Overheating 2001

[CMFan]

additional notes

I was looking around, and sometime between now and the time we changed the coolant (before winter) someone had stuck a piece of cardboard in the front end. (its the part next to the fog laps I found this on the web you see the top grill, then the license plate area, then the section below) the cardboard was on only the passenger side of it and it wasn't just a little piece whoever did it stuffed a medium piece in there, it took a bit to work it out of there from the outside.

We checked the coolant and it wasn't really down all that much as it was yesterday (about half), this morning it was only a tad (as in tick) low), we bled it again to be safe. But still having problems overheating, when you sit idle and it goes up and you bled it, it goes down....

But thought I would add the additional not.

[rkvons]

Originally Posted by CMFan

Except wouldn't that have been found in the pressure test they did (that I mentioned in the first post)?

They didn't use your cap during a system pressure test, did they?

[rkvons]

Okay,

In your first post, you said,

Originally Posted by CMFan

Changed the Thermostate (more then once, one was defective)

Hey, maybe second one is bad.

You also said,

Originally Posted by CMFan

When the temp goes up you lose heat, when it comes down you get heat.

Theory - When you loose heat, coolant is not flowing. When you get heat, coolant is flowing. Thermostat controls this.

I would take the thermostat out and see what happens. Really.

Also,

"when it got warm enough for the thermostat to open the top hose callapsed, after it cooled down the hose went back to normal."

You need a new radiator cap. (Credit goes to andretti for that one. I tried to imagine what would cause that and couldn't think of it.)

Get the proper one and make sure the area where it mounts is clean before putting it in. Also, after you take out the thermostat, I would start the car in the driveway and let it run until it either gets hotter than seems safe, or the fans kick on. During this time, I would watch for leaks.

[BNaylor]

Is the radiator cap really bad? The radiator cap is rated at 15 psi. And that threshold is easy to overcome if the engine is overheating or you have unwanted pressure in the cooling system from the cylinders due to a bad head gasket or possibly LIM gaskets. On the GM 60 degree V6 engines 3100/3400 when you see excess coolant overflow in to the reservoir or out the reservoir vent bad head gaskets is a common issue.

[CMFan]

Originally Posted by BNaylor

Is the radiator cap really bad?
Doesn't look to be, I mean we could get a new one, but this one doesn't look bad at all, actually pretty good shape.

Thanks. We are taking it to a dealers garage they are doing diagnostics on it, pressure test, combustion test, testing the fans, bleeding the system again, testing the codes, etc.

I will let you know what they tell us, were not sure what sear did, twice they had the car in there for "testing" and yet they couldn't give a definitive of whats wrong with it, or close to it. except what I have already posted.

I really hate when a garage won't let you in there when they are doing testing, I realize there are dangers to being in there, but still I can't say that sears helped my thoughts of not liking it. Before I didn't have a problem, but after that with sears not real comfortable. I just deal lol.

[tblake]

Originally Posted by rkvons

They didn't use your cap during a system pressure test, did they?

Most coolant system pressure testers include an adapter that you put the cap on and pump up pressure. You basically read the pressure rating on the cap, pump it up to that and see if it holds and then you pump more and see if the cap will vent that excess pressure. If it failes either test it needs to be replaced.

If it were my car I'd replace it anyways GM caps arent the greatest plus its cheaper that paying someone to diagnose a bad cap.

[CMFan]

Took it to the dealer garage (okay never bought anything there but anyway) here is what we found out, the cap was in good shape. Okay enough of the good news.

They ran the tests and found that it needs new heads and head gasket and of course if you need that you need a new intake as well. They said we could do it that way, or go a cheaper route and find another engine for it. We are looking for that engine getting the prices and comparing the two directions. Any advice?

Also we asked in looking for an engine to fit a 3.1 V6 2001 Pontiac Grand prix, if the motor had to be strictly for that year and make, or if any 3.1 V6 would work. .. One person said it had to be strictly for a pontiac grand prix because of the year and applications. Another said no that there were others [engines] that would fit it. and this is what he gave me as the others.

2000-02 Century, Grand Prix, Regal, or Malibu .. or 2000 Lumina
He said there might be some wiring differences but shouldn't be to much of a problem. Anything sound right to you folks?

