1997 Turns but doesn't start

[surferfletch]

Thanks for posting the pictures. Who knows what caused it, but apparently with normal usage an engine which came from the factory as non-interference can develop an intereference situation with wear. What's the plan?

[Ramblin Fever]

Thanks a bunch for posting the pics.

Glad I went ahead and changed mine when I did, seems too coincidental to me to not have been caused by the timing belt - since you'd JUST changed it.

[trooperbc]

Originally Posted by kenc195

Tore it down today and the belt was bad. The teeth were sheared right off the belt for 12-14 inches. Pretty nasty looking actually. I have only had the truck for 30,000 of the 178,000 miles and I have no records of prior maint, so it could be the origional one.

I will post a picture of it in the next few days along with a final cost, tools needed and hours for a so so wrench turner.

Reassmble is in the morning and I have my fingers crossed that the motor is a non-interference. At this point I believe it is because I have heard no crunching. Any tips on aligning the system would be greatly appreciated.

hey kenc195: where are you?



how did all this go for you? your thread got kind of highjacked, to say the least, but we're still interested in what happened with you. Really, honest. well, i am, anyway. . .

how'd the belt go, and how's it running and can you post those pics and report? hope all went well.

in any case, we know from redbug's saga, that his is not an interference engine, although the carnage was not pretty.


//bc

[trooperbc]

Originally Posted by redbug

Looks OK for 11 years and 208k miles.

absolutely...and can easily see why you didn't want to part with it.

No sludge due to regular oil changes at 3k miles, thats 69 oil changes, 414 quarts, 69 filters....

yeah...looking o-k-a-y-y-y.

and then BAM what a picture redbug, what a bummer. damn.

but at least now you know you don't have an interference engine -- cause if that broken valve stem was the result of interference, all the valve stems would have shown the affects of slamming up against their respective cylinders at some 50 times per second. but, YIKES.

so what did happened? Valve stems do break. and obviously yu had some issues. . .

Notice Crack in cylinder wall below....

and it looks like the corresponding area on the head perhaps has a crack, too. (or maybe that's just the contact-area transfer?) that crack didn’t ‘just’ happen, that’s been there a while, i’d say, from the residue that seems to be there.

anyway, you’d think that excessive heat in this area would have something to do with the failure, and the cracked cylinder, and maybe cracked head, all either contributed or were the result.

Why? Did the piston hit it first? Unusual for an intake valve to fail under normal usage. Valve seat looked good..... Other intake valve does not seem to be bent....

And no, the piston did not hit it first, imo. If that were the case all the other valves would be bent. Your doing, what, 3000 rpm when this happened? That’s like 50 revolutions per second. even immediate shut down, you’re hitting every valve with every cylinder if it’s an interference issue. (and if i remember correctly, you actually drove it quite a while with the engine running poorly, and before the failure.)

What condition was that valve’s valve guide? How did it compare with the others?
Have you found out any other ‘interesting’ things upon further inspection?

Btw, what about the valve spring? A broken valve spring will give the loss of power and other running conditions you had, iirc, just prior to the valve going. The valve spring may very well look intact until you disengage it. And the keeper? Everything was still intact, presumably, before the event?

A broken spring might, i said might allow the valve to drop enough to hit the cylinder. And then that could have broken the stem instead of bending it. That’s possible. And that could explain why only the one valve was affected. This would be different than the interference- non-intereference engine aspects ---

Well, You’ve got it all apart now; it’d be easy enough to see if that spring is broken and then test that theory out.

It’d be useful to know if others are beginning to experience this type of failure as their 3.2L v6’s turn over 200,000 miles. I haven’t seen such; has anybody else?

The cracked cylinder is what really gets me. I just keep coming back to heat…and/or lubrication. Tell us again, will you, weren’t you experiencing some running problems prior to this fateful trip?

Sad part is, looks like your engine is toast. So what do you think you’ll do now?

Sorry it wasn’t better news.

[surferfletch]

You're arguing theory and semantics. If you break a timing belt on a non-interference engine, you can damage internals.

[Ramblin Fever]

TrooperBC - Chances are we may never know EXACTLY what happened to cause this; we can speculate all we want, but the truth is thing's just happen.

I'm in that same - what the hell happend - mode with my '85 Toyota 22RE p/up, aside from being 21yrs old and having close to 300k miles - it's in, or it WAS in superb condition, engine wise, as it has a new engine with only 60k miles on it, already had a headgasket failure on it in February, then has developed this consistent oil leak that we now feel is coming from the crankshaft area, the engine sounds more and more like a can of marbles, it keeps blowing out spark plugs, but still runs like a bat out of he$$.

When the headgasket went, the truck did get warm, but did not overheat; and after the repair, we thought all was good for a while, it's obviously not, as we've dug in and replaced the crankshaft seal, that's not what was leaking - and the noise, we've discovered, is the crankshaft itself.

We were going to keep it around as a back-up farm/land truck, but I think we'll just part it out - it's a shame though, as we put over $3k in the last year on it, as it was running really good.

You just never know, sometimes sh$$ happens ya know.

It would be nice if Redbug could fix his rig - it's still in REALLY nice shape, but it does get expensive to do so, and then there's still no guarantee.

