Electric Supercharger!!!!!!omg...

[zanickzanick]

if the motor was rated at 3.8hp, you are not just going to be able to double the voltage to double the power. if it is thermally protected, it will throw that breaker. Plus, we are talking about 15 to 20hp to make 5psi at 600cfm. (not 3.8 or 7!!) 5hp may buy you about 3psi or so, and that is still very good, but you wont be smoking any 315x35s either.
unless you are in tahoe on some Ice!!

was that motor rating at 24v and 3.8 hp?? or was it 12volt?

anyway, depending on the winding and the commutation, you may not get the power you think you would be, just by increasing the votage. you may just increase the torque, get more heat and not do much with the speed. without knowing the motor you are looking at, I cant help, but I did work with AC and DC motors , and they were industrial types for over 12 years. I also went around the country and gave seminars about power conversion topics. so, motors are something i do know a bit about.

MK

Originally Posted by BIG JIM 54

"our eRAM does work, and work well, albeit only 1psi at 3-400cfm"

If that's the case, my unit should light my 315/35-17ZR Michelin Pilot's on fire.

The AirResearch .95 Turbo was $81 used off EBay and my 3.8HP motor was $175 brand new. I'd be afraid my 371HP SB Chevy would swallow your eRam unit.

I can put 48V to the motor for short periods for a total of 7.8HP. Even the eggheads on the CorvetteForum say all I need is 1.9HP per pound of boost at 5000 RPM.

Big Jim Greenemeyer

[BIG JIM 54]

How do I know? That's what it says on the turbo inlet housing. I suggest you contact AirResearch if you want to know more about that turbo.

How do you know what type motorcycle battery I'm going to install and how do you know what an unspecified motorcycle battery costs? I haven't figured that out yet but maybe you can see into the future. I can't.

I have already admitted to having to use two intake ducts for when the turbo compressor is on or off. A simple flap arrangment will work fine.

Where do you see my electric motor will only turn 3000 RPM? You don't even know what the .95 turbo designation means so how do you know what RPM the compressor must run to make the boost I want?

As far as I'm concerned, your entire posts are non sequitur.

BTW, I am considered by many to be the #1 expert in world on the electric motors used in radio controlled racing cars and this concept is just a little bigger. I also have a published book on the subject, BIG JIM's R/C Motor Black Book, published by Trafford Publishing.

I say this to assure you I am probably more aware of what a properly designed and applied electric motor can do than most people.

Electric motor power can be doubled for short periods by doubling the voltage input. Not a hard concept to understand. I'll put in the power until I get the boost I want. After all, it will only work at wide-open throttle for a few seconds at a time. I mean, how much can you use 500 HP on the street at one time. Considering I'm making 371HP now at 450 ft.lbs. of torque, 500HP is not an unrealistic goal.

As I said, I'm not plannng to ever sell a device like this. It's just for fun and to show the "experts" it can be done. Maybe my posts will spark someone with the resources out there to undertake the venture and put on the market a REAL electric forced-induction appartus. Sure, it will cost more probably than $300 but at least it will do something worthwhile.

[Katoom]

Why bother. If you want a supercharged vehicle, go buy one. There are lots out there. Thunderbird S/C, XR-7 S/C, GTP, Bonneville SSEI, Aurora, F-150 Lightning. If you want the true effect of a chrager, then you would want a belt driven aluminum unit that will develop 10-14 psi just off of idle. Thats what it's all about! I have a XR-7 S/C and it's a riot. The rest of the car is built to handle it....motor, tranny, suspension, brakes etc.

[Hypsi87]

Originally Posted by BIG JIM 54

Well actually....

These things you see on EBay are wimps! They will probably decrease air flow due to their own restriction.

900 cfm won't do you anything either.

Since I never plan on selling this device I made, I don't mind telling you all about it.

First, these people who say you can't make significant boost even in a Chevy V8 are mistaken I believe. I say "believe" because I actually haven't finished the project yet but all the numbers come together.

Second, why does everyone believe you have to drive an electric motor with only 12 volts just because that's what the car is wired with?

Third, Roots and centrifugal type superchargers use about 45 HP to make say, 150 HP in a car engine. No electric motor you can put in your car is going to produce 45 HP, agreed. So that is out of the question. But turbo compressors can make a lot of boost. Everyone knows that as well. They require RPM to make boost because the exhaust of a car doesn't have a lot of pressure behind it.

But to offset turbo lag, it's advisable to use 1 or 2 small turbos that spoolup quickly. One large turbo is felt to be counter-productive since the spoolup time would be so slow. But it does push a lot of air at a lower RPM ultimately. Just not practical for the street.

