If theres a heaven....

[Porsche]

I like your modesty and Innocence Adam, I also believe but I don't go to church or anyhting like that.


I think that evolution is a good thing but it is aweapon also. Just look at bombs for example. The first bomb was some guy dropping a grenade out of a plane in WW1. Today their are Los Angeles and Sea Wolf class submarines that each carry 24 Tridnet and Polaris Nuclear missile. One submarine ha more destructive power than that of world War 2. I'm off whatever topic this is but

My philosophy is that you live, you do something to affect society and then you die. The second step isn't always there but. When you die I Believe that you will either go to heaven or hell. The thing that puzzles me is the line that divides sinners and the pure. Does that mean that Bella is the only person going to heaven? If you steal a useless item for short term fufillment does that mean your're off to hell?

The one thing is for sure, when we die we'll ll come to that fork in the road. That's my 1 cent.

[Adam]

It's not a matter of how much you sin, if that's what you're thinking. Bill Clinton could go to heaven if he acknowledged and applied that Jesus died for our sins, etc. I'm sure you heard all of that before.... haven't you?

[Porsche]

That's like lying.

[enzo@af]

Evolution is arguable. To me, it makes perfect sense. I know that evolution does happen....Human's have witnessed it.

As for the creation of life....I wish I could give you a link, or a reference to the TV show I saw it on (on TLC) some scientists recreated a volcanic lake by adding certain molecules. Over time simple proteins naturally formed in them. Imagine that happening over millions and millions of years.

Evolution can't explain everything....it doesn't claim to. The Bible is just a book. Seriously. It was not written by God, so I don't completely understand the argument that it is infallible. It was written by men, so I don't mind doubting it.

Later.

[Porsche]

Evolution almost dosen't make sense (No sense whatsoever) at the beigning, something out of nothing, rocks into fish. It is cool though.

[Heep]

I'm a practicing Baptist Christian, and I believe in salvation, the Bible, etc.

As far as creation vs. evolution, both have weak points.

Neither can prove where there origins (God, small dot of matter) came from. First, I'll add my thoughts about evolution. I will say what I have studied about it, if I'm outdated and you believe other things, please let me know for my own enlightenment.

The earth is not "billions of years" old.

Say I dig up a Casio watch in an old mine.
Me: "This watch has been here 1000 years"
You: "No, this mine is only 150 years old"
Me: "OK, then, the watch is 150 years old"
You: "That's impossible, they've only made that model for 12 years"
Me: "Alright, it's been here for 12 years."
You: "That's also impossible! The batteries in those only last 5 years and this one is still running."

Because of certain factors, it's been proven that the watch is no more than 5 years old. The same can be applied here...If only one factor proves that the earth has only been around for a few thousand years, then the whole idea of billions of years is effectilvely thrown out.

The Bible teaches that God made the universe from nothing about 6000 years ago. Then, about 4400 years ago, there was a great flood. This flood completely covered the earth, and lasted about a year. It was responsible for the sediment layers being deposited. As the water died down, it rushed off the mountains and into the large ocean basins. This rapid erosion through still soft, unprotected sediments formed the topography of the earth, including places such as the Grand Canyon. This shows how our earth could have been formed in such a short time.

There are several factors that limit the age of the earth.

First, you have our shrinking sun. It shinks at 1-5 feet a day...let's just say one. Saying the sun has a diameter of about 4,564,200,960 feet. As you go back in time, the sun grows about a foot a day. 2 billion years = 730 billion days. Therefore 2 billion years ago, the sun was 730 billiion feet bigger, or 734,564,200,960 feet in diameter. Thus it would occupy the orbit of Mercury (189,847,152,000 feet from the sun), Venus (354,774,816,000 feet from the sun, Earth (490,520,448,000 feet from the sun), and come very close to Mars. Allowing for all planets to exist, that leaves about 425 million years for evolution to occur. However, the earth would be tremendously hot for a long time.

