Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by drzoidberg

You may want to use the ground cable that came with your van, if it's substantially different. Those flat, woven cables can handle a lot more transient current than a copper wire sometimes.

Well, the ground cable I put in is like a regular stranded copper ground cable you'd find in other cars. Why would that be a problem? I replaced the flat strap kind that was there because I was having problems with complete lack of power to the van at all in wet conditions and when I'd dry, blow on or wiggle the old flat ground strap it would remedy it (or so I thought back then). Ever since I replaced it I haven't had that problem, though I still seem to have more problems in humidity or rain with misfiring randomly.

I do believe my multimeter does milliOhms. Its a digital meter from radio shack.

I was getting zero ohms doing those "ground to ground" voltage measurements, but I never measured from the metal of the chassis where the ground point is under the battery. I think thats something to check out. I'll try that too, all the other stuff I said and you said and Selectron said whenever I get to work on this next (hopefully soon).

[searcherrr]

Selectron or whoever - Should the battery + voltage observed at the data link connector via a scan computer or device match that of the voltage observed while voltage metering the voltage at the battery or alternator?

I ask because I just realized that with the scan tool hooked up to my computer, the voltage I observed on the computer was in the lower 12's (with no load on) and the voltage I observed at the battery/alternator was 13 to 14...mostly in the low to mid 14's, but with a few blips to 13 every great once and a while.

G101 - I don't think I mentioned this when I was talking about Ground 101 a few posts back, but if I am right about this being the culprit circuit it is listed as the "CASE GROUND" for the PCM. It would seem to me this would be a very important ground for the PCM and that if it wasn't right it'd screw up everything. All of those components I mentioned regarding G101 are on that same ground circuit.

[drzoidberg]

According to the OBDII spec, pin 16 on the OBD connector is supposed to be battery voltage. I would measure that with respect to pin 4 (4=chassis ground, 5=signal ground, not necessarily the same) on the OBD connector with the same meter (i.e. not the scan tool). The scan tool may not be accurate when measuring battery voltage.

[searcherrr]

Have not done any further said testing yet.

Just went outside to start the van and let it run for 5-10 minutes to keep the battery good.

What are the chances I spat out 1/8 a tank of gas in only 1 mile of 25 mph travel from the gas station to the house?

I noticed that the fuel gauge is down 1/8 of a tank from full. The last thing I did with the van, before letting it just sit in the driveway, was fill the tank beyond full, reset the odometer and drove it home. The fuel pump and fuel sender are brand new OEM.

Thinking of tackling this insane problem, that started this thread to begin with, from an easier perspective I went looking at the troubleshooting steps to follow for the fuel gauge showing the wrong level.

As it turns out the last Pinpoint Test listed says to check circuit 57 (BK/W). Circuit 57 is what I've been referring to in the last few posts as G101 ground under the battery, although I would think that all chassis grounds tie into each other..... but I do have several components that have gone out that documentation claims are grounded to G101 - Circuit 57.

Just saying that seeing this Pinpoint test mention to check that circuit supports my narrowing down of G101/Circuit 57 being the final culprit.

I ignored the rest of the Pinpoint tests listed for the fuel gauge, cause I know so much of my van is new. I guess the wrong fuel reading could be an additional localized issue with the fuel gauge/instrument panel connections, but at this point with all those other components having failed out of no where I think I'll see what the status of Circuit 57 is before doing anything else. I doubt the fuel gauge or sender is broken. I think whatever "ground problem" has been in the system all along has finally gotten to its worst.

I am going on a trip in my 3000GT tomorrow and will be gone for a few days. I won't be troubleshooting the van till I get back in a week or so. To all my followers out there..... lol.... I am still persisting to a fix. After having done so, I'll be damn near an automotive expert !!!! lol

[searcherrr]

What about a bad/dirty chassis?

When I had them do the engine, now back in late 2007 - early 2008, I had them replace this too:
Lower/Upper (8 qty) crossmember (subframe to body) bushings (known trouble spot in 95-96 years)

Could those bushing replacements have broken continuity throughout the chassis causing a bad ground situation?

How otherwise would a bad/dirty chassis happen?

Status: I have been working on a big at-home project and have not had the time to do the tests I have been saying I wanted to do. So far the van has been sitting over at the engine installer's shop for 2 weeks while I've been busy with other things. I talked to a tech just a couple days ago over there and he says he's good with electrical, so we'll see just how good he is.

