Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[searcherrr]

I have got the van in the garage tonight with the a/c. I hadn't been using it before cause my father doesn't like me working on things in there due to duration (lol). Kinda embarrassing to have to deal with stuff like this, but I haven't quite got myself straight since Katrina. Living with the folks again for this long after 10 years living on my own is a real shell shocker, but its allowed me to get to know my parents as adults too whereas before I only knew them from an 18-20 year old perspective when I didn't know myself and morals/values were a bit different than now. BUT THATS A WHOLE OTHER STORY....

In any case tonight is the night. Tonight I will know what tha hell with the van. Gonna put the other new new wires in there and compression test #5 (if not all) and report back. After this I'm gonna take it to an out of town shop that I trust and never let me down once to see where I go from there with the engine installer shop and possible Jasper for warranty. I hope I don't have to go there though. We'll see.

[searcherrr]

Well, I don't know how, but I spent 9pm - 5am in the garage last night doing everything but and everything with the van. I swear my personality is wonderful for catching things others miss, but sometimes I wish the ADD and procrastination parts would just walk away from me for good.

I checked the connectors to the alternator thoroughly. Just decided on a whim to do it again. I don't know what the 1 clip single wire is that goes to the alternator, but I took it apart and made it more snug. I didn't like how loose it seemed. I did the same with the main alternator connector to the regulator. I don't know if it will help at all.

I took extremely great care in handling, labeling, and routing the 2nd box of Autolite spark plug wires. This time ALL the clips are clipped down well and every one is nearly even 90 degrees and flush with the primary connections on the coils.

Every wire is labeled in multiple places for which cylinder. The routing this time I did different than before. I had really never worried about the plug wires touching hot things cause they are supposed to be able to take it, but I noticed how close (touching) the water hose to the water pump was to #5 wire and I rearranged how things were laid out.

I bought some wire spacers too (even says Ford on them) so I could route better. I went under the water pump hose and behind (to right of from front facing in) the intake plenum support that is just across from the alternator. I figured this would keep it away from the alternator and hopefully from sliding back/up to touching the water hose. I also put a spacer right off the coils to kinda pull #5 wire back from that hose too. Somehow I also managed to get a spacer in behind the alternator with a wrench and long flat head screwdriver (using them as artificial fingers).

I am happy with how it is all laid out now except the part where it rounds the front valve cover by the oil cap, though the cover is durable plastic and the hose lines the wires touch are for the power steering pump so I don't imagine either of these will ever get hot enough to damage the plug wires.

START UP ???? No. I am at the point now where I'm scared to. Seriously. I figured once I realized it was 5am that I'd quit there because if I started it up and waited for "full hot" and it didn't work right I might have a heart attack. I was going to do compression testing, but I realize now that the exhaust manifolds are so close to the plugs that I don't know how I'd get the wires off and plugs out without scorching myself. I think I am going to start it and if it does not cooperate I'm gonna just bring it over to my out of town trusted shop.

So.... START UP .... to come in a few moments. I went took a bath and eating breakfast (no sleep yet; 8:20 AM) and I'm getting ready to go let it run and then will determine if I need to bring it to the out of towner shop.

[searcherrr]

Nothing changed. It blows me away. I haven't a clue how to proceed. Everything that I can think of has been tried. New wires where the old ones seemed to be bad.... and it still runs like it wants to kill at idle and eats gas on the road. Doesn't make any damn sense.

I compression tested #5 and #6 and both came out to be able 158 psi. I got fed up after that, quit & then prepared it for delivery to my out of town trusted shop.

So, its at the 3rd shop in this grand debacle. These guys have never let me down, but I fear this one will break them. I'm expecting them to say they can't find anything wrong with it.

I gave them a 2 page synopsis on the history, whats been replaced, what hasn't been tried (of the oddest stuff too... even oscilloscope suggestions), etc.. and hopefully with that something will come out of all this.

At this point I have started to consider odd/strange things like EVAP clogging, fuel return line clogged, and whatever else bizarre.

I have however made a decision of the executive kind. This is the last shop visit and last attempt to fix this issue barring Jasper warranty service. After these steps I'll be throwing in the towel and looking for another vehicle to swap to or just parting out. It is a real shame that I'd have to give up a brand new engine and transmission and an array of other improvements which have made this vehicle like "NEW" again, but none of it is worth it with less than HALF the MPG I should be getting.

There is also the other option.... to drive it till it dies despite the horrible MPG. I guess I could do that and accept it for its flaws till it would croak.

What ya'll think? Don't feel like you can't share your opinion. I really want to know what ya'll would do after all this. Assuming that further investigation for repairs is no longer an option, how would you proceed at this point?

[searcherrr]

Why would the engine run right after wetting & moving the spark wires to 4,5,& 6 around? ..then shortly afterwards (assuming when the water had dried up) .... cylinder 5 misfire code.... made me think to replace spark wires... so I did..... still not running right.

