Red Bull Causing Problems

[jano11]

Originally Posted by klutz_100

Grundski, Seb and Ioan - IMHO you are so far off the reservation.

Why? Because I say that what they are doing is unethical? I don't think that I'm wrong saying that.

Originally Posted by klutz_100

Big international brands require management in order to maintain their value. Dipsh*t free advertising through decal sheets doesn't mean squat in that perspective.

And how exactly does using a decal, on a car that already ran with their logo all over it, does devalue their brand?!

Steven, I'm ready to agree with you if you can make a point on how is that modelers devalue a brand by using it to recreate reality at a smaller scale.

[taliesen]

Originally Posted by grundski

Klutz, I have contacted companies equally as big as Red Bull and DHL requesting logo's to make decals. You know what the response was? One guess my friend...They sent me VECTOR art of their logo. You can get UPS's logo full vector art on their website. So all you who keep chiming in about identity protection and not about money wake up.

Out of curiousity, did you do this in order to manufacture and sell decal sheets? Not knowing the conversation, I'd have to guess that if they knew you were going to produce and sell decal sheets to make a profit for yourself, their response would be different.

[LAPO]

I think they'd better spend much time in producing good drinks than in boring us all...
The fact that most economy is based on the marketing and not on the market is giving its results in these days. All over the world.

[Eric Cole]

Just a thought but ever wonder if it's possible that companies like Revell, Scalectrix, Carrera, Minichamps... etc, who may have legitimately paid a fee for the right to use the logo have become upset with those that compete against them, without the rights to do so, in the same line of business and filed a complaint with Redbu!! ?

I know if I owned a company who paid a fee for the privelage to use a logo for the purpose of earning revenue and making a profit and someone who did not pay a fee or have permission but illegally chose to "use" the logo anyway and took business/sales away from me I would file a complaint and demand that Redbu!! put a stop to it. Redbu!! could be sued by the companies that paid a legitimate fee if they don't put a stop to to those who didn't.

[klutz_100]

Originally Posted by mach1_2003

Just a thought but ever wonder if it's possible that companies like Revell, Scalectrix, Carrera, Minichamps... etc, who may have legitimately paid a fee for the right to use the logo have become upset with those that compete against them, without the rights to do so, in the same line of business and filed a complaint with Redbu!! ?

I know if I owned a company who paid a fee for the privelage to use a logo for the purpose of earning revenue and making a profit and someone who did not pay a fee or have permission but illegally chose to "use" the logo anyway and took business/sales away from me I would file a complaint and demand that Redbu!! put a stop to it. Redbu!! could be sued by the companies that paid a legitimate fee if they don't put a stop to to those who didn't.

EXCELLENT point. That is also a very plausible reason.
I ran a bit close to the wind once with an ad campaign loosely connected to Star Wars and Pepsi, who were an official sponsor product for the movie set Lucas Films on me. They were protecting their investment just in the way you mention Eric.

[Mikezibit]

I don´t think, mach1-2003´s opinion is right. Three weeks ago I was at the Nürburgring and at a modelshop near Döttinger Höhe I saw Red Bull models in 1:18 (Autoart BMW M3 GTR, Aston Marin DBR9, GT3R) and a Citroen C4 from Norev.

The C4, DBR9 and M3GTR are newer models with an additional sticker on the box showing that these items are licenced by Red Bull. This licence sticker came probably later to the box, because on older boxes I just could see stickers like „Licenced by Porsche“ (GT3R) etc.

You also find older Red Bull Minichamps F1 models without the „Licenced by Red Bull“ sticker and you won´t find this sticker (or a similar hint) for licencing f.e. on Revell´s BMW 320 Red Bull Racing kit or the Tamiya motorbike-kit.

Another Red Bull model I found at that model shop was the 1:87 VW Touareg by Schuco, on the box just „Licenced by VW“, the same with lots of 1:43 models, you just find stickers with „Licenced by ….(car company)“, no one „Licenced by Red Bull“



Mikezibit

[Eric Cole]

Well, if I had ever given my opinion you have every right to disagree with it. I never said "In my opinion this is what's happening". I only brought it up as a point to ponder.

However, your point regarding new boxes having the license and old boxes not having it could possibly add more strength to my point. Maybe when Redbull was not making an issue out of licensing the box did not have the statement. Now that Redbull is making an issue out of it the box does have the "Licensed by Redbull" statement.

My point is this, as an example: Lets imagine that I owned Autoart (which I do not) and I paid a significant amount of money to have the "rights" to use the Redbull name and logo. I do this because I want to produce a Redbull F1 diecast replica and sell it to everyone that would like to buy a Redbull F1 diecast replica (diecast model). Then lets imagine that you own a company that produces resin cast F1 models and you decide to produce a Redbull version of an F1 car and sell it to everyone that wants to buy one. Now, lets imagine that you are selling the resin model for $100 but I have to sell my diecast for $200 because I have to recover the large fee that I paid to get the right to use the Redbull name and logo, yet, you can under sell me because you didn't pay for the rights and you have no major investment to recover. I lose business and I lose money on my investment because you choose to do something illegal.

I (the imaginary owner of Autoart) would be very pissed at you for causing me to lose money. Since I don't own Redbull I can't come after your company. But because I have an agreement with Redbull I can go after them for allowing you to use their logo without the rights to do so. I would force them to go after you and require you to pay the fee I paid or I would force them to make you stop using the name and logo so I get my market edge back, the market edge I paid for. If they didn't force your company and other comapnies like yours to stop I would sue them to get my money back. If this happens what do you think Redbull is going to do?

That is the point I was making. It's not my opinion that I think it's happeneing it's just a possibility, a thought. My thoughts could be wrong (and usually are ) just like your thoughts could be wrong unless you work for Redbull and have the facts.

