Yikes! What happened to gas?

[Kurtdg19]

Just paid 2.69/gal. for 87 yesterday. It was 2.90/gal 93 for my bike. I will just kiss my sports car goodbye for the time being.

http://wjz.com/seenon/local_story_224095326.html


'By contrast, Americans pay about $2.55 a gallon and Britons pay $6.24.

Iraqis also pay much less for a gallon of regular gasoline than in nearby countries such as Iran (38 cents), Jordan ($1.89) and Syria ($1.74).'

And what does Iraq pay..... 5cents/gal. Sure there are problems that influence the price, but damn! Oil crisis my ass.

[jon@af]

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

Just paid 2.69/gal. for 87 yesterday. It was 2.90/gal 93 for my bike. I will just kiss my sports car goodbye for the time being.

http://wjz.com/seenon/local_story_224095326.html


'By contrast, Americans pay about $2.55 a gallon and Britons pay $6.24.

Iraqis also pay much less for a gallon of regular gasoline than in nearby countries such as Iran (38 cents), Jordan ($1.89) and Syria ($1.74).'

And what does Iraq pay..... 5cents/gal. Sure there are problems that influence the price, but damn! Oil crisis my ass.

5 cents a gallon eh? Fucking ridiculous. I live an hour and a half from home when I go to school. Once it hits the 3/gallon mark I'm not going ANYWHERE. Including my house. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay what little money I have as a college student while I'm already being gouged for tuition money just so I can drive the car I rightfully own.

[2strokebloke]

When it hits $3 a gallon I'll be worried. Then I'll buy a $7 gas siphon from walmart.

Also, notice that the price of motor oil, the price of lamp oil/parafin, the price of petroleum jelly - is all pretty much the same as it was one year, two years, three years ago? Gas prices HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COST OF PRODUCTION. Executives from oil companies sit around and think "Hey, how high can we make prices before people will stop buying this crap?" one says "I'll bet you four-quadrillion dollars, and a large portion of several African countries that you can't sell it for $4.50 a gallon!" and prices sky rocket. I should work for an oil company. I'm good at pulling large numbers out of my ass without having to give any reason as to why the numbers are so large.

[tenguzero]

Right? It's nice to know that the Big Oil companies are making money for themselves and (I assume) their shareholders. After all, it's only on the backs of the average worker. I mean, who the hell buys the gas for the farmer's tractor? Where does the money come from to pay for fueling up school buses to get kids to and from school? What are towns forced to do to absorb the higher cost of construction work? Screw Big Oil and screw the people who condone the BS being forced on us because of sheer greed. Unfortunately we don't all make enough money to allow us to piss our way merrily along. I make $12 an hour, and after rent, utilities, school loans, food, and car insurance, I have precious little left for other pursuits. The last thing I like doing is watching $30 a week burn out the back of my car -- and I drive an Accord! Woe to those of you stuck with something more demanding.

[ifidie2nite]

Alright guys let me shed some light on your doomsday forecasting. I have been following Oil and production and everything else ever since people were predicting the end of the world because of $40 oil. Now heres the scoop:

Problems:
1. China and India's demand are shortening the amount of available spare capacity, thus about a $10 a barrel fear factor.
2. Oil companies haven't done much exploration and production because back when oil was $10-20/barrel, they made little to no profits.
3. Much of the easier oil is already found and being drilled.
4. The U.S. is far too reliant on importing gasoline and diesel along with oil that we haven't built a domestic refinery since the '70's. Thus, older refineries are struggling to keep up with increasing demand. Venezuela is expected to help with 3 new refineries, but this only further increases imports.

Solutions:
1. OPEC is working on a number of projects that should add about 600,000 barrels a day spare capacity as of spring 2006.
2. Oil companies such as BP are starting some not-so-easy projects that should come online about the same time, spurring more spare produciton. One of BP's rigs alone, the ThunderHorse, will produce an extra 250,000 barrels a day.
3. Pretty much every major oil company is beginning production in new oil areas like the Caspian Sea and Kazakhstan. But it wont be till a few years before the real oil flow from these regions come online.
4. We still have non-conventional oil. Heavy oil in Venezuela and other countries, along with Oil sands in Alberta, Canada will help increase production, but these sources are more likely to just match demand and the decreases from mature fields.