What does that mean? Just that..... nothing else..... what does that mean? Anybody?

Out of town trusted shop doesn't want to fool with it. They want me to come pick it up. Is there ANYONE that does technical work anymore when it comes down to getting into the nitty gritty? I might've talked him into keeping it, but he says he has to discuss it with his "WIFE" (they both run the business). Ugggh.... this just keeps getting uglier.

[12Ounce]

"Cash for Clunkers"!

Sometimes the fight just gets to be OLD! Get yourself a nice new Mazda5 (for example) ... everything on it will work super for a few years and several thousand miles with great MPH ... after that you can have a new hobby (working on the Mazda!). You will never lose what you have already learned.

[searcherrr]

I can't afford to get on a note right now. Cash for Clunker-ville isn't an option, but believe me I have thought about it.

Check these out:

http://extreme-check-engine-light-co...isfiring-code/

http://www.scooterfocus.com/scooter_...hooting_2.html

If you read those links they are very informative and while the 2nd link is about scooters the principles are the same. Word search that 2nd link for the phrase "spray water" & read that whole paragraph.

The only things I did (as I tried to do as little as possible to limit possible changes/fixes) to make the engine run right just for a few blessed minutes was spray water, move #5 wire & listen/watch.

Coincidence of moving #5 wire and then seeing a misfire code on cylinder 5 may have got the best of me because replacing the wires didn't work.

That left me with this water thing. The WATER was the only other thing I did during the test and had to have something to do with the engine running right for a few minutes (5 - 10) and then running like crap with a misfire code present.

This "random misfire" or Misfire on all cylinders only sometimes as explained in the 1st link makes sense.

All the other times I have had theories they have lead me, a lot of the time, to correcting some mistake the shop did, yet correcting that mistake still didn't fix my overall big problem with the bad MPG...... BUT all the times I had theories I did not ever witness the engine running right except THE ONE TIME recently when I sprayed the water.

In other words: I bet I have a vacuum leak somewhere strange in the throttle body, its gasket, intake manifold, intake manifold gasket or the lower intake manifold gasket.... or the manifold(s) themselves cracked. The behavior is spot on with what I've read online.... and once again THIS IS THE ONLY TIME ONE OF MY THEORIES HAS HAD AN INSTANCE WHERE THE ENGINE RAN RIGHT FOR EVEN A FEW MINUTES!!!!! The leak must be so small its gotta be ridiculous.My other trusted shop basically didn't want to start a wild goose chase going behind my and the other shop's work chasing electrical gremlins while taking my wallet for a big ride. They are considerate like that.

So my theory is that everything is off: fuel pressure, o2's, mas, etc.. due to the vacuum leak and that the reason I don't have power at high speeds is too much air and not enough fuel. I also believe that this could actually influence the electrical system because after all, all of the measurements resort to voltages and if they are out of balance I'd think you'd get a mess...... especially if you go WOT.

So I talked to the shop today and they are going to do a smoke test. I assume this means they will pump the crankcase full of smoke and watch for leaks. I had tried something similar a while back, but it was pressurizing the crankcase with compressed air (only a lil of it) while watching smoke rise around the engine to see if it would move from rushing air. I wish I would've thought about funneling that smoke machine into the intake now, but honestly I'd rather experienced shop people do it. I'm just wondering now if smoke would even be able to seep out of a miniscule crack/leak wherever it is.

If the crack is in the intake manifold would JB Weld or Steel puddy suffice?

[searcherrr]

I'm kinda pissed. No official word on the smoke test other than the service manager/phone person saying that the techs didn't tell her anything. The part I'm pissed about is they said it wouldn't start now. I haven't been having any trouble starting it since the replacement of the computer or really at all except for hot starting when the computer was bad holding the injectors open. They say they haven't taken it apart or anything and just did the smoke test. I find it odd though that now it'd be giving starting problems with nothing but the smoke test done to it.

So its still over there now and I'm waiting to hear whats what. They are now thinking electrical. I don't get that though since my spraying water test fixed it for a lil while before.

[wiswind]

Maybe we got lucky and whatever was slightly bad.....is now a solid failure....which would be much easier to troubleshoot than something marginal or intermittent.

[searcherrr]

I hope so.

[searcherrr]

I've been calling them with no calls back. No progress. Bout to call in a couple minutes again.

Selectron - (or anyone else too) Is it possible that spraying of water around (theoretically) shorted, open or bad grounded circuits could cause the circuits/wires to ground properly momentarily to make the vehicle run right?

I ask this cause the only thing the shop has said is that its an electrical problem (a guess), but I'm still leaning towards a vacuum leak because of how the spray water got rid of the idle issue.