The half inch layer of cosmic dust on the moon shows that it has not been accumulating this for billions of years.

The moon is receding a few inches per year. Billions of years ago, the moon would be so close that the tides would have been much higher, eroding away the continents in the process.

The moon contains considerable quantities of U-236 and Th-230, both short-lived isotopes that would be non existent if the universe was billions of years old.

Saturn's rings are still unstable, showing that they are not billions of years old.

Ancient astronomers 2000 years ago recorded the star Sirius as a red star. Today it is a white dwarf star. Today's astronomy textbooks state that it takes 100000 years for a to "evolve" from a red star to a white dwarf, thus disproving that belief.

Earth's decaying magnetic field limits the age to far less than billions of years.

The erosion rate of the continents is such that they would erode to sea level in 14,000,000 years, destroying old fossils.

Topsoil formation rates indicate a mere few thousand years of formation.

Niagara Falls' erosion rate (4 to 5 feet per year) indicates an age of less than 10000 years. Don't forget that Noah's flood could have eroded half of the seven-mile long Niagara river gorge in a few hours as the flood waters rushed through the soft sediment.

The rock encasing oil deposits could not withstand the pressure for more than a few thousand years.

The slowing spin of the earth limits it's age to less than billions of years.

The largest stalactite and flowstone formations could have easily been formed in about 4400 years.

The oceans are getting saltier. If they were billions of years old, they would be far saltier now.

The current population of earth (6 billion for a nice round number) could have been easily generated by eight people (flood survivors) in less than 4400 years.

The oldest living coral reef is less than 4200 years old.

The oldest living tree is about 4300 years old.



I could very easily and still may go on and on, but I'm tired now, and I've probably already taken a whole page.

These are just a few thoughts for you to dwell on...believe what you want, but please consider these.

[enzo@af]

And that's what bothers me about people who argue against evolution. It doesn't try to explain where the first life came from, but what happened once there was life.

People think that the bible and the theory of evolution contradict....they don't. I believe both. I don't take the bible as fact all the time, and I understand that evolution is a theory. It explains why there are over 1000 different species of fruit flies, why the peppered moth of England changed coloration during the industrial revolution, and why man doesn't have a pronounced forehead like the neanderthals.

[enzo@af]

Originally posted by Heep
The Bible teaches that God made the universe from nothing about 6000 years ago. Then, about 4400 years ago, there was a great flood.

Who exactly wrote the Bible? Did God? I always thought it was written by men....fallible men. Discrepancies are possible. If it was by God....How do we know?

Originally posted by Heep First, you have our shrinking sun. It shinks at 1-5 feet a day...let's just say one. Saying the sun has a diameter of about 4,564,200,960 feet. As you go back in time, the sun grows about a foot a day. 2 billion years = 730 billion days. Therefore 2 billion years ago, the sun was 730 billiion feet bigger, or 734,564,200,960 feet in diameter. Thus it would occupy the orbit of Mercury (189,847,152,000 feet from the sun), Venus (354,774,816,000 feet from the sun, Earth (490,520,448,000 feet from the sun), and come very close to Mars. Allowing for all planets to exist, that leaves about 425 million years for evolution to occur. However, the earth would be tremendously hot for a long time.[/b]

That assumes completely constant variables.

Originally posted by Heep The half inch layer of cosmic dust on the moon shows that it has not been accumulating this for billions of years.

The moon is receding a few inches per year. Billions of years ago, the moon would be so close that the tides would have been much higher, eroding away the continents in the process.

The moon contains considerable quantities of U-236 and Th-230, both short-lived isotopes that would be non existent if the universe was billions of years old.[/b]

I believe the theory that the moon was formed from the Earth. It was broken off by a huge meteor. This would account for all of those.

