What about the grief of the children?

[taranaki]

Back to the footwear....

It is custom in most muslim communities to remove one's shoes when visiting a family member or friends house.

Could it be just possible that these 'insurgents' were just some poor bastard family that got in the way of the Marines? Does anyone see any evidence of weapons on the video clip?Apart from the one that the Marine points at the guy's head and fires,twice?

Yogs,I fail to see how you can put any interpretation on this video that isn't sufficient to convict that Marine of murder.

[YogsVR4]

I don't see anything either. If that is all there is, then he should be conviceted.

[fredjacksonsan]

That video was in no way a comprehensive view of what happened, any more than a 2 second video of two cars crashing shows everything in relation to that accident. There are numerous other things that are occurring. Just the video? Yes, it does show that one able person shot another that was lying down. It does not show what dangers may have been in that room, the condition of the person that was shot, weapons, wounds, or anything else. I admit I've only seen the video twice and may have missed things. But to go solely on the video I think would be wrong in this case.

[Murco]

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz

I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

I would love to meet this bastard in person. The guy was unarmed and wounded, what possible threat can he be? These are the type of people that give the other marines a bad name.

Ok... You were shot in the face less than 24 hours ago, you've been in a combat zone for 8 days with little sleep, everyone you've seen in that time NOT wearing a US uniform is a potential killer (and you have to find out before you engage them), your platoon-mate was just killed 15 miutes ago by a dead-body laying on a grenade, you've had dozens of "dead or dying" suddenly sit up and try to kill you over the past 3 months, and a grenade on this body would kill everyone in the room - you've seen it happen a few times. I may have handled it differently but, I nor you are there.
The "kid killing the President" example is completely different as his actions would be deliberate and premeditated.
The anti-Bush crowd is so willing to jump on this story that has so many unanswered questions (was the guy really alive?) and portray this Marine, and the administration as evil.
They completely ignore the Hassan murder that was reported the same day and the killers are getting a free pass as their heinous act was justified. This after Al Jazeera (the terrorist network) even refused to air video of her murder!

[TRD2000]

i love it... now the media are terrorists if they air the wrong thing.

that must be why they get shot at so much.

[Murco]

Originally Posted by aloharocky

The "innocent civilians" were vaporized. Did I feel bad about it? NO. It's just the way it is. Shit happens. Save the touchy-feely stuff for campus. It doesn't work in the real world.

Ok, Aloha, I'm as gung-ho as a former combat Marine can be and your post made me cringe...

Originally Posted by aloharocky

The guy that reported this had better watch his back, that's for sure. Man, I wish they would start the draft, and we could say good-bye to a lot of the whiners.

Cringed again...

Originally Posted by taranaki

America lost that war as well, didn't they?

Korea was never settled, technically you could say it was a draw.

[Raz_Kaz]

Murco,
1.Read over everything I have posted, I am not condemming the marine for doing what he did. I'm more enraged at what the others are saying about the situation.
2.You have to look at what was going on to understand why he did it...you also have to look into all other cases where unarmed civilians were killed to make sure none of the marines are cmmiting war crimes for shits and giggles.
3. Al Jazeera is no more a terrorist media as Fox News is a pro-Bush propoganda bullshit making machine.

[Murco]

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz

When the rest of the world hears shit like this and other instances like the Abu Gharib prison incident, the integrity of the US soldiers gets shot to hell..

Mostly by reporters who don't show both sides of the situation. Yes, the abu-gharib photo-session was humiliating (what idiot decided to do that for pictures?!) but this same prison was the setting for other horrendous acts before.
In February 1998, 400 prisoners at Abu Gharaib prison were executed summarily. Two months later, 100 detainees from Radwaniyah Prison were buried alive in a pit in Ramadi province. These killings were supposed to "clean out" the prisons.
Our soldiers acts were stupid, but not deadly. Your drawing a conclusion from this "murder" and that stupidity is somewhat foolish....

[TRD2000]

that (if it occurred) was in 1998. I thought America was meant to be helping these people and ending these atrocities? not just changing the flag under which they were carried out.

also. Bush is all in favour of executions.

AND as long as you are drawing comparisons between those executions and the actions of the marines. It's important to remember that even in American culture and social values, which you would expect to be engrained in marines. Execution is allowable, when sentanced by the state, however torture and humiliation are not. How you can say sure we can kill people but must treat them humanely at home, but away from home we can abuse them is beyond me!

ALSO for america to say another country is wrong for it's laws is a bit strange considering to many countries Americas laws are flawed. I AM NOT saying i think what you SAY happened in Iraq was right or fair. But i don't think the fact that 7% of executions in america are innocent people is fair either. Nor do i agree with many other laws. But I don't suggest that people could be held accountable to another countries laws when their actions are carried out in a country that allows it. OR that they should be necessarily reinstated for the fact that what they did was perfectly legal in another country! if they were in prison its quite conceivable they were there for a reason.

[Murco]

Originally Posted by TRD2000

i love it... now the media are terrorists if they air the wrong thing.

