Fast 4 door sedans worthy of street racing

[Fliquer]

I agree about the 1.8t being a very advanced motor, but dont go trying to say the germans make better motors than the japanese. When was the last time you saw a N/A 2L w/ 240hp at 9000rpm in a german road car? (If you haven't guessed, im talking about the s2000's F20C engine)

If you wanna talk turbos, the CA18 was generating #s similar to the best 1.8ts and it can handle up to 350 hp on stock internals (that was back in the early 90's). And dont forget the advanced for its time 4AG or the 4G63 (2.0L turbo making 280hp w/ a lot of potential). The supra engine can hold 700hp on stock internals.

I dont wanna say one region makes better motors. I would simply call them different.

[MadZ]

I've seen some pretty mean V6's by BMW, one was making something like 340 hp. I know it's not a 4 banger like the s2000, but still, that much power out of a V6.... damn.

[Cbass]

The F20 from the S2000 is an excellent motor, but it has no grunt below 6000 rpm. I'm talking about overall rating here, not specifics. German engines have better aren't indestructable, but they aren't any less reliable than a Japanese motor. Most German motors have superb low end torque as well as horsepower. Most German engines can stand ridiculous amounts of abuse and keep coming back for more.

Look at a 20 year old Japanese motor, and compare it to a 20 year old German motor. Then you will see what I am getting at. Germany has been producing the best motors in the world for a long time, and the Japanese have only started making world class engines in the last two decades(with a few notable exceptions). In fact, the best Japanese motors before the 80s were often copied from German motors, The 240Z and 510 cylinder heads were patterned after a Mercedes Benz from the late 50s.

The Mazda Rotary engine was a German design, and it wasn't until last year that it was actually perfected, with proper apex seals, and it took Ford to do that!

Not to say that the Japanese don't build great engines, because they do. In fact, some Japanese engines are better than most German engines. Overall however, I would say that liter for liter, piston for piston, the Germans make better engines.

[Fliquer]

Look at a 20 year old Japanese motor, and compare it to a 20 year old German motor

Name a good german engine from the 80s, and say why it was good. Back in the 70's Japan was pioneering modern engine techniques like overhead cams (toyota's AG series), fuel injection, rotaries, 3+ valves per cylinder, and higher-rpm street cars (when 5000 was the norm).

It is widely accepted that germany did not build many great cars in the 80s, but the only decent engines I can think of from that era were the VW 16v four (late 80s), and audi's quirky 5-cylinder turbo (I am a particular fan of that engine).

BTW: Rotaries originated in Japan in the 40's as a direct result of the hiroshima bombing.

[Cbass]

Pioneered? Maybe in the US.

I could offer a particular example in the 911 motor, make hp levels that would shame any Japanese engine of the period, from 2.2 liters or less.

A good case would be the 2 liter motor found in the Porsche 924 and Audis, which to this day is a rock solid motor, with basic fuel injection and a SOHC.

Any of the BMW 4 or 6 cylinders!


The Rotary engine was invented by Dr Felix Wankel in 1921, in Germany! It was later adapted by Mazda in the 1950s in the Cosmo.

[CAptynCrunch]

"Wankel" Rotary Engine.

Yup, Wankel sure sounds like a Japanese name...

[|Banchi1O5|]

wankels not japanese
its either american or british or something like that - i cant remember right now

but bmw doesnt make a v6 they make an inline 6

and overhead cams couldnt be invented by the japs
because enzo ferrari was using them on his v12's in the late 50's

lets try to keep the facts straight, eh?

[street_racer_00]

Originally posted by Fliquer
but the only decent engines I can think of from that era were the VW 16v four (late 80s), and audi's quirky 5-cylinder turbo (I am a particular fan of that engine).

my old man had an audi 5000S back in the day when I was still in diapers and it crapped out on him after 60k miles. Before that he had an audi 4000S and it crapped out even sooner than that. Before I decided on my maxima, I was considering getting an A4, and my pops told me that if I got an audi he would disown me and leave me out of the will. Oh well, guess it was just a bad family experience with the "union.