The only "opinion" I have is that I think it sucks that the larger companies (think tires without sidewall lettering, etc...) charge such outrageous fees that make it impossible for the smaller companies to obtain the rights to use the name and logo for something so harmless as modeling. I have no opinion about what I think is really going on. I don't work for any company involved nor do I know anybody that works for any company involved therefore I have no clue what the real issue is.... I only have thoughts about the many possibilities that it could be. I chose to post about this possibility because many of the others had already been posted.

[Mikezibit]

I understand, what you want to express. But for a little aftermarket-company it isn´t profitable and worth the effort to get a licence for maybe 100 decals. Lets say, the company gets 5% licence fees, that are perhaps 50 Euro in this case.


Bigger kit or model producer like Autoart or Minichamps have an immense output, and for the sponsors it makes sense ot demand licence fees, but not all companies make that. Some tire producing companies see it as a free promotion, when their logos stick on modelcars.


If it is possible to make so much money with licence fees from aftermarket companies, why didn´t RB started this until now? – This section of the market isn´t new, in the last 20 years nearly nobody was interested in what the aftermarket produced ?


And the companies I´m thinking about have a bigger value than RB








Mikezibit

[drunken monkey]

you are completely missing the point:
that it also stands to reason that third part is insisting that whatever company enforce the protection of it's own branding.

[jano11]

Originally Posted by mach1_2003

Well, if I had ever given my opinion you have every right to disagree with it. I never said "In my opinion this is what's happening". I only brought it up as a point to ponder.

However, your point regarding new boxes having the license and old boxes not having it could possibly add more strength to my point. Maybe when Redbull was not making an issue out of licensing the box did not have the statement. Now that Redbull is making an issue out of it the box does have the "Licensed by Redbull" statement.

My point is this, as an example: Lets imagine that I owned Autoart (which I do not) and I paid a significant amount of money to have the "rights" to use the Redbull name and logo. I do this because I want to produce a Redbull F1 diecast replica and sell it to everyone that would like to buy a Redbull F1 diecast replica (diecast model). Then lets imagine that you own a company that produces resin cast F1 models and you decide to produce a Redbull version of an F1 car and sell it to everyone that wants to buy one. Now, lets imagine that you are selling the resin model for $100 but I have to sell my diecast for $200 because I have to recover the large fee that I paid to get the right to use the Redbull name and logo, yet, you can under sell me because you didn't pay for the rights and you have no major investment to recover. I lose business and I lose money on my investment because you choose to do something illegal.

I (the imaginary owner of Autoart) would be very pissed at you for causing me to lose money. Since I don't own Redbull I can't come after your company. But because I have an agreement with Redbull I can go after them for allowing you to use their logo without the rights to do so. I would force them to go after you and require you to pay the fee I paid or I would force them to make you stop using the name and logo so I get my market edge back, the market edge I paid for. If they didn't force your company and other comapnies like yours to stop I would sue them to get my money back. If this happens what do you think Redbull is going to do?

That is the point I was making. It's not my opinion that I think it's happeneing it's just a possibility, a thought. My thoughts could be wrong (and usually are ) just like your thoughts could be wrong unless you work for Redbull and have the facts.

The only "opinion" I have is that I think it sucks that the larger companies (think tires without sidewall lettering, etc...) charge such outrageous fees that make it impossible for the smaller companies to obtain the rights to use the name and logo for something so harmless as modeling. I have no opinion about what I think is really going on. I don't work for any company involved nor do I know anybody that works for any company involved therefore I have no clue what the real issue is.... I only have thoughts about the many possibilities that it could be. I chose to post about this possibility because many of the others had already been posted.

Only that Die-cast collectors and model builders aren't the same people, so a die-cast producer isn't losing market share because of a resin or plastic kit.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by jano11

Only that Die-cast collectors and model builders aren't the same people, so a die-cast producer isn't losing market share because of a resin or plastic kit.

Doesn't matter and not relevent and even untrue if you ask some people.

It's still a (possible) case of someone who paid complaining that other aren't paying. Doesn't matter if the branding is on a model car, a pen or a packet of condoms.

[jano11]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Doesn't matter and not relevent and even untrue if you ask some people.

Quantify "some people".

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

It's still a (possible) case of someone who paid complaining that other aren't paying. Doesn't matter if the branding is on a model car, a pen or a packet of condoms.

Tell me how do you think that those who pay know that the others aren't?!

[jano11]

And before I forget, these situations would never have arisen if big corporations weren't willing to make money, even if only small amounts through these licensing contracts, while they are paying big money for advertising.

No matter how we turn it, the matter and the blame lies with those owning the trade marks i.e. the RedCow piss producers.

[drunken monkey]

Who some people are also doesn't matter because that is not the point being made.

Originally Posted by jano11

Tell me how do you think that those who pay know that the others aren't?!

The easy way is to ask the brand owner if company x paid for the use of the brand.
Y'know, they do have legal departments dedicated to this sort of thing.

[jano11]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Who some people are also doesn't matter because that is not the point being made.

I don't want their names, I just wanted you to quantify "some people", it can be 1%, 5%, 10% or more.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

The easy way is to ask the brand owner if company x paid for the use of the brand.
Y'know, they do have legal departments dedicated to this sort of thing.

So the die-cast and other model companies that pay for licenses also pay for people who are keeping an eye on the market to search for other product using the same brands that they have paid a license for and than ask if those also got a license?!

I'm sure this is true because I know how dumb most of the current management around the world is nowadays.
I would rather not pay tens of thousands a year for someone to search the net and instead invest the money in new products to be a step in front of the competition.

Also, how are they going to enforce copyright laws in Russia and especially China where most of the not licensed stuff comes from?!