Now to my project. I have found a very large turbocharger compressor off a big Detroit Diesel. As it was made, it weights over 50 pounds and has an 11 inch impeller to make boost with. Cutting off the exhaust side, it now weights 19 pounds. Do you all get where I'm going with this?

Yep, I found a 3.8HP, 24 volt electric motor (over 2800 watts). It's only 4"x7". This motor has so much torque it will pull your arm out of it's socket. This is going to be hooked up to the compressor side of the turbo impellar shaft with a Kevlar belt arrangement with various size pulleys that I can put on to vary impeller RPM. Impeller RPM would determine boost levels.

That 3.8HP electric motor only runs at 5000 RPM. But here's how the calculations come out. I can over-drive the motor at 1:4 or 1:5 or more so that big turbo compressor spins at 20-25,000 RPM. At that RPM, that size compressor will make 5-6 pounds of boost in a Chevy 350 at 5000 RPM. I don't know exactly how far I can go with the ratio but I figure maybe 1:10 overdriven. 0 to 20,000 RPM comes in 0.8 seconds so no lag ever.

Still so far, I know you're thinking it's impossible. I'm not done yet. The motor will be powered by 2 small motorcycle batteries in the engine compartment hooked up in series to supply the 24 volts. They will be charged in parallel by the car's alternator. They do nothing but turn on the motor at WOT only. The engine's throttle body will have mounted a small push button off-on switch wired into 2 Ford 60A starter relays that will send power to the electric motor running the turbo impeller when I put my foot in it. Even with 24 volts, it will require 118 amps for a motor to make 3.8HP. That's why the 2 60A relays. I don't think that electric motor will need all of it's 3.8HP to make my target boost level.

I have all the necessary parts except waste gate, plumbing and other stuff I'm sure I'll discover. But it will make for one quick '87 Corvette. And like I said, the numbers are there. I still have to figure injector and fuel pump/regulator size.

I am reasonably sure I can spin that compressor to make 10 pounds of boost by altering the ratio of pulleys. But I'm going to start slow so as not to run into detonation and/or engine destruction. The engine is fresh however.

But just with 6 pounds of boost at 5000 RPM into my slightly modified Chevy 350 TPI engine, I'll be making 550-600 HP! And it will be virtually instant!
No power lose from just driving the forced-induction pump like with a supercharger and no "turbo lag" from an exhaust-driven pump. Best of everything.

My question. Why hasn't someone done this before and why do all the "experts" tell me it can't be done? Am I going to make history?

BIG JIM

I run a single TE-60 turbo and i have virtually no lag at all. Tubos do not lag as bad as people make them out. I have a question.... If your cutting off the exahust housing then why do you need a wastegate???? And another thing I work for CAT and I have been around alot of turbochargers, I have never seen a 11 inch compressor wheel. Something is not right here. Oh and that .95 that is casted on your compressor housing is the A/R raito.

[zanickzanick]

If you are an expert on model electric motors, we can speak the same language. However, the motor that could drive a tubo, like a .95 air research, would be very unique. Its one thing to do what we do with the eRAM for moderate 10hp gains for a cost of 55amps intermittantly, and 25,000rpm and less than 1psi. Its another thing to try and use two small batteries to drive a much larger HP motor, and to have it reach RPMs that could run a turbo. remember, driving a turbo via exhaust gasses comparted to driving it with an electric motor, (even geared) is a non trivial task. a belt driven supercharger, driven by an electric motor is concievable, and there actually is a drag racing version available today by a specialty manufacturer which uses 3 starter motors tied to a supercharger. ( 1000amps, 8psi boost, 300cfm).

the point is, to do all this work to have a turbo /supercharger to make 5-7psi for 15 seconds seems arguable, as just belting up a standared centrifugal supercharger to a belt from a pulley could do the job and you dont have to worry about big amps, charging systems and aux air duct chamber flaps

Sure, im aware it can be done, however, it would be a lot of work. just a spare 3.8hp electric motor will not do the trick. as it is now, we are using the small dc brush motors that can handle 55amps for short duration and give the small gains we claim. (ie 5-10hp range for $300)
Im sure that a multistage axial flow fan or a centrifugal blower running off a geared UP high speed electrical motor may do the trick. Remember, to gear up an electric motor is not that easy either. if you have a big 3.8hp motor spinning at 3000, a 5:1 or even a 10:1 pully system would be needed to run a turbo at 15 to 30,000rpm. hardly the RPM needed to produce any usable pressure, not to mention air flow. Again, it can be done, but there just are not any Large electric motors available that can turn the RPMs you need to do the task. and even if they have the HP, you then need to get the gearing part right.