[searcherrr]

Call'em back - Basically (lol sarcastically/hysterically) it just sounds like they don't want to fool with it at all. I persisted about the "smoke test" and my intuition tells me they haven't even done that yet. Talked to the owner/tech/husband this time instead of the secretary/wife and he said the first smoke test didn't reveal anything, but that he wanted to try it in a different way again.... but my intuition tells me from the way he said it, that he hasn't even tested it at all in that way.

I don't really have any other options but to leave it there till they feel like they can get to it. I could bring it back home and start testing circuits or do the spray water test again and pull apart the intake once more.... but all of those ideas make me feel worn down like i'll just be doing them for nothing as usual.

See I don't know if its like this in other states, but this is typical Southern Louisiana bs... the wait at the shop etc... You either have something new and they do it quick or something old and they turn you away or make you wait eons.

[searcherrr]

Well, this is a very sad story isn't it?

I told them I had family coming into town next week (true) and that we needed to know if I could use the van or if we had to make other arrangements. That was Monday. The lady said Wednesday they should know something (thats today). I just called today and nothing. NO time spent on it at all.

Its like a nightmare that refuses to end. I got tired of it and gave it to someone fresh to it and they don't want it either. I guess they just see something 14 years old and a waste of time. I just don't get it though cause they know I put a new engine and tranny in it. Anyway, they say they'll call me today to let me know to take it back or not, but I haven't received a call from them once anyway so I don't expect one.

Its just seems like they've wanted to wait me out from the beginning. I just can't believe it sitting for 2.5 weeks and not even gazed at.

If I go get it today or tomorrow I'll fiddle with it again myself at some point, but right now I don't have a lot of time to keep absorbing myself with this project. What I really need is a knowledgeable tech at my house for a few days to help me isolate this issue. I'm starting to think about putting an ad out in craigslist to see if I can get some hands on help from someone.

[searcherrr]

Called shop and shot straight with them "If you are waiting me out I can just come get it since thats just a waste of time." - They swear they aren't wasting my time and the owner says he's busy from 7am - 8pm everyday with business and that they have just been balls to the wall busy. I guess I screwed up when I dropped it off by saying I could wait a month. I thought that'd make'em happy to do it somewhat soon within 2 weeks, but apparently you can't offer up something like that without it being taken literally. They claim they'll get to it next week and sounded sincere.

Talked to the owner this time. He seemed to be sincere (as I'd thought about this place before) and had it in mind what he wanted to do. He says he did a smoke test when the engine was hot before and wants to do a test with it cold. Cold makes more sense to me as the metals won't be expanded yet. He also said electrical testing will take a while so he wanted to be able to look at it when he had time to give to it. I told my Father today that I'm gonna give it a deadline of next Wednesday the 2nd. I think thats more than ample even for a "balls to the wall" busy shop.

[Selectron]

Just read the last four pages again to refresh my memory, and if there's anything in there by way of a clue then I'd say it's likely to be the spraying of the water improving the idle. I doubt if that was an electrical effect that you saw though; more likely the water has temporarily sealed a vacuum leak.

Plain old water is actually a pretty poor conductor, unless you add something to it - salts, I believe - to improve the conductivity. As such, even if you sprayed water onto a bad ground, it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference on a 12V circuit. Spraying plain water in the vicinity of the spark plug leads is a different matter though because they carry such a high voltage, and if they have poor or damaged insulation then dampness will easily encourage them to 'leak', electrically speaking, but dampness would only make matters worse - it wouldn't account for the improvement that you saw on that one occasion.

So that's why I'm thinking maybe you've inadvertently discovered a vacuum leak. It's not something which I know much about, but if you want to spray test again then I believe you should add a few drops of liquid soap - washing up liquid - which acts as a surfactant and reduces the surface tension of the water, so if droplets land on a leak then instead of sitting as individual droplets, they will instead spread out, merge, and conform to the shape of the leak and temporarily seal it. That's about the limit of my knowledge though. You might want to take a look at the Ford CD and see if they recommend a procedure for tracing a leak by using a vacuum gauge. If the leak (if there is even a leak) is on the rear bank then I assume you'd be much hampered by limited access.

I think that would be worth putting some time into, but if that proved fruitless then I really wouldn't know what to suggest you might try next.

[searcherrr]

Shop has run a hot and cold smoke vac test and found nothing.

Been there now 5 weeks. :|

He thinks its electrical and is waiting for the right block of time to be available to test it.

Selectron/Anyone - Do you think I ruined the O2 sensors by soaking them overnight in electrical parts cleaner? Did this a while back. Also, what do you think are the chances of the O2 sensors still being good past an engine overheating and known glowing red cat on the rear bank?

I don't understand why the smoke test didn't show anything though. I'm wondering if its possible water could get through and not smoke or if the whole crankcase wasn't pressurized with the smoke maybe the smoke didn't reach the right area or enough pressure to force out.

Is it possible the heads aren't grounded to the block and maybe the water momentarily grounded the head(s) to the block causing it to run better and then run misfiring?