Originally posted by Heep
Ancient astronomers 2000 years ago recorded the star Sirius as a red star. Today it is a white dwarf star. Today's astronomy textbooks state that it takes 100000 years for a to "evolve" from a red star to a white dwarf, thus disproving that belief.[/b]

3.....2......1......WHITE! Yay! It's white now. The value there is a generalization. Certain factors could increase or decrease this amount of time. Decrease it by that much? I don't know. But of course, the telescope hadn't been invented 2000 years ago, so how could they have known for sure?

Originally posted by Heep The erosion rate of the continents is such that they would erode to sea level in 14,000,000 years, destroying old fossils.

Niagara Falls' erosion rate (4 to 5 feet per year) indicates an age of less than 10000 years. Don't forget that Noah's flood could have eroded half of the seven-mile long Niagara river gorge in a few hours as the flood waters rushed through the soft sediment.

The rock encasing oil deposits could not withstand the pressure for more than a few thousand years.

The slowing spin of the earth limits it's age to less than billions of years.

The largest stalactite and flowstone formations could have easily been formed in about 4400 years.

The oceans are getting saltier. If they were billions of years old, they would be far saltier now.[/b]

Tectonic plates, and variation in these forces could account for all of these. Who says that Niagara falls has always taken it's current path? Who says the formation of stalactites was always at a constant rate and always with a source?

[Porsche]

The bible is a very good explanation of events and so is evolution, I also agree with both. There are conflicting matters though, nothing is perfect.

I'm talking about prehistoric life-forms. Hences the name pre-historic, meaning "before history". If you say according to the bible, that the earht could have only been around for 6600 years, how do you explain them. Sciencetists have estimated dinosaurs to be in the rabge of 45 to 250+ million years ago. That means that it had to be around for at least that long.

Also about the sun, just because it is shrinking toady dosen't mean it was growing thousands of years ago. Things do change, like you said, stars transform. Millions of years ago the sun may have been at a different stage causing it to remain the same size for millions of years. It may have only changed to a new state a couple of thousand years ago. Like you though, there are many conflicting matters.

[enzo@af]

Originally posted by Porsche
Sciencetists have estimated dinosaurs to be in the rabge of 45 to 250+ million years ago. That means that it had to be around for at least that long.

"Oh, but Porsche, how can you say that? You can't believe those scientists...after all, some of the greatest minds of the 17th century thought the sun revolved around the earth!" someone might say.

My reply woult be this...How can you distrust science in this case, yet use in explaining the sun, and other stuff.

What's the right answer? I guess we'll never know.....

[ichthus]

Well, rather than go back and check what I said in the past, I'll just continue with whatever. First, let me say that I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back into this, i had midterms all last week and am now on Spring Break...as you can imagine posting here isn't my biggest priority...

Now, someone had mentioned my statements on drugs, sounding like they assumed I was saying that drugs and alcohol are perfectly fine. They're not. All things God created are good, but they are meant for a certain time, place and use. Sex is great -- when in marriage. Drugs are great -- when usedto cure. Alcohol is fine -- when used for pain or thirst. It is only when abused and misused that any of these things become wrong. "There is a time for everything.", the Bible says.

Now, for the most recent issues... I'm trying to get in touch with a guy that explained many of the faults with Carbon Dating, but suffice it to say that it is a far cry from being perfect...or even a significantly accurate. Dinosaurs over 250 million years old? Maybe, but far from being the fact you seem to take it as.

I find it more than a little amusing that you try to disprove many of the "anti-evolutuion/Big-bang theory" statements by saying that trends are variable and that many of the observed phenomena may have changed prior to observance (though you said so in fewer words). So then, please explain to me the proof for evolution and where it is found? Observations, correct? In fact, observations of what is happening today, not what happened millions or even billions of years ago. In fact, the problems with Scientific theories of the origins is that when we apply the patterns they are based on to the universe as a whole we run into unexplainable problems that cannot be answered without contradictory theories that would, when applied to the rest of the patterns, deem them impossible as well.

