Fahrenheit 9/11

[Flatrater]

http://movies.zertinet.com/2004/911.htm

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/click/...=1&rid=1281788

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/qu...haelmoore.html

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by DGB454

So if you were president.(Yes,I'm having a hard time saying that with a straight face) You would bother to deny or even acknowledge Moore?
You wouldn't see that as a mistake? That's like giving credibility to what he says.

It would be a mistake for GWB to acknowledge Moore or the movie. There are more important topics for his time.
GWB arguing with Moore in the media would be a lost cause; would lend credibility to the movie and give lots of sound bites to be used out of context, (although Bush has already supplied a wealth of those!)

[tenguzero]

Naki under the 3 years of Bush my year pay has gone up 8K US dollars, I pay less taxes now then under Clinton. Last year The government sent me a check for 1200 US dollars as a tax credit. Our local newspaper is full of job openings. SO I can say my situation has improved under Bush. Bush will always be remembered for Iraq but he did give me more of my money back.

And this is how the system has worked well. But the other side of it, the side they aren't telling, is the fact that, while there are probably "new" jobs being created, they aren't jobs that are of use to anyone save for those already established. An Associate's degree, Technical Schooling, and an A+ certification, and I'm STILL staring down the barrel at having to go back to waitering or retail at 22 years old. I'm too old to be ringing register with 16 y/o's anymore! All I see in the future for me, is a continued cycle of job rejection (because I don't have the "experience," but someone over in India apparently does,) rising tuition costs, rising interest rates on my loan payments, less incentive for companies to offer me any benefits (especially at my age and employment standing) but no more higher a pay than I was making in High School. It's cool that Bush has done well by you, but he's sure bent me over.

[Flatrater]

Naki if I linked a FOx news site would you believe it or would you say its a lie? Let me know so I can post it for you!

[driftu]

he is the president. he shouldn't worry about his PR. he should worry about putting to rest any confusion over his actions.

[DGB454]

Well I guess I don't have to say any more teranaki.
Everyone else has said it just fine for me. No need to repeat it.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

And this is how the system has worked well. But the other side of it, the side they aren't telling, is the fact that, while there are probably "new" jobs being created, they aren't jobs that are of use to anyone save for those already established.An Associate's degree, Technical Schooling, and an A+ certification, and I'm STILL staring down the barrel at having to go back to waitering or retail at 22 years old. I'm too old to be ringing register with 16 y/o's anymore! All I see in the future for me, is a continued cycle of job rejection (because I don't have the "experience,".

That's the same thing I went through when starting out. You start from the bottom and work your way up. I started out washing dishes until I was able to find a job in a small factory. Now I'm a design engineer and regional Mgr. in that industry. No one will put you in upper or middle management unless you have a proven track record.

but someone over in India apparently does,) rising tuition costs, rising interest rates on my loan payments, less incentive for companies to offer me any benefits (especially at my age and employment standing) but no more higher a pay than I was making in High School. It's cool that Bush has done well by you, but he's sure bent me over.

I am disgusted about the job losses to other countries also. It's been going on for more years than Bush has been in office. Just ask Moore. (Roger and Me) The US or any other country that has a higher standard of living can't compete with places like India or Mexico when it comes to cheap labor. Kerry promises to bring more manufacturing jobs back to the US. The only way that will happen would be to 1) Pay the US workers less to do those jobs or 2) Give large govt. incentives to keep them here and keep the pay the same which means higher taxes on everyone to pay for the huge govt. payouts. or 3) Raise import taxes on overseas shipments which the rest of the world not tolerate(and for good reason). There may be other ways but I don't see any. What else does Kerry propose? Raise the minimum wage. Yeah, that will help bring jobs back.

The point is that sending jobs overseas is going to happen whether we like it or not until the pay everywhere else equals ours. Whether that means ours will lower or theirs will raise is yet to be seen. Corporations are there to make money. Not jobs.

Good luck in your search. I do seriously hope you find something you enjoy and pays well. Just be prepaired to work your way up from the bottom if necessary.