Along with newer production, America will have to find a liquid alternative to gasoline and diesel at some point. ANWR needs to be unlocked to atleast add 1mbd of extra oil. Plus, the EIA predicts a maximum production of conventional oil, or "peak" will be around 2030. The best alternative that I can find is Ethanol. Hydrogen is just some space age idea that should be left alone for about 100 years.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by ifidie2nite

The best alternative that I can find is Ethanol. Hydrogen is just some space age idea that should be left alone for about 100 years.

Ethanol AND Biodiesel I agree with the hydrogen flop though.

[2strokebloke]

The funny thing about hydrogen and fuel cells is that the idea had been around (figuratively speaking) forever, I think Massey-Fergusson (the tractor company) had an experimental fuel cell tractor back in the early sixties - and we're still not much further along now than we were then.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by 2strokebloke

The funny thing about hydrogen and fuel cells is that the idea had been around (figuratively speaking) forever, I think Massey-Fergusson (the tractor company) had an experimental fuel cell tractor back in the early sixties - and we're still not much further along now than we were then.

Here it is:

1959 Allis Chalmers Fuel Cell Tractor

"Departing from the lightweight 80 horsepower IH HT 340 above, this 20 horsepower tractor weighed 5270 pounds, and certainly required no supplementary weight. Here was power of a completely different type. The AC fuel cell tractor used an AC D-12 tractor chassis loaded with 1008 individual fuel cells, fueled by a mixture of gasses, but predominantly propane, which in turn created a current flow. This was channeled through to an Allis Chalmers 20 hp DC electric motor to propel the tractor. Each fuel cell was about one quarter of an inch thick, 12 inches square, and produced approximately one volt of output. In unison, the 1008 fuel cells made an output of about 15KW.

Unconventional, to say the least!

Using the controller at the operator’s left, the four banks of fuel cells could be connected in series or in parallel, thus varying the voltage reaching the DC motor, much like a throttle. Reverse was simply a matter of reversing the polarity of the current through the controller with the crank-like handle. AC was excited by their research, noting that their tractor was twice as efficient as others of the period, the power was derived from no moving parts, it produced no emissions, and ‘ran without a whisper’. Futuristic indeed, and the recent resurgence in interest in fuel cell technology, along with environmental concerns, could still make a fuel cell tractor a reality. This tractor is now in the Smithsonian Institute."

Go here for some pics and some utterly thrilling stuff on experimental farm tractors:
http://www.ytmag.com/articles/artint207.htm

[tenguzero]

See, I suppose I'm one of those who sees a definite potential in Hydrogen-based fuel cells. The technology is proven AND highly effective -- it's just a matter of devising: A. an effective storage method, and B. a functional, economical production method. That being said, the only real leash holding the technology back then, is simply productivity issues -- ie. smaller/better/cheaper. All the technology is there, and the methods are sound -- we're just waiting on the inevitability of the smaller/better/cheaper technology mantra to deliver it to us, and at the rate we're going, I can see that happening long before any of these ridiculous "increased oil production" plans even begin to yield results. The incredibly short-sighted Alaskan drilling plan (aka. big handouts to big oil interests) isn't expected to begin yielding oil at a useful rate until about 2015 -- a decade from now is a LONG time for development in technology terms.

http://www.dri.edu/Projects/Energy/
http://www.clean-air.org/

And for those into BioDiesel and Ethanol:
http://wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,62439,00.html

And of course some objective analysis:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8404234/


A decade was all it took to put a man on the moon, make personal computers economically and functionally viable for the average home and usher in the age of the internet, and go from the discussion and observation of stem-cells into actually culturing and utilizing the things in real world applications. Hell, a decade ago people merely brushed aside the potential for electric engines, and now here we are with several major car companies looking at long waiting lists for vehicles based around the things.

[ifidie2nite]

In response to tenguzero:

Yea I think hydrogen is a cool idea i really do. Its just I hate the idea of fuel cells putting car part manufacturers, petroleum workers, and others out of jobs.

I mean, oil rig workers could be given jobs at biomass refineries, and car part manufacturers would just need to modify their fuel injectors and a few other parts. Plus, fuel cells really dont provide much power right now.