The thing that sucks about this is I was going to use the van to "move" because I'm about to move 330 miles away. I didn't expect the van to be fixed before I had to move, so I'm leaving it here and will return for it and my cargo trailer, that I planned on taking up with the van, sometime later.

So far though, it's saved me a lot of time to just let the shop work on it. I was gonna take it back from them if they didn't complete anything after a certain point, but now I think I'm gonna just have to leave it with them.... and hope they admit its their fault.

[wiswind]

I don't think that the subframe to body bushings would cause a isolation problem.
Reason, that is why they have multiple ground wires that connect to various parts of the body, motor block, and such.
I remember that you did a through check of the various ground wires for continuity a while back.

Sadly, just sitting in a humid climate is really hard on a vehicle, at least where there are big temperature swings.
I remember this spring, when it warmed up and was humid.....my motor was soaking wet with condensation.
I started seeing rust develop in just a couple weeks of it sitting without being used at all.

It would be really nice to get that thing going again, after all the time, and money, and stress that you have invested in it.

[searcherrr]

Hello all. Where's he been? Is the van running? What's he doing?

First to respond to Wiswind. From my past experience with this van, even before the original engine, removing any 1 single ground made a difference for the worse. I remember one time the ground from the alternator to the body was "questionable" as I thought moisture from humidity or rain was getting between it and the body and all electric was not available, dome lights, any lights, ignition, nothing... I played with that ground for a little while, trying to dry it off, and finally I wasn't stuck at Wal-Mart anymore.

TODAY - On 9/20/2010 I dropped the van off again, and on 11/12/2010, I picked up the van from the -engine installer- shop yet again, for the last time. Its the last time because I've had enough and the last time because I've moved 330 miles away. I thought about suing them, but I know it would be a sad case to follow through with. I know they tried to fix it, but I very much question just how hard they tried. For me to spot obvious electrical problems (IE: Such as the gas gauge not reporting right after a full fillup and then a few engine on/off's later it reports correctly) and them to say, "Seems to run fine for an old van. Nothing wrong that I can see."

Yet again, they had the van for several weeks and this bs what I'm told. I have enough documentation to sue them, but being 330 miles away and just due to overall exhaustion of dealing with the installer shop I just don't want to fool with them anymore. The owner even drove the van around for 2 weeks as is own primary vehicle and claims that it drove fine and only did something to him once where it seemed like it was a 'misfire'.

I have come to the self drawn conclusion that these "near-stall" attempts I'm seeing are misfire's caused by faults/shorts in the electrical system and more than likely in the ground circuit. During the time the van was at the shop this LAST TIME, the Owner said the only thing they did was move a ground. Well, that wasn't entirely accurate. I will explain later.

When I drove the van over there to drop it off, it drove fine. Owner of the shop claims it drove fine for 2 weeks of his own personal use and during testing all other weeks at the shop. When I picked up the van, it was very clear to see that the near-stall problem was still there at idle. Highway driving was the next test and it seemed to do well on the road I have to admit, but having dropped it off with a fuel gauge reporting wrong I was curious to see what type of interstate mileage I was gonna get. Well, enter a 330 mile journey towing about 1500 lbs.

Back in 2007 when my original engine blew, I was towing 3000lbs (almost) and I'd towed it 1 other time over several hundred miles. In this condition I was getting about 200 miles per tank of gas. Towing this time on the move 330 miles 11/12/2010, it seemed like I wasn't getting but about 150 miles per tank.... but I did not know if I could trust the gas gauge either. It seemed to indicate I was lower than I actually was.

Once I got to my new home, I have been driving the van around a lot more than my car to test it out as much as possible. Funny enough the mileage seems like it is back to its old self (original engine mileage) at around 400 interstate miles per tank. I know others claim better mileage than that, but on the original engine I have never seen better than about 410 miles per tank. I think that is roughly 18 - 19 mpg. I had hopes with a better exhaust, better ignition coils and all the new stuff that I'd eek out a better mpg percentage, but I haven't.... but also here's the rub. THE ELECTRICAL GREMLINS ARE STILL THERE.

When I finally got enough patience to pop the hood and look at what "ground had been moved" by the shop, I see no ground moved anywhere. What I did see was the ground wire that mounts to the rear head was tampered with and what I had done to fix it a long while back (in that shop's own parking lot mind you) had been reversed. In other words they put the ground wire mount back on the head, with the black painted mounting bracket underneath the ground wire mount... thus effectively putting me back into a "bad ground" situation there at the head again... because this black bracket that seems to hold up stuff in that area of the engine bay doesn't conduct well and just gets in the way of the ground wire mounting on with the lil loop thingy for the bolt to slide through.

