Heaven and Hell

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by dirtydx

say you were born 4,000 years ago(or even 10 years ago), somewhere in Africa. Would your beliefs have included these mathematical theories then? if the theories weren't available then, what greater relevance would they apply to a life experience now?

You said "prove it" as if you did not believe in the afore-mentioned age of the universe, so I gave you a bit of proof.

Originally Posted by dirtydx

someone told me the big bang was just a rumor. I was told life actually began about 30 years ago, when the "matrix" was first booted up, we are actually aliens, playing a game of complicated chess. some people might even believe that.

This person has then proved their ignorance. The theory of a Big Bang is predicted by the Theory of General Relativity; perhaps the most exhaustively tested and affirmed theory in all of science. It is no rumor my friend. To believe otherwise would require denying the laws of physics.

Originally Posted by dirtydx

I don't believe that any one being has more "power" over another. I think that every part goes together as a whole. such as, smart people can't be defined without the presence of stupidity. Everyone's experience has their plusses and minuses, the perfect human is only an idea in everyones head, makes them move forward with hope.

I don't see where this is going...

Originally Posted by dirtydx

most people look at celebrities like they have the perfect existence... but celebrities have no public freedom, and live with the fact that every move they make is monitored and judged by millions. Like Tom Cruise's fist pump, couch jump... what a freakin' idiot.

I guess I agree?

Originally Posted by dirtydx

at the same time I look at a chickadee, as it quickly flies between the rungs of a porch railing... and I think, even though its lifespan is short, maybe it's perception of time is different than ours.

It probably is, it's all about relativity my friend, "When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity." -Albert Einstein

Originally Posted by dirtydx

as for having a soul, i don't know. there are positive and negatives that every human designs and live by. you might think you've mastered throwing out all your negatives, and be living as a happy person.. but the way people then percieve you might make them angry.

I don't see how having a soul relates the rest of your statement, so I have no comment here.

Originally Posted by dirtydx

like this religous aunt I have, she thinks lately I've pulled myself together, found what makes me happy, closer to god.. something like that.. now what I think of, was that she thought of me as a fuck-up before, bitch.

Sounds like she wants the best for you, sorry you have to deal with someone who cares for you so much, she must be an evil, vile person.

Originally Posted by dirtydx

so you might be reincarnated as a worm, a frog, a panda, a deer, a mosquito, the stupid kid down the street.... but their existences really aren't any better or worse than your own, just a juggling of characteristics. you are a part of life, and that is the gift.

time n' space goes on forever, so whats 1 month as a worm?

This gets back to my point relating to the soul. In order to be reincarnated there must be something about your being which exists apart from the four dimensional world which we experience, if not, you would certainly cease to exist upon death, and the concept of reincarnation is void. For reincarnation to be a valid concept, something of you must be put into this new creature. For this to happen, something outside our space/time dimensions must have influenced such events, many would refer to this individual as God. Therefore, I contend that anyone who believes in reincarnation must cede to the existence of a higher power. It is only the logical conclusion to this course of reasoning.

[MARS]

"When I die, fuck it! I wanna go to hell,
I'm just a piece of shit, it ain't hard to fuckin' tell
It don't make since going to heaven with the goodie goodies
Dressed in white, I like black Timbs and black hoodies
God will probably have me on some real strict shit
No sleeping all day, no getting my dick licked
Hanging with the goodie goodies lounging in paradise
Fuck that shit, I rather pop guns and shoot dice"!

The Notorious B.I.G. 1994 "Ready to Die"

I wonder if God kept Biggie's word on that verse?

[psychopathicdude]

if so, that sucks BIGGIE-time for him.

This thread reminds me of the Megadeth song "Dread and the Fugitive Mind" ....in it he says :
"What if I do get caught? What if there is no judgement?
If I'm right I lose nothing, If you're right I lose it all.
I ought to get caught, because I'm doing something wicked.
I'm guilty, haunted by my fears and the only consequences are Dread and the Fugitive Mind."

What I see in this, is evidence to the theory of "Heaven and Hell are right here on earth" Regardless of his eternal resting place, the person in this song is in agony over what they've done. They know full well that their evil actions demand an accounting. They are paying for their sins now, and will for all eternity.
In reality, its far worse. On God's scales of absolute justice, if you break any part of the law, you are as guilty as breaking all of it. The law was not given to save us, but to show us that we need a savior. The hypothetical "good person that is wrongfully sent to hell" scenario is just that....hypothetical. Our measure of a good person is far more forgiving than God's. We would no doubt be willing to overlook certain mistakes, personality traits and attitudes in light of the "bigger picture". On God's scales of absolute justice, if you break any part of the law, you are as guilty as breaking all of it.

Now, if anyone chooses to accept the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made for him, he can be free from the guilt and fear. Knowing that Christ's payment for sin covers all transgressions past, present and future. I believe that freedom and peace right-here-right-now is a far more relevant point of discussion than eternity.

[dirtydx]

ct91rs,

if you'd give up with your Einstein quotes/theories we might have something worth arguing about. Einstein was extremely capable of thinking inside the lines, he was one person out of millions. His words and work applied to how he saw the world, the average human(example: myself) is clueless to the original meaning. Until you develop you're own work, and I start seeing biographies about you on A&E, please use your own ideas.

I could just as easily quote Salvador Dali, Timothy Leary, Aldous Huxley, Terence McKenna, or many others who were genious at thinking outside the lines. (but then again, the average human is clueless to many of their perceptions).

I'll never create a mathematical theory in my lifespan, so that must mean my beliefs/thoughts are insignificant, and I can only be a sheep? You said the matrix theory is ignorance? you don't think a computer program is capable of designing a world where math works? where traces of a big bang were left? where discoveries can be made using what's available? I don't call that ignorance what-so-ever, more like imagination and creativity.