Take, for instance, some very basic atomic theory. All know that Opposites attract. This is supposed to explain why protons are attracted to electrons. Forgive me if i reverse the two here, but you should get the picture. I believe that electrons make up the core of an atom and protons circle around said core. Given that like charges repel each other, the protons orbit at equal disances from each other. What science can NOT explain is why the electrons in the core do not repel each other, but rather, form a tight bond.

When discussing Evolution...I will say that as a Christian I firmly believe in it. In fact, I would say the Bible proves evolution to be true. Ok, so first I shocked everyone with saying that drugs were good...now I'll amend this one too.

There is a significant difference between Micro-evolution and Macro-evolution. The former explains why the moth changed colors, why we have differentiation within species and such. The Latter is the completely unproven theory that one species could evolve into another. Bacteria to fish to frogs to lizards to dinos to mammals.

Science is based on observation. Therefore, theories of universal origins are nothing more than cosmic guesses. In fact, theories of anything not directly observed are nothing more than guesses based on forensic evidence.

Why do I think the Bible supports evolution? Quite simply the story of the Flood. If Noah had to wait on only 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 flies, 2 pigs, 2 monkeys, etc. It would be quite simple. After the flood species would slowly evolve within their own kind to produce the many different dogs, cats, pigs, and monkey's we see today.

well, enough for now, i'm tired. :o

[enzo@af]

Yes, you got it backwards with the atomic theory there....electrons orbit, and they don't orbit all at the same distance. There are energy shells that they fill. It can be somewhat complicated, but basically lighter (smaller atomic number) elements such as Hydrogen have electrons closer to the nucleus, whereas heavier (higher atomic number) elements fill many shells (Gold, Einsteinium....). I've heard theories that explain the cohesion of a nucleus, but unfortunately I don't remember any....I'll dig into it deeper though.

Originally posted by my main man, Ichthus
So then, please explain to me the proof for evolution and where it is found?

Well, the guiding force that can explain evolution is logic and mathematics.
Simple example....
There is an animal. Now, at one locus, the animal could either have a "A" gene, or a "a" gene. If the animal has "A", it survives all of the time....but an "a" gene diminishes the fitness of the animal to only survive to reproduce 90% (.9) of the time. If the two different types were equally frequent (lets say 100 of each), after one generation (selection followed by mating), there would be 100 "A"s and 100*.9 or 90 "a"s. This process goes on and on....
There's plenty more to that (such as mutation, selection, Hardy Weinberg Equilibrium) but that's a simple formula that can be used to model changes in allele frequencies. How does that account for speciation? Well, suppose a new, advantageous mutation arises. Because it has a higher fitness (being advantageous and all) it will eventually raise it's frequency (such as the A raised it's frequency from .5 to 100/190, or .526).

Now, none of this explains where the first instance of life came from. Nothing does conclusively. If you believe the bible, it says god created it. However, I believe science regarding carbon dating and the like.

I, like Ichthus, am a practicing Christian. However, I don't always believe the bible. I know there must be some greater force than man, and I attribute it to God. However, the book of God was written by mortal, fallible men, just like you and I, so I have trouble taking it for complete, concrete fact.

[enzo@af]

I suppose I consider myself somewhat of a deist...the watchmaker theory. God created the earth, and then let it take it's own course...such as a watchmaker creates a watch, but then leaves it to keep time on it's own.

[Lizard King]

Oh man, don't get me started on the flaws of the flood story...

[enzo@af]

I see heaven a little differently than the common conception of it. Many think as soon as you go to heaven it's just one big party...everyone having fun and partying. Well, that's not how I see it. Heaven could be boring as anything as far as I'm concerned. The point is that it's salvation from earthly life. It doesn't run on time or conventional thoughts.

Heaven isn't about going somewhere fun, it's about meeting your maker and becoming a greater being. People fear hell...rightfully so...and want to go to heaven because it seems fun.