[tenguzero]

Thanks man. It's definately not easy. Actually, I've always thought that there should be some sort of initiative to help get graduates into (in some way) the fields they want to pursue (or as close to what they want as possible.) I'm for the minimum wage increase, but I think a better idea would be to focus on helping people trying to get their foot in the door, actually get it there. If the govt. could somehow mandate placement assistance programs, perhaps with some sort of incentive to employers, then I think they've got the makings of a good method of stimulus right there. And BOTH sides win, the govt. AND the employee. Perhaps this belongs in the Kerry/min. wage thread

It's interesting how there is so much written about "adolescent crisis," then it sort of jumps up to marriage and family concerns. But there's a GIGANTIC gap right in betweeen, namely the Twenties, where a person faces most of the hardest challenges in their life -- setting out on a solid path to allow them the ability to move to the next step. If the government would help with that, they would have more support (both financially and politically) from this huge Gen-Y group.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

Thanks man. It's definately not easy. Actually, I've always thought that there should be some sort of initiative to help get graduates into (in some way) the fields they want to pursue (or as close to what they want as possible.) I'm for the minimum wage increase, but I think a better idea would be to focus on helping people trying to get their foot in the door, actually get it there. If the govt. could somehow mandate placement assistance programs, perhaps with some sort of incentive to employers, then I think they've got the makings of a good method of stimulus right there. And BOTH sides win, the govt. AND the employee. Perhaps this belongs in the Kerry/min. wage thread

It's interesting how there is so much written about "adolescent crisis," then it sort of jumps up to marriage and family concerns. But there's a GIGANTIC gap right in betweeen, namely the Twenties, where a person faces most of the hardest challenges in their life -- setting out on a solid path to allow them the ability to move to the next step. If the government would help with that, they would have more support (both financially and politically) from this huge Gen-Y group.

I'm sorry did I read this right you want the government to find you a job?

First you want someone else to find you a job next you will want them to pay your bills do your work and so on. Do it the old fashioned way walk the pavement, knock on doors, fill out those applications. Dress right for the interview, remove the earrings. Sell yourself to the employer sitting in front of you. Its nobody's job but your own to find a job. When I went to college I applied and got accpeted at a school that offered placement assisstance not guaranteed placement. I used the service once but I have lifetime placement thru the college.

I know I can quit my job today and have a new job tommorrow making the same or more money. Its not hard but I sell myself 100% everytime. I only apply at one job the job I want and I get it everytime.

One problem I see with alot of the colege kids nowadays is that they want a job making top dollar with no experience. It takes time to climb the ladder. If you set your sights up to high no smart employer will hire you and pay you want you want. You have to earn the money, its not given to you just because you went to college.

If you can't find a job in your chosen profession than maybe you chose the wrong profession.

[tenguzero]

Are you sure you're reading the posts, and not just blindly responding? If not I suggest you do. NO WHERE did I say I wanted the govt. to FIND me a job. I SAID it would be nice for them to perhaps institute some sort of aid program, to HELP new graduates in finding positions CLOSE to what they're looking for. Again, NO WHERE did I say I would expect to be assisted in finding an immediate, top dollar position right away. But I would at least HOPE that it would be a position I could actually live off of. Perhaps by offering incentives to employers for hiring graduates -- who often have little or no experience -- to help bring about a more productive generation. I don't doubt you could "get the job you want" everytime. But could you have gotten that same job if you had no experience in the field? Take a look through the job postings right now: the majority of them want EXPERIENCE. I know that often times employers post sort of a "wish list" of what they want in an employee, but with the job market the way it is right now, they don't have to settle -- it's likely they will have no problem finding someone with what they want. And don't think for a second that I don't make my damndest attempt at presenting and selling myself -- if I can even LAND the interview (all I am until they meet me, is a resume and cover letter.) I pay all my bills, one way or another, and I work the extra hours when I need to. You sir, make far too many false presumptions.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

I SAID it would be nice for them to perhaps institute some sort of aid program, to HELP new graduates in finding positions CLOSE to what they're looking for.

Perhaps by offering incentives to employers for hiring graduates -- who often have little or no experience -- to help bring about a more productive generation.

I don't doubt you could "get the job you want" everytime. But could you have gotten that same job if you had no experience in the field?

Ok I did read it right you want an agency to "help" you find a job. Then you want that agency to give your employer money for hiring you.