/\ not that I believe any of that /\ . But what I'm trying to explain, is that science is the pole opposite of imagination, and neither one is more important or believable than the other, and you can only recognize one through the comparison of another.

Originally Posted by ct91rs

This gets back to my point relating to the soul. In order to be reincarnated there must be something about your being which exists apart from the four dimensional world which we experience, if not, you would certainly cease to exist upon death, and the concept of reincarnation is void. For reincarnation to be a valid concept, something of you must be put into this new creature. For this to happen, something outside our space/time dimensions must have influenced such events, many would refer to this individual as God. Therefore, I contend that anyone who believes in reincarnation must cede to the existence of a higher power. It is only the logical conclusion to this course of reasoning.

I agree. except I think that our memories, our selves only exist here in this lifespan, after that they're gone, except to those who remember us. Life is what we make it, but under situations. Our soul is only the light of consciousness, and it doesn't belong to God or Satan.

[Pavlo]

This is such a wierd topic to discuss now that I think about it. As everyone will find out the answer but nobody will ever be able to share it with anybody alive. You might just reach whatever you desired and hoped for once you die, but its just one of millions of answers to this question.
Lets just hope for the best. If my thoughts about this are right I am good, if they are wrong then at least I will have a fun life while alive.

[BigBL87]

Originally Posted by GForce957

^ they dont even think the universe is 45 billion let alone earth. More like 4.6 billion

That's kinda of a blanket statement. There are two views of creation, Old Earth and New Earth. New Earth takes the word "day", as it is translated in Genesis, as a literal 24 hour day. The word, however, just simply means a passage of time. Old Earth creation, the view i tend to identify with, believes the word "day" is figurative and believes that the scientific age of the Universe is correct.

Another point, don't remember who it was by, was that a man who never did anything wrong but never believed in Jesus would go to hell. If the man did not sin, then he would not need the grace of the sacrifice of Jesus to enter heaven. However, in the practical world, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so we all need God's grace. With the murderer/rapist, if he fell from his faith and did not return to it before he died, then I believe he will go to hell. If, however, he accepts the Lord as is savior (again I suppose) and repents from his sins, then he will be saved.

As for the dilemma of those that never had the chance to learn about Jesus, I grappled with this question myself. After reading the Bible and meditating on it, I came to the belief that those who do not have the chance to learn about Jesus will be judge by the laws of the tribe/society in which they live, as well as the laws of morality which i believe are engrained in every person.

I'd gladly input on any other questions from an educated Christian's perspective.

[Sianus]

Deep! Im wiccan...and believe that if you are good in life you die and go to the summer lands (kind of like heaven) once you're there you can choose to stay or go back to earth. Some of your dreams are snippets of past memories to help you on the right path back to the summer lands. If you're bad, you go back so that you can right your wrongs...there is no such thing as hell...but you will get treated as you treated others, which is kind of a hell on earth

[driftinggrifter2]

I personally don't have any specific religious beliefs as far as a deity. But i do beleif in a supreme being. I also think that you could be a atheist or a buddhist or whatever and you could still get to "heaven" as long as your not full of hate and that you are more known for doing good things in your life. Now if you are full of hate or do selfish things for any reason then you will do good and good things shall happen

[psychopathicdude]

Chocolate is heaven, but cavities are hell.....so what does that make toothpaste?

[driftinggrifter2]

Originally Posted by psychopathicdude

Chocolate is heaven, but cavities are hell.....so what does that make toothpaste?

Your saviour

[blacksol28]

I think that Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis is probably one of the best apologetics I have read. His argument starts by explaining how we can know that there is a being "above" us. He then follows that argument to how we can know that this being is God, and how we know that chiristianity is true. Then he goes on to explain some doctrine and why we can trust it. Its worth reading if you are interested in intelectual not to "preachy" answers to some questions about chirstianity.

[BigBL87]

Originally Posted by blacksol28

I think that Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis is probably one of the best apologetics I have read. His argument starts by explaining how we can know that there is a being "above" us. He then follows that argument to how we can know that this being is God, and how we know that chiristianity is true. Then he goes on to explain some doctrine and why we can trust it. Its worth reading if you are interested in intelectual not to "preachy" answers to some questions about chirstianity.

I've been trying to get my hands on a copy of Mere Christianity and will hopefully get to reading it this semester. I've heard nothing but good things from people who read the book. Right now, I'm reading a book for my Basic Christian Beliefs class called Avoiding Jesus by Michael Green, its a pretty good book as well.

[driftinggrifter2]

Me personaly I like Anne Rice's idea of heaven and hell and the whole god vs satan thing in her book Memnoch the Devil. I know it's fiction and all that but it is a whole diffrent and original twist from what you're used to hearing.

[psychopathicdude]

God exists outside Heaven or Earth, He created them both. He said that Heaven and Earth will both pass away, but that He will remain, and we with Him. Heaven is not a physical location, at least not here on Earth. It is where God is, so if we are in Heaven, we are with God. But God is also living inside us in the Holy Spirit. So when we are with God, I think we are also in Heaven. Confused? me too.

[blacksol28]

Originally Posted by BigBL87

I've been trying to get my hands on a copy of Mere Christianity and will hopefully get to reading it this semester. I've heard nothing but good things from people who read the book. Right now, I'm reading a book for my Basic Christian Beliefs class called Avoiding Jesus by Michael Green, its a pretty good book as well.

Yeah man its a great book, it proves that contrary to what athiest's think you can think and be a christian at the same time.