You said it yourself, the corvette folks said it takes 1.9HP per lb of boost for a 350 ci engine. if that is the case, I dont care how you do it, it will still cost slightly more, as the efficiency of gearing and the motor would at least double the requirements. (ie 1.9hp per lb of boost going to 4HP per lb of boost on a 350ci engine as the electric motor eff. will be 70% and the gearing up eff. will be at best, 80%) so, at 5psi boost, you would need 15,000 watts input, or 600amps at 24volts. it would take more than a couple of 60amp what evers to do this. You asked the question, that is the answer. Now the logical question, is how do you get 600amps to this " 3.8hp " device that is only able to drive 1psi for a 350chevy motor anyway? As has been stated before, a bolt on 5psi supercharger on cars that have them installed today, require about 20hp mechanically. meaning, you need at least 50-100% more input watts electrically to acheive the net mechanical output of 20hp.

Now, how is this going to work with the batteries?? at 24volts and 600amps, you would need 2 large lead acid batteries in series. even two large ones, would only give 30seconds of operation to the supercharger. each battery would require 60-100amp hours or current.
All this means, you COULD have a device ok for drag racing, but that a lot of weight to carry around too!! (ie 10-30lbs of motor, and 50-80lbs of batteries)

It would be a challenge, but yes, it could be done, but its going to cost a lot of $$$

you asked for some comments, and these are mine.

MK


.

Originally Posted by BIG JIM 54

How do I know? That's what it says on the turbo inlet housing. I suggest you contact AirResearch if you want to know more about that turbo.

How do you know what type motorcycle battery I'm going to install and how do you know what an unspecified motorcycle battery costs? I haven't figured that out yet but maybe you can see into the future. I can't.

I have already admitted to having to use two intake ducts for when the turbo compressor is on or off. A simple flap arrangment will work fine.

Where do you see my electric motor will only turn 3000 RPM? You don't even know what the .95 turbo designation means so how do you know what RPM the compressor must run to make the boost I want?

As far as I'm concerned, your entire posts are non sequitur.

BTW, I am considered by many to be the #1 expert in world on the electric motors used in radio controlled racing cars and this concept is just a little bigger. I also have a published book on the subject, BIG JIM's R/C Motor Black Book, published by Trafford Publishing.

I say this to assure you I am probably more aware of what a properly designed and applied electric motor can do than most people.

Electric motor power can be doubled for short periods by doubling the voltage input. Not a hard concept to understand. I'll put in the power until I get the boost I want. After all, it will only work at wide-open throttle for a few seconds at a time. I mean, how much can you use 500 HP on the street at one time. Considering I'm making 371HP now at 450 ft.lbs. of torque, 500HP is not an unrealistic goal.

As I said, I'm not plannng to ever sell a device like this. It's just for fun and to show the "experts" it can be done. Maybe my posts will spark someone with the resources out there to undertake the venture and put on the market a REAL electric forced-induction appartus. Sure, it will cost more probably than $300 but at least it will do something worthwhile.

[xproductionz]

you know what... i was just reading around a bit and found this forum about superchargers.... well guess what.. i have the super e-ram from www.electricsupercharger.com and i was too skeptical but i had to money to burn... so i figured i would go ahead and get the best model they had which is a dual blower setup and has a screen behind the fans so nothing goes into the intake... i definitely felt the difference and i was even more skeptical so i went down to get the car dyno tested... the product claimed 27hp but when we tersted it there was a gain of 22hp... i was also skeptical about the psi so we got that measured..product claimed 1.7psi but we measured 1.97psi... thats nearly 2psi boost....good part about it is that its instant power through only rpm range..basically anytime you go wide open throttle... next thing i did was got the thing removed a few months later and got a turbo kit put it.. there is not nearly alot of lag as people ssay there is..just depends on the size of the turbo for spooling thats all.... but anyways i didnt want the electric supercharger to go to waste... so i put it right before the air goes into the intercooler....now my lag is gone as long only when i go wide open throttle...plus it gives me instant boost on my low rpms which i think is a plus

[94tegRS]

wow this is old, anyways even at low rpms' when you floor it, I dont think that little thing is compressing all the air in the intercooler and the charge pipe and the intake manifold by the time the turbo is spooled, MAYBE it was doing something before, and I guess il believe it cuz unles you were trying to sell it you wouldnt lie I dont think, but it was inline close to the TB, nopt much ot compress, but now you got a big intercooler and all that charge pipe and I dont think it is doing anything, like i said first, your turbo is spooled before the little fan has compressed all the air in the intercooler and charge pipe, by the way you said it I am thinking yopu got it instaled between the turbo and the intercooler inlet pipe right?

