Media doesn't cover this do they!

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by DGB454

I have heard people get criticized for not supporting the troops and rightly so,

please explain why it is wrong to have your own opinion on whether or not the troops are being used wisely.Democracy is about having the right to free speech.How can you have democracy if your country's foreign policy is effectively off limits?

[replicant_008]

Dog bites man - not news
Man bites dog - hot news!

Human interest stories don't sell newspapers, or make you tune into the alphabet soup networks. Humans are inherently cynical beast with a macabre and morbid fascination with what is wrong...

Philsophically we are optimists - we believe good should happen in any case and that by focussing on the exceptions we are in effect making the world better. And if we don't hear about it then it's all good (that's how propaganda works).

The exercise of free speech and the unfettered ability to question policy and decision making by our elected officials is a fundamental part of a healthy democracy. Democracies generally work best where there is equality, equity and justice inherent in its citizens and the citizens of other nations that it interacts with.

Even in ancient Rome there was acknowledgement that there can be times where forthright action needs to be taken and absolute power given to someone to lead in a crisis. That's where we get the word 'dictator' from... initially it wasn't a bad thing - the senate temporarily relinquished its power to a leader to sort out a crisis.

Now the question is - if you exercise and protect democracy then you by definition cannot have a dictatorship. If you have a democracy then the robust review of decisions is pretty fundamental to the continued existence of democracy....

[lazysmurff]

Originally Posted by DGB454

I have heard people get criticized for not supporting the troops and rightly so

and what i dont get is, where does it say i have to support an erroneous war to support the troops? wouldnt wishing for them to stay at home with their families until they are actually NEEDED be the best support?

[Cbass]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

thats not patriotism magicrat, thats called nationalism. jingoistic nationalism at that.

Shhh, nobody uses that word anymore. It's patriotism now

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

and as for the anti american title, conduct your own experiment. go stand on the corner of a busy intersection, hold a sign that says something like "war is wrong" or some other pro peace slogan, and count the times you are called anti american.

ill actually provide you with the results of my own experiment. me and my friend stood on the corner, holding similar signs like "who would jesus bomb?" and "no war" and we were told we were:

not supporting our troops: 12 times
we were anti american: 7 times
going to hell: 1 time
(insert positive comment): 5 times

all in thirty minutes.

and the only tools of the propoganda machines are the people who believe it. the media can tell us whatever it wants. no one makes you believe anything.

You sir, have just made my day.

[lazysmurff]

Originally Posted by Cbass

You sir, have just made my day.

ill assume thats a good thing

[RedLightning]

Originally Posted by taranaki

please explain why it is wrong to have your own opinion on whether or not the troops are being used wisely.Democracy is about having the right to free speech.How can you have democracy if your country's foreign policy is effectively off limits?

to me supporting the troops, and supporting the idea of why they are there is 2 different things, its ok to not support the idea, thats great b/c they would be using the right to free speach, but to me not supporting the troops is like, calling them baby killers and murderers, or blaming them for the war which is wrong.

[lazysmurff]

to generalize all our troops as murders and baby killers is bad, but its just as bad to think of all of them as being the great heros we should all look up to.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

and what i dont get is, where does it say i have to support an erroneous war to support the troops? wouldnt wishing for them to stay at home with their families until they are actually NEEDED be the best support?

No arguement. As long as they are there though I think they still need our support and should not be ridiculed for being where they are ordered to go.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by taranaki

please explain why it is wrong to have your own opinion on whether or not the troops are being used wisely

.
It's not wrong to question the administrations decisions.

Democracy is about having the right to free speech.How can you have democracy if your country's foreign policy is effectively off limits?

The right to free speech also extends to those of us who criticize people that don't support our troops. (note : I didn't say people who don't support our administration.) Supporting the troops is different than supporting the war.

[Raz_Kaz]

I do support the troops who have been sent to Iraq without choice (somewhat) to fight a war that was initiated by lies. I feel sorry for them having to kill people, I feel sorry for their families who worry about them. But I do NOT support the admin

[Murray B.]

Originally Posted by taranaki

This article isn't news,it's spin.

How can it be spin if it is what is happening and there is no reason to believe that it is not? The "spin" is when military people are portrayed as having no other skills other than fighting.

I'm a civilian, have never been in the military, and have never really wanted to be. My folks and other close relatives were also never in the military. One of my grandfathers was in WW I and that is about it. He never talked about the war but I knew he did not like it much.

Now there is another conflict and some people are demonizing the military again. What for? It is not like they all got together and voted to go get shot at in some horrible desert, jungle, or whatever unpleasant place. The truth is that the politicians ordered the Joint Chiefs and they sent orders to everyone else. Anyone who has a problem with this conflict should take it up with the politicians.

The soldiers are just doing their duty to their country as their forefathers did. Don't kick them in the teeth for doing it.

Sorry for the tirade, shutting up now.

[RedLightning]

Originally Posted by Murray B.

How can it be spin if it is what is happening and there is no reason to believe that it is not? The "spin" is when military people are portrayed as having no other skills other than fighting.

I'm a civilian, have never been in the military, and have never really wanted to be. My folks and other close relatives were also never in the military. One of my grandfathers was in WW I and that is about it. He never talked about the war but I knew he did not like it much.

Now there is another conflict and some people are demonizing the military again. What for? It is not like they all got together and voted to go get shot at in some horrible desert, jungle, or whatever unpleasant place. The truth is that the politicians ordered the Joint Chiefs and they sent orders to everyone else. Anyone who has a problem with this conflict should take it up with the politicians.

The soldiers are just doing their duty to their country as their forefathers did. Don't kick them in the teeth for doing it.

Sorry for the tirade, shutting up now.

its spin to him if its good news and its from the U.S.

[lazysmurff]

Originally Posted by Murray B.

Now there is another conflict and some people are demonizing the military again. What for? It is not like they all got together and voted to go get shot at in some horrible desert, jungle, or whatever unpleasant place. The truth is that the politicians ordered the Joint Chiefs and they sent orders to everyone else. Anyone who has a problem with this conflict should take it up with the politicians.

sure, the soldiers didnt order the war, but they did effectively choose to go the whatever jungle, desert, or other unpleasant place to get shot. that's the job the signed up to do. its the military. its what they do.

now, noone is demonizing the military. Ive got two friends in Iraq, and they are both stand up guys, and i really couldnt say a bad thing about either one. but the fact of the matter is, news like this is being released and cheered for the purpose of balancing the news of what other service men are doing to the Iraqi's. It wouldnt be reported (stuff like this is what we are actually claiming to be in Iraq for) if it didnt have to balance something else out.

hence, spin

[DGB454]

The problem is that it's not reported except by military news.

[Murray B.]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

... they did effectively choose ... to get shot... its the military. its what they do.

Umm, well, unless things have changed a lot recently, the function of a soldier is to defend their nation without getting killed, if at all possible.

Of course many politicians agree with you and not with me. Apparently they feel that the LOWER pay for military occupations somehow makes up for the HIGHER risk of doing those jobs. This makes no sense whatsoever but senselessness has never prevented anyone from getting elected.

Teddy Roosevelt used to speak of a "big stick" with regards to foreign policy. His own personal "big stick" was a model 1895 Winchester in .405 calibre. There is little doubt that he meant U.S. military force when he was talking about the stick and foreign policy. There is also little doubt that it is the government that wields this stick. Therefore if the stick is used unwisely then take it up with the wielder and not the stick.