So, since I have been back, odd electrical things have been happening, BUT for whatever strange reason the GAS MPG has been tolerable. Near-stall still exists though at idle. Some of the electrical things that have been randomly occurring are: DOOR CHIME comes on slow and then fast until I've passed 20 mph and then it turns off, Interior cabin lighting stays on and turns itself on and off at random intervals along with the door chime, dashboard "door open" light stays on during all that, interior cabin lighting remains ON after shutting the doors and engine is OFF (have checked the doors numerous times, they are fine), then after a while the lights go off, then again (engine still off) the lights come back on and off - strobing over long periods of time if you will, I have noticed too .... or maybe its just slow to respond... that the changing of the air vents when using the a/c switches to redirect air to defrost or floor or body level seems to change late or really slowly sometimes. Oh and there is the occasional electric door locks and electric windows will not function too and there's nothing wrong with the buttons. They just decide when to work or not.

I was playing with the ignition area (for the key) when the door chime stuff was happening and I couldn't figure out if I was doing anything or not, but I thought it seemed like when I moved the key in the ignition in certain ways that it would either change the door chime from fast to slow or vice versa and/or briefly it would stop it, though this could've also been due to driving RPMs or Speed at the time too.... in any case the ignition is definitely LOOSE, but still functional.... though I can pull the key out of the ignition when the van is in ON ENGINE RUNNING MODE and then turn the ignition OFF without the KEY in it, but I cannot start it without the key (at least today), but I think I have been able to do that in the past. Does this link to an ungrounded electrical issue too? Does the KEY itself ground something in the ignition in the steering column? or are there other things in there that ground together when its started?

When the door chime and interior lighting stuff was happening, I decided to look into the fuses so I could pull the right one and kill the interior lighting for overnight purposes so I could mess with all that crap later. I pulled the big 60amp fuse #29 in the engine bay and left it overnight or maybe 2 days. Then I went and put it back in again and I'll be damned... none of that electrical lighting and chiming mayhem happened at all since. Strangely enough to me, when I was idling and driving (daylight only since #29 disables the blinkers outside too) without #29 plugged into the fuse box in the engine bay, the van seemed to run smoother and the "near-stall" condition was barely noticeable. After putting it back in again, the "near-stall" issue returned back to its very noticeable self.... as I said I think above, what I'm calling a misfire due to electrical disturbances.

To close this long post, I still remain that I will still do the electrical testing I was advised of by Selectron and drzoidberg and Wiswind in the last few pages of this thread. I just don't know when I will get to them. My idea as of now is to isolate the obvious wiring problem, and likely replace the wire that grounds to the head because I think that wire is toast from having roasted so long on the EGR pipe. I think this erratic electrical behavior I'm seeing could be due to that wire "jiggling" with the engine here and there. I also want to create a ground wire "network" like the performance cars do and make sure the van chassis itself is carrying the ground circuit continuously all the way around the vehicle. I may even replace the entire engine wiring harness if I can find one in a junk yard somewhere, and then ohm it out when it gets to me before putting it in such to hopefully make sure I'm not installing more problems than I have.

Well, I don't know when I will do all this, cause right now aside from the near-stall at idle, the MPG is ok and the electrical gremlins have subsided. I've decided till I get to really work on this again that I will just keep pulling fuse #29 overnight or whenever if I have problems and then just put it back in when I wanna drive it. lol ...... what a wacky ass van.

[wiswind]

OK.....the chime under 20mph and interior lights staying on is a very common Windstar issue.
I am not at all suprised to hear of it after the vehicle has been sitting.
The almost certain cause of it is one of the door closed sensor switches.
Which one is the $$$ question.
For the front doors, the sensor switch is inside the door at the latch......not the old pin switch at the hinge area they used to do.
I have a picture posted that shows the switch.
Any one of the switches.......front doors, sliding side door(s), or one of the 2 sensors for the rear hatch can cause this problem.
In short, the van "thinks" one of the doors is not closed......dirty switch contacts.
There is no switch to turn off the interior lights........that was something I looked for and asked the sales person about when I first looked at the van.
HOWEVER, there is a timer that shuts the interior lights OFF after about 45 minutes......although that timer starts again if you open a door.

Door locks.......check the springy sliding door contacts and the smooth contact plates on the sliding door(s).