[xproductionz]

haha..i know yea...this forum is old... but let me clarify where the e-ram is according to air flow.....before the e-ram was in stalled it look like this.. AIRFILTER>>INTERCOOLER>>TURBO>>THROTTLEBODY... originally i was going to put the e-ram all the way next to the filter but iwas tld the same thing you said...it would require to much to compress... so now my setup is as follows... AIRFILTER>>INTERCOOLER>>E-RAM>>TURBO>>THROTTLE BODY.. i was also thinking of placing the e-ram after the turbo between the turbo and throttle body but i ddint want to take the risk of the e-ram not being able to handle all of the boost from the turbo when it spools up...haha.. ur right im not trying to sell the product.. but i thought i would just say my experience with it...

[94tegRS]

you got the intercooler before the turbo??? ok STOP talking right now, you dont have a CLUE what you are talking about

[thunderbird muscle]

I test drove a t-bird s/c. What is so great about the s/c being supercharged my 4.6 95 thunderbird actually has more power and a better exhaust note. Why super charge when you can get more motor. Now when you get a V8 with a supercharger on it then you have really accomplished something. Well I do have to give the S/C better gas mileage

[littledevilbkr23]

ok dangerranger02, yea youve seen the supercharger that electric, im in the automotive course at votec, its a course were students learn the automotive industry. we ordered one of thema nd payed 450 bucks. we took a stoick honda civic put in on dyno and came up wit 125 hp at peak, we put the supercharger on, came up with 134 hp at peak and a whole lotta pissed of people couse it was a waste of oney that we could of used for other stuff in class. so the thing is, dont get one, tis not worth it, if your gonan ut a supercharger on your vehicle, put a real one, use american muscle to, dont put it on a civic

[94tegRS]

Originally Posted by littledevilbkr23

ok dangerranger02, yea youve seen the supercharger that electric, im in the automotive course at votec, its a course were students learn the automotive industry. we ordered one of thema nd payed 450 bucks. we took a stoick honda civic put in on dyno and came up wit 125 hp at peak, we put the supercharger on, came up with 134 hp at peak and a whole lotta pissed of people couse it was a waste of oney that we could of used for other stuff in class. so the thing is, dont get one, tis not worth it, if your gonan ut a supercharger on your vehicle, put a real one, use american muscle to, dont put it on a civic

damn, do you know how old this is?

anyways I am guessing you are talking the civic SI cuz a SOHC is never gonna dyno 125 stock. and 9WHP for 450 isnt really too bad, sure 100 bucks more and you could have had 55WHP more, but not alot of people wanna spray their rides.

think about how much people spend on simple bolt ons

AEM CAI about 200
DC sports header about 300
greddy exhaust about 500

theres around 1000 bucks for about the same HP increase, maybe a tad more.

I still owuld never put a plastic, electric supercharger on anything I own now or ever will own.

[nose-gobblin]

its goota be real it shows a picture of some asian chick holding it, thus its real LOL

[phatmitz]

http://www.titanboost.com/store/titanboostkits.html

these are real kits

[skoobysnkz]

Im not tryin to burst your bubble Jim but I know a lil about electrical theory and circuits (I'm an electrician) so I just wanted to suggest a money saving addition to your system. An electric motor draws much higher amperage than the nameplate rating as it is starting. Sometimes 10x depending on the type of motor. I would suggest installing at least 1 1f capacitor (aprox $80 apeice at your local car stereo store) in parrallel with each of your motorcycle batteries. This will not alleviate all of the extra strain on the batteries but will greatly reduce it as the capacitors will supply current to maintain the same voltage (capacitor resist change in voltage). This will prevent you from buying new batteries once a month.

Casey
Your friendly neighborhood electrical guy

[quote=BIG JIM 54]Well actually....

Second, why does everyone believe you have to drive an electric motor with only 12 volts just because that's what the car is wired with?

...

Still so far, I know you're thinking it's impossible. I'm not done yet. The motor will be powered by 2 small motorcycle batteries in the engine compartment hooked up in series to supply the 24 volts. They will be charged in parallel by the car's alternator. They do nothing but turn on the motor at WOT only. The engine's throttle body will have mounted a small push button off-on switch wired into 2 Ford 60A starter relays that will send power to the electric motor running the turbo impeller when I put my foot in it. Even with 24 volts, it will require 118 amps for a motor to make 3.8HP. That's why the 2 60A relays. I don't think that electric motor will need all of it's 3.8HP to make my target boost level.