[Fliquer]

I said "PIONEERED" not invented.

-Of course there were dohc engines in race-cars and exotics as far back as the 50s, but the JAPANESE developed them for PROFITABLE mass-production vehicles. They engineered cam engines to be cheap and fuel-efficient.

-I never said the japanese invented the rotary, they (mazda) just invented the apex seals necesary for the engine to last more than 10000 miles without seizing up.

BTW, I had an audi 5000s as my first car, and it lasted 200k+ miles before I sold it (and the new owner still drives it daily).

[Layla's Keeper]

That's funny. (goes and looks under hood of a 1966 Pontiac Tempest three blocks away) I'll be damned, OHC straight six. Wait a second (peruses one of many MG booklets and stops at 1958 MGA Twin-Cam 1600) There's a DOHC four over here, too. One more moment, (takes out Road & Track salon article on Jaguar 3.8L Saloon from 1960's) Yep, twin cams here, too. And I can vouch that all of these cars were mass-produced, inexpensive, and for the common public. Heck, if you want to get technical, Alfa Romeo, Auto Union, Mercedes-Benz, Daimler, Bentley, Bugatti, Isotta-Fraschini, Minerva, Talbot-Lago, Hispano-Suiza, and Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg were all OHC engines back when Sochiro Honda was tweaking motorcycles. (yes, I know these aren't exactly cars for the everyman, but they're still examples of how long the auto industry has been using the technology)

Besides, I'm not really on either side of this debate. I agree with Fliquer. Japanese engines are designed differently and act differently from German engines. Neither is inherently better or worse, though some examples can be better or worse than others.

[Fliquer]

Name some reliable DOHC cars from the 40s-60s that were sold in large #s (im talkin honda civic large #s). Then I'll admit that I was wrong.

Im positive that the whole movement toward double camshaft and fuel injection powered cars (as opposed to large displacement pushrods) was headed by lightweight, reliable, small-displacement jap cars in the late 70s.

[street_racer_00]

Hell, the japanese car market here is comparatively young. They didn't start importing in large quantities until the mid to late 70's. And the early models that americans got were like the early models of korean cars that started being imported to the U.S. in the late 80's/early 90's.....which is to say, crap. What a lot of people are forgetting is that reliability should be considered a relative term. The median of cars produced nowadays are a heck of a lot more reliable than the median cars of the 60's and 70's. So from the new-age point of view, cars from the 60's and 70's weren't reliable at all, no matter what car it was. But if you are looking from the viewpoint of the 60's and 70's then reliability is a relative term indeed. Does anyone know what I am getting at?

[Fliquer]

Japanese cars in the late 70s were more reliable than the american cars today.

[Layla's Keeper]

Okay, I'll admit that there are nowhere near as many MGA Twin-Cam 1600's in the world as there are Civics. And the reliability of British cars is not always well spoken of. (though, in actuality, electrical gremlins are not bespoke of the reliabilty of the mechanics of an engine).

But heres a pair of cars I can throw in that was comparitively priced and modeled with a contemporary Japanese car. The Datusn 510's main competitors, the BMW 2002 and Alfa Romeo GTV. All three were two door coupes with ohc engines under 2L. The 510 was the least powerful, but the best handling of the bunch, while the Alfa was the most powerful, with the Bimmer somewhere in between. All three cars sold well as a unit. Not Civic numbers, but easily 100,000 plus units each stateside. And only synching the dual Webers on the GTV is a complaint I hear of. So, does that qualify?

[MadZ]

Originally posted by Fliquer
Japanese cars in the late 70s were more reliable than the american cars today.

I'd have to disagree with you there, I think people underestimate the reliability of American cars. Hell, I had a '91 firebird RS with a 305 V8 and it had 145,000 miles on it when I sold it and had never had any mechanical problems, just your typical belt replacement and stuff like that. A guy I worked with has over 250,000 miles on his '89 Chevy pickup. As far as high performance cars go, you really can't expect them to last much more than 100,000 miles without a mechanical problem of some sort or rebuild anyways, thats just the price you pay for speed.