[MBTN]

Like others have already mentioned, china and india are developing and require a lot of oil. USA is finally catching up to (most of) the rest of the world as far as costs. And guess what? It's going to keep rising, and we are all going to continue putting gas in our cars. And guess what else? Sales for trucks/SUVs are UP this past year in the states. I read it in Autoweek IIRC.

[tenguzero]

Yea I think hydrogen is a cool idea i really do. Its just I hate the idea of fuel cells putting car part manufacturers, petroleum workers, and others out of jobs.

Indeed, the concern is justified, although I should think most of those people would have little trouble diversifying and learning the new technology (an important ability to have in the 21st century workforce, as those who AREN'T able to learn, adapt, and apply at the faster rate of today's and tomorrow's economy will inevitably fall behind.) Car part manufacturers would just begin to incorporate new products into their existing lines, petroleum workers should have little trouble re-applying their skilled-trade abilities if they so chose, etc. And keep in mind that it's not like this would happen over night, like you wake up one day and suddenly everything is Hydrogen. It'll undoubtedly take decades to phase out oil-based fuels -- plenty of time for the older workers who might be set in their ways to finish out their jobs, as the new generations seem to have little trouble adopting new things far quicker.

Like others have already mentioned, china and india are developing and require a lot of oil. USA is finally catching up to (most of) the rest of the world as far as costs. And guess what? It's going to keep rising, and we are all going to continue putting gas in our cars. And guess what else? Sales for trucks/SUVs are UP this past year in the states. I read it in Autoweek IIRC.

We'll indeed keep putting gas in our cars, but as I noted above, the goal is to begin as soon as possible in phasing out the NEED to put petroleum-based fuel in them. Prices will continue to go up, and we can only hope that will be the necessary impetus to keep increasing the drive towards alternative fuels (plus there's that whole taking better care of our earth thing )

SUV sales were up last year, and they had been up as of the beginning of this year, with April being the first month of lost sales (to the tune of 15 percent!)
http://money.cnn.com/2004/05/17/pf/autos/suvs_gas/

Keep in mind the article above was also published mid May, before the real ass-kicking we've been seeing in the last couple months in the gas dept. Recent hybrid offerings like Ford's Escape Hybrid should go a ways towards combatting that, and there will always be a certain market for large vehicles (the people that actually NEED them) but I can only see the downtrend continuing. I'll be very surprised if, by the end of this year, SUV sales growth HASN'T fallen into the red. And that's fine by me -- it just means one less 5-foot tall mom in a gargantuan tank hogging parking spots, rolling the things on the highway, destroying the other vehicle she hits because her cellphone is taking up her concentration, and blocking my view of oncoming traffic when I'm trying to pull out into the thoroughfare. Oooo, I get this nice warm feeling when I entertain the possibility of less SUV's.

[Steel]

Call me... whatever you want, But i don't like the idea of carting around an extremely explosive gas at high pressure as fuel. I'd like to stick with the nonflammable liquid. Easier to store, safer to drive with.

Fact is, Hydrogen doesnt store very well. Being the smallest atom, tends to make it leak. Thorugh everything. That and production of hydrogen is very costly and inefficient. The MOST efficent way is to extract it from petroleum... but that doesnt help the cause, eh?

[SexyCivicSiChica]

my god i so agree it's MESSED UPO I HATE driving now!!!!

[DVS LT1]

As much as I've missed driving my Z since last November I'm glad she's not on the road this summer, cause I'd be paying insurance just to have her sit in a garage ready for me to drive her a few hours each week, what with gas prices the way they are... its nuts.

And there's all this hype now in Alberta how the oil sands are likely the second biggest oil deposit in the entire world and will bring billions and gillions of dollars in revenue... to who? The fuckers who invest in the companies, thats who. You'd think at least domestically here in Canada we'd be lucky enough, no, ENTITLED to cheap gas if its flowing like crazy... maybe make a few bucks on you yank fellas down south (lol) and charge an arm and a leg to all the other foreign countries who are raping us now. But no - we'll be paying up the ass as the petrol companies clean up.

I think the governments are bloody stupid - expropriate that oil land or better yet don't sell it off in the first place and use ALL that revenue to fix healthcare, the deficit, etc... these morons in parliament are excited about a few million bucks they get in taxes or admin fees - that's nothing! Get smart and invest, take it back, keep it in the first place so there's money left in my federal pension when I retire!!!!!