Al-jazeera has been a media outlet for the Jihadist long before this war. You can't say they show both sides of an issue, they never have. I don't know if it's fear of Jihadist reprisal or blind islamism but they have never reported any pro-American stories and I'm personally amazed that we haven't even attempted to block the signals from their sattelites just to minimize the "call to arms"... That is one of the first steps when engaging an enemy, control the media...
Here come the comments about Fox....

Originally Posted by TRD2000

I thought America was meant to be helping these people and ending these atrocities? not just changing the flag under which they were carried out.

I can't believe you are equating anonymous pictures of some guys nutsacks, as perverse as it is, with mass-murders! Photographed stupidity is not an atrocity...

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz

Murco,
1.Read over everything I have posted, I am not condemming the marine for doing what he did. I'm more enraged at what the others are saying about the situation..

The "others" are Marines who are facing the same situation as the shooter every day. His expression was probably more of support for is fellow Marine who now faces a trial, not the act itself. Also, was he quoted accurately?

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz

2.You have to look at what was going on to understand why he did it...you also have to look into all other cases where unarmed civilians were killed to make sure none of the marines are commiting war crimes for shits and giggles..

Marines (and I've trained 100's of them) are not murderous criminals, they are professional people whos goal is to accomplish missions while inflicting as little harm to everyone they can. They kill when they must and are well trained about just when that point is.

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz

3. Al Jazeera is no more a terrorist media as Fox News is a pro-Bush propoganda bullshit making machine.

Others in this forum have asserted that Fox is a right-wing newsgroup, I felt it was appropriate to point out Al-jizeera's political position.

[Raz_Kaz]

ok ok, let's all settle down and lok over this one more time.

1.US marines stormed the mosque killing 10 men and wounding five. Those 5 were treated and the marines left them there.
2. The next day, marines went into the mosque and founf those same 5 men were there.....so under Geneva Conventions, which states clearly that, "protection of wounded combatants once they are out of action is an absolute requirement."
3. It has been said in the first reports that man didn't seem to be armed or threatening in any way...also no weapons were found in the mosque.

[TRD2000]

Murco, the fact that you know there will be comments reflects the fact that you aknowlege the similarities.

[TRD2000]

Originally Posted by Murco

Al-jazeera has been a media outlet for the Jihadist long before this war. You can't say they show both sides of an issue, they never have. I don't know if it's fear of Jihadist reprisal or blind islamism but they have never reported any pro-American stories and I'm personally amazed that we haven't even attempted to block the signals from their sattelites just to minimize the "call to arms"... That is one of the first steps when engaging an enemy, control the media...
Here come the comments about Fox.... .

Murco, the fact that you know there will be comments reflects the fact that you aknowlege the similarities.

Originally Posted by Murco

I can't believe you are equating anonymous pictures of some guys nutsacks, as perverse as it is, with mass-murders! Photographed stupidity is not an atrocity...

where is the line drawn between murder and state sponsored execution? eg. Bush killed 153 as governor, and more as President... was that murder? the standards are multiplying.....

Originally Posted by Murco

The "others" are Marines who are facing the same situation as the shooter every day. His expression was probably more of support for is fellow Marine who now faces a trial, not the act itself. Also, was he quoted accurately?

was georgie boy quoted correctly when he said there were WMD ready for deployment in Iraq? that seargent in particular was a sick fuck... some of the soldiers sounded like they offered support and sympathy of the situation (which is good)... but when they are outranked on the ground by a sick fuck with stripes....

[Murco]

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz

ok ok, let's all settle down and lok over this one more time.

1.US marines stormed the mosque killing 10 men and wounding five. Those 5 were treated and the marines left them there.
2. The next day, marines went into the mosque and founf those same 5 men were there.....so under Geneva Conventions, which states clearly that, "protection of wounded combatants once they are out of action is an absolute requirement."
3. It has been said in the first reports that man didn't seem to be armed or threatening in any way...also no weapons were found in the mosque.

2-"Once they are out of action" - It wasn't a certainty that they were out of action... And if they aren't member of a formal army, wear uniforms, answer to a central authority, or follow the international laws of warfare I don't really see them as combatants protected under Geneva standards. They were thug criminals...
3-"Didn't seem to be armed or threatening" - Keyword here, seem..

[TRD2000]

actually i'd say "didn't" was fairly important...

likke didn't have weapons, didn't do anything but breath, didn't have the ability to get away.

it really doesn't matter what you see, they are protected at LEAST as enemy combatants, and SHOULD be protected as POW's under the geoneva convention. WHICH i might add is a voluntary set of standards for the signiataries to adhere to, NOT a standard that must be followed by non-member nations. much like the Kyoto agreement, or the Hague war crimes tribunal which because the US refuses to aknowlege can't touch bush for war crimes. AS SUCH... regardless of whether the people they are fighting in iraq follow the geoneva conventions, they must be treated with the respect that the convention demands. As the US has declared "war on terror" and "war" on Iraq, these people are Prisoners of War, regardless of whether they are terrorists or Iraqi freedom fighters.

you are trying to justify the US's failure to adhere to international standards of human rights and treatment. These days they don't sign international rights agreements or anything that they might have to break later, unfortunately, they signed the geoneva convention, perhaps they were more humane then and didn't see where their nation was headed, and so now they make excuses not to follow it.