[kenc195]

Ok, here is the outcome you all have been waiting for. New belt is installed and she runs smoother and quieter then ever. Keep in mind though it ran fine when I shut it off then never restarted. I think it sheared the belt teeth on the restart. But I did cank it a lot during the troubleshooting. Lucky as hell or truly non interference..... you be the judge.

Here are some tips
1. Keep track of the bolt / nut locations when taking the timing belt covers off. I did not and it took forever getting them right. I still have one that I cant figure out the location.

2. Start putting the belt on from the crankshaft then work clockwise without the tensioner bolted on. I did not and it took forever getting it on untill I did

3. Normal tools except for the 24mm deep socket to remove the nut from the crankshaft. A 3 jaw puller is also a handy item. Most everything is 12mm, 14mm or 17mm socket and 4 inch extension.

I did not follow instructions very well and it was 108 outside (I live in Phoenix) so I took lots of water breaks. Probably could have done it in about 5 hours otherwise.

[kenc195]

Oh ya, the belt $57.00 from Napa, tensioner from delaer $87.00, water pump $65.00 Napa and misc was about $25.00. I did not change idler pullies because them ran smooth and were $170.00 and $320.00 respectfully

[surferfletch]

Originally Posted by kenc195

1. Keep track of the bolt / nut locations when taking the timing belt covers off. I did not and it took forever getting them right. I still have one that I cant figure out the location.

When I tore it down for my timing belt replacement, I took a Sharpie out the and numbered every bolt that came out. Looks a little strange, but I got them all back in! I also have about 15 pictures of the engine bay from a digital camera on my hard drive in case I can't figure how to put something back together.

[trooperbc]

Originally Posted by kenc195

. . .1. Keep track of the bolt / nut locations when taking the timing belt covers off. I did not and it took forever getting them right. I still have one that I cant figure out the location.

it's not the one that also goes to the water pump, too, is it? [lower left looking at the water pump? (iirc and i may not, and can't access my notes right now) ]


thanks for the followup. must have been nasty trying to get all those gears' timing marks lined up with the sweat running in your eyes. yikes.

glad it all worked out.



//bc

[Gizmo42]

kenc195

Glad to hear you got it all back together and running right again. Luckily I shouldnt have to tackle mine for quite a while, the guy I bought it from just replaced all that stuff the week before I bought it (was one of the main reasons I bought it).

redbug

That just sucks. I'm with the others in not being able to tell how that happened. Your rodeo looks to be in really nice shape too. If it were mine and I had another vehicle to drive for a while (or buy a cheap beater for a while) I would look for a used low(er) mileage engine to drop in and just make a weekends project out of it. Just put all your new parts and known good accessories on the newer engine.

And kenc just to help cool you off, here is a pic I took today while wheeling. It was around 30 deg with 60-70 mph winds. Around 12,700 ft above sea level. Yes, that is snow from last night.

[redbug]

Ok,

Final word... I believe TrooperBC wins the prize... I decided to look at the head and examine the keepers on the valve that failed.... Looked in the head and noticed that the valve spring was not there... I looked around on the block and found the keeper holder and the springs. I had turned the head upside down while wrestling it out... The springs seems to have fatigued.... Looks like 4000 running hours is about all you will get out of this engine, which I believe was a good value. Considering that most engines were/are designed for 100k or about 2000 running hours.

Also, I babied this engine, rarely going over 3k when shifting.... It was not abused.



I don't believe the crack in the cylinder was there before the failure. If it was there I surely would have sucked in some antifreeze... I believe the presure from the valve smacking against the head probably caused the crack...

Interference or not? Now I am leaning toward non-interference... Facts are I did not spin my belt... So, I guess I will trust Gates documentation stating that the 1995 rodeo is not on their list of interference engines....

Future plans? Well, when I get over the shock I figure I have 3 options now.

1) Get a used engine.
2) Scrap it.
3) Part it out on ebay.

1) No rust on the body, but the frame is a little rusty... Previous vehicle was a 1985 Trooper, 145k, frame rusted out....

2) Always an option.

3) A lot of work and not sure if its worth my time....

Best decision right now is no decision....

[surferfletch]

Wow! That's one reason I like my 8V VW - less stuff to break!
Gotta concede to trooperbc in this case!

[Ramblin Fever]

Oh man, that's a bummer.

It's too bad that these engines are supposedly only good for 200k miles, I'm hoping to get at least 300k out of mine - just put a lot into it maintenance wise.

I've read on another board, that while it's ok to baby an engine, it's actually not good to baby it all the time as when one needs to go above the normal rpm it can cause damage - whether or not this is really true, who knows.

I too have a habit of babying my engine, but it does see 4k rpm's at least 3 times a month.

[2000izusu]

wow i guess a spring can only go up and down so much. but i do think you got you moneys worth (like you said)
as far as the future goes if you can find a reasonably junk yard motor that might be a good option. where else can you get a vehicle that you know so well for the price of a used motor? if you put it in yourself you are even more ahead. on the other hand, after this many years driving that rodeo, i could also understand wanting a change just because you are tired of the vehicle.
if you go the used motor route keep us posted. love the pics!