i can see the marines doing that.

No but it would be like a marine openly wearing his M-4 in the middle of a street. How do you equate not concealing a weapon to wearing luminecent uniform?

Originally Posted by TRD2000

mmm all the times the US military kill innocent civilians i think to myself how intelligent they are and how observant. all the time when i see guys unarmed getting shot i think, "yeah... get those combatants!"

I have yet heard of defenseless civilians getting shot at by the US military. I have heard of civilians getting hurt by bombs that we've dropped, but thats sadly expected.

Originally Posted by TRD2000

mmm guess you didn't see all those people supporting the US at the olympics? World opinion of the US has dropped significantly. Countries that did support them have turned away, but hey if you want to think its got nothing to do with ignoring human rights, and international law then thats ok.

The only country that I've heard of which has turned away was Spain which occured because of the Madrid bombings. Also I don't remember seeing great support for America at the olympics although who know if you can show me a link I'll believe it.

Originally Posted by TRD2000

if they were on US soil they may not be deported, they may be imprisoned or executed.....if found guilty. but they would need to be tried.

Thats exactly what I said.

Originally Posted by TRD2000

Then prove it. cause thats not what they say.

Were they found in a combat zone? Yes. In most cases they were found either in weapons caches or fighting. That alone makes them enemy combatants.

Originally Posted by TRD2000

mmmm shooting "your boys" in their impressive rifle range if they stayed at home DEFENDING America.

Ya but they didn't.

[TRD2000]

geeze where to start.

one one hand you're saying they are not POW's because they do not have a recognisable chain of command, and that the people telling them to do it don't have authority? and yet i would hazard a guess that you would also class Osama Bin Laden responsible for the WTC attack (rightly so), unfortunately this is hypocritical because if there is no structured chain of command he is just a "guy" who told them to do it. If these people are being told what to do, and that is acknowleged by the US saying they have leaders, and they are in a war, because thats what the US is calling it, then they should be treated with the dignity of Prisoners of War according to the Geoneva Convention. Despite the fact that the US doesn't seen to follow it at prisons in Iraq.

next.
"wearing" an M-4 in the middle of the street is similar to a luminecent uniform because the whole idea is to stay hidden, in a war when you are likely to get shot, you're hardly going to wave a flag and say "here i am", that's why it is similar. They aren't stupid, they aren't going to just walk up the road showing their guns to marines. nor would a lone marine walk up the middle of the street in Fallujah!

you haven't seen the footage of unarmed civilians (and media) being gunned down by the US helicopter? or the M1 firing on the hotel full of western media? That can be attributed to you clearly not opening your ears and eyes rather than the events not occuring.

so some of these people were found in areas that the US military decided to attck and make into combat zones, that does NOT make them nasty, it makes them geographically unlucky. If these people WERE trying to fight then they should be treated as prisoners of war, and if they say they weren't then they should be given a fair trial, in accordance with human rights. Being there does not make you a combatant...that is a stupid accusation.

exactly. The US was not acting to defend itself. the US invaded someones country, and killed their civilians, but those people are evil for shooting back?

additionally, the chain of command many of these people fell under had been in existance for years, and had previously been supported by and funded by the US. These people had been fighting Russia years before with US backing, the US recognised the structure in their command then, conveniently they choose not to now.

[Tehvisseeus]

I consider Osama responsible for the WTC attacks, however I don't consider him to be their leader. Osama is a member of a terrorist organization that lets the richest or more powerful person reign on high. This is not unlike a lot of different groups or countrys, however because there is such a lack of structure, there is no definite chain of command.

You're absolutely right, however soldiers who fight like that are considered gorillas which, once again, fall under the 4th geneva convention.

No I havnt seen any of the footage nor have I been able to find links to stories about it. Could you please post a link.

for your fourth point, read the 4th geneva convention in detail and if you still don't understand it come back with any questions you have and I'd be happy to answer.

At the time after the Taliban fell, it actually did fall. All of the leaders had either been killed, or lost contact with each other. It lost all appearances of being structured from the day the US took it out. Just because something once had a structure doesn't mean it still did when these prisoners were captured, and since there is no central comand over them now, there is no structure.

[otter7467]

TRD2000
Have you ever been in the military?

[Rbraczyk]

the correct way to write is is Guerilla's. Remeber we are not fighting big black hairy terrorists.

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by TRD2000

besides which many of them state that they were not actually involved at all, and nothing has been proved.

How many prisoners in our own penal system claim they are innocent?

These nutsacks were in a warzone carrying out a war. That is enough to land their tired rumps in GITMO. They are in actuality probably better off there than they were prior to their incarceration. Remember the state John Walker Lindt was in when he was busted? He was a mess.

[indyram]

Well if the liberals want to bring all the guest of Gitmo to the US let them. Do the trial in Texas though, they already have an express lane for the death penalty.

[aloharocky]

Short rope, tall tree is all that Texas needs to take care of the Gitmo problem.

[Tehvisseeus]

Originally Posted by Rbraczyk

the correct way to write is is Guerilla's. Remeber we are not fighting big black hairy terrorists.

Hehe ya you're right man I must have become illiterate lately.

[Rbraczyk]

Originally Posted by aloharocky

Short rope, tall tree is all that Texas needs to take care of the Gitmo problem.

Can we send you there too? Because you certainly don't contribute anything to this forums.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by Rbraczyk

Can we send you there too? Because you certainly don't contribute anything to this forums.

So says one of our more worthless members.