Ok The day I graduated college I stepped off the steps and went to work the next day in a defense contractor, worked there 3 years. Next I filled out one job app to USAIR as a mechanic. Now getting a job with the major airlines is tough. I got the job on my first try. Did that with 2 more airlines. I got tired of moving all the time so one day I walked into a car dealer knowing nothing about cars. Two days later I started working there. The last job was out of my area on knowledge yet I got the job no problems. Right now I have a dealer willing to drive a truck pick me and my family up just to work for him. I have several dealers asking for me to work for them. It's more atitude than anything else. I have my employer by the balls and I let them know they can't live without me.

Now I am also sure that in time you will find a job, starting out is tough to do but keep plugging away and it will happen.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

Credible denial will only add to the fire making it bigger than it should be. Saying nothing will lessen the impact of Moore's lies. If Bush made a statement Moore would be sitting there saying "See I told you so, it must be true"

And what of the voting public?If Bush issues a denial, Are you saying that they do they not trust him enough to accept it at face value?

Bush can't argue with the core facts of the film,or he would.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by taranaki

And what of the voting public?If Bush issues a denial, Are you saying that they do they not trust him enough to accept it at face value?

Bush can't argue with the core facts of the film,or he would.

I'm sorry Naki I don't have that kind of faith to trust the voting public to decide. Some of our voters only vote for the peoples names the reconginze and not on the issues. Some people just aren't smart enough.

BTW I found a article on Fox news the one you say sucks and is biased and that they are not credible. So if that is the case this story can't be credible.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122680,00.html

[Murco]

Originally Posted by taranaki

Bush can't argue with the core facts of the film,or he would.

Saw the movie last night, and went with an affirmed Bush-hating liberal just for some perspective...
The film seems to be helping Bush!
It is SO over-the-top, So personal an attack, SO far left-of-center even liberals are coming out of the theatre questioning the man's [Moore] sanity!
The "core facts" are taken as gospel from other far-left lunatics and his film had little credibility. Americans are never swayed by extremists from either side, and internal anger never proved a point.
The only people who seem to embrace this film are in Beijing - Having the first US film approved by the communist leaders of China must be a real validation of Moore's work.

[tenguzero]

I just came back from seeing the movie 1/2 hour ago. It most definately focuses almost squarely on Bush, but there are enough inclusions (in respect to Bush's advisors) so as to keep me from giving a full thumbs-up at any hint of 100% pure anti-Bush. Obviously I feel there is a lot of blame to be focused on Bush (as he IS the representative for the administration) but that there is just as much due to his cabinet as well. Holding the anti-war views that I do, this film probably rang better with someone like myself. Now, I KNOW that Moore has his own agenda in mind (as does anyone trying to get a point across in league with their own views,) but I also know that, much like his other films, the footage does not lie. Sure, there are parts of it edited, but there is just some things in these movies you can't fake. I don't care how much slow motion filming, or sappy soundtrack you put to it, you just have to see beyond that to (for instance) the LOOK that Bush has when he's informed of the attacks in progress. Or the anguish on the part of the mother (and all the families who've lost someone.) I guess the thing that gets to me, is not so much what is IN the movie, but what the catalyst is BEHIND it. The existence of millions upon millions of people in this country (and around the world) who do NOT support the war effort in the Middle East doesn't lie. The fact that they DON'T show us (on television) the footage of raids on Iraqi homes, and large amounts of candid, off-the-cuff interviews with the men and women serving over there. Why don't they show us all these things? Why must I go online to see videos of the victims plummeting from the towers, or candid interviews with a broad spectrum of people in the middle of all the fighting, or more interviews with the people unsatisfied with the situation (because there is obviously a lot of them.) There is a LOT that the American people are kept in the dark about. Sure there may be just as many Bush-Corporation-BinLaden ties that are pure conspiracy theories, as there is truth, but there are just as many conpiracies on the far right as there are the far left (listen to conservative talk radio for instance -- you'll find more than a few.) All in all, I enjoyed the movie. I took it with a grain of salt just as I do all of Moore's other media. But there is just too many elements of unnecessary fear (amongst other things) being foistered upon the American people, that I cannot ignore the existence of such things. And I KNOW I'm not alone in this opinion.