Ignition switch.....my '96 was worn and I had to wiggle the key spot (key did not need to be in the ignition) to make the chime stop (this is different from the door open chime).
I bought a new ignition switch, but never got around to installing it.
But then.....all those cylces over the years.......
I had replaced the multifunction switch because the right turn signal was starting to buzz and the headlight switch because it was getting warm....and even intermittent.
Just normal stuff for keeping an older vehicle.

It IS good to hear that you are getting acceptable fuel economy.
I would go around 300 miles on a tank of fuel......with the 20 gallon tank.
There was a optional 25 gallon tank, which I think was standard on the LX version.
The best I would get out of mine was 22mpg on the freeway, taking it very easy.
I would not worry at all about 18mpg and above.
My 2003 Sienna gets me about 24mpg as a best on freeway, taking it easy fuel economy.
Certainly not a gain worth replacing a vehicle for that reason only.....2mpg is nice but not huge.

Of course, I would want to solve the anoying door open switch issue, but otherwise, it sounds like all is well.

[searcherrr]

Mine is a 95 GL with the 25 gallon tank. So actually, with that math I'm getting about 16 mpg. Ooopsy there. I still think I should be able to get an easy 20mpg if I can ever fix the ground problems.

I figured you or someone else would say its the door lock (or door shut) sensors cause I'd read that before I think somewhere on this forum, but my intuition tells me its still an electrical ground fault due to the other intermittent electrical issues I'm having and since they reversed what I'd done to "make the head ground" better. IE: Door locks not functioning sometimes, windows not functioning sometimes, improper fuel gauge reporting + the idle issues and irregular voltage observed at battery.

The crappy thing about this is that I simply cannot, no matter how much I'd love to, throw out the ideas you are telling me either.... because in reality the parts of the van I haven't touched are "aged" and as you say will do what old vehicles do. I still hinge on the idea of the bad ground and if I ever manage to fix it and erase the bad idle, I would bet money at the same time the other electrical issues would just vanish until some later date when the components themselves, that I haven't touched, start to really show their age.

Anyway, for now its running about the same mpg as the original engine. I still can't believe everyone else really gets over 20mpg on their Winnies. I guess even despite the 300 - 400 lbs of added weight on later year models past 1998 that 50 more HP engine must really help out with the mpg savings over the 95 year?

[olopezm]

I'm sorry to be unable to provide any advice but if you need any electrical diagram don't hesitate to ask, that's all I can do on this type of problem.

Best regards,

Oscar.

[danielsatur]

I know the Massive Air Flow (MAF) sensor was cleaned, but did you ever replace it?

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by danielsatur

I know the Massive Air Flow (MAF) sensor was cleaned, but did you ever replace it?

The original was replaced with a used OEM one off Ebay. I cleaned it before I replaced it. The original one's element, where I see the air pass through, had actually "popped" in half at the metal wire that holds it in place. This is why I still feel like there is some electrical short etc... It has not ever had a "reman" or "new" MAF put back in. I think, from what I've seen on computer scans, that its running right. It seems to move up and down with the g/s (measurement) as it should.

What is very clear to me though is that while I have the computer scanner plugged in, if I activate various switches in the cabin (headlights, cruise control, actuating the accelerator pedal, etc.. anything a/c etc..) that the computer software resets in error. I'm no engineer, and probably should've been, but wouldn't this indicate an electrical issue? (Note: I trust my computer and interface hardware is all working fine when I'm connected to the van's OBD connector)

[searcherrr]

Hi everyone. Just wanted to say that she's still running strong, still "attempting" to stall, but still going. I just keep the a/c on most of the time when I run it, because it hiccups (shutters and attempts to stall) less when the a/c is on.

I did mean to post something interesting a while back and never got around to it. I am still going with the problem being that the reference voltage is being disturbed by two separate ground points. I believe the break in continuity is happening somewhere in the engine block itself or possibly due to some rust corrosion on the subframe on the back passenger rear side.

Funny thing is, I properly burped the coolant a few months ago. I found that I was 3/4 of a gallon LOW on coolant and that this was likely this way from a couple years ago when all this started. The result of the burping was a drop in temp from the "M" to the "A" on the temp gauge... a full letter width downward and the van seemed (for a while) to run much better without the "attempting" to stall thing happening 95% of the time. Later on this "near stall" came back again more prominent.

I was wondering, since I filled the coolant full, could this have provided an electrical ground path that was/is more solid? Could've been mere coincidence, but I found it odd this issue went away for a little bit after I filled it up as much as I could with the coolant.

Hello to all my fans! lol - Hope you are all doing well.