Also I found two engines, one is $750.00 + 100.00 core (refunded with exchange), it has 104,000 miles ran good when it was brought in, 30 day warrenty.
The other $900.00 and it has 100,000 miles on it.

Seem reasonable?

I am seriously about to go

[tblake]

No, I'd just pull the old engine apart first. Check the heads and block for cracks and warps. If they check out, replace the head gaskets.

It makes no sence to me to replace a perfect running motor that just needs head gaskets. Not to mention if you tear it apart and then find out it is toast, you can always replace it.

Sounds like the dealer is trying to take you for a ride. May I ask, do you have the repair order? It should list on it exactly what they did for diagnosis.

Let us know what it says.

Are you sure you aren't willing to buy a 5.00 stant radiator cap first? It just doesnt make sence to me how bad head gaskets would cause a radiator hose to collapse. Usually when head gaskets fail you get extremly high pressure and bubbles in the cooling system because combustion pressure is higher than coolant pressure.

[tblake]

And $500.00+ for a used 3100 with 100k miles on it is a little spendy. You can find used ones on craigslist for about half that. No gurentees on them though. Or you could find a wrecked car with a good 3100, buy it, use the motor and part the rest out.

[CMFan]

tblake Asked:

No, I'd just pull the old engine apart first. Check the heads and block for cracks and warps. If they check out, replace the head gaskets.
It makes no sence to me to replace a perfect running motor that just needs head gaskets. Not to mention if you tear it apart and then find out it is toast, you can always replace it.
Except I don't have a garage to just pull it and check it and put it back, or pull it and wait and get the other motor, right now (just for now) it's the only vehical I have and I have a heart patient that lives with me, If we got the new motor then switched them I have been told by those who have done this that it wouldn't take that long, but to just pull it check it and find that it is toast would take longer. Orginially we figured just change the gaskets (head and intake) and all would be fine, but if the heads are warped....

Sounds like the dealer is trying to take you for a ride. May I ask, do you have the repair order? It should list on it exactly what they did for diagnosis.
The dealer never offered an engine in its place, or to put one in, gave us a couple of suggestions on where to get one, but never offered to do the job. They said they could do it, but that it would be cheaper if we had someone who could do it which we do know several.

Here is what the order says.... I know they before getting paid had a paper with alot hand written on the back and it was a long list of what they did, but I don't have that, I have the paper that just give the labor, which says...

Temp Gauge is going into red, and can hear it gurgle,
Can feel power cutting down,
Checked over found head gaskets leaking,
Engine Would need dissasambled and checked may need heads or need a used engine.

Are you sure you aren't willing to buy a 5.00 stant radiator cap first? It just doesnt make sence to me how bad head gaskets would cause a radiator hose to collapse. Usually when head gaskets fail you get extremly high pressure and bubbles in the cooling system because combustion pressure is higher than coolant pressure.
Here in is the problem the hose doesn't always collapse it's like that time the radiator went down half but before and after that never did it again, the hose collaspes only some of the time not all of the time.. I can get a new cap but I can tell you around here it's more then five bucks for it. Apparently during their test the hose didn't collapse. Got me its tempermental car what can I say lol.

[tblake]

Hmmm. Yeah a used motor might be a good idea. Pulling the motor would probably be about the same amount of work as pulling the heads. I guess I just assumed you may want to try and save yourself some money by replacing your own head gaskets. If you do decide to pull the heads and find that one is cracked or warped, 3100 heads are pretty easy to come by. On the other hand, you may want to check with Ed Morads Parts company for a used motor. They deal mainly with 3800's, but I'd be willing to bet they have 3100's to sell you to.

http://www.moradpartscompany.com/

[richtazz]

I would suspect a thermostat that is not opening completely. The water pump is drawing coolant from the radiator faster than the t-stat opening is allowing it to return. This would explain both the running hot and the collapsing upper hose.

[CMFan]

As soon as the weather warms up (hopefully over easter weekend when its suppost to be around 70) we can take a look at it further. It's either too wet or to cold to be do this without a garage. Thanks.

I am still on the look out for any other idea's as well, until we know for sure.

[rkvons]

Originally Posted by richtazz

I would suspect a thermostat that is not opening completely. The water pump is drawing coolant from the radiator faster than the t-stat opening is allowing it to return. This would explain both the running hot and the collapsing upper hose.

No offense, but his doesn't make sense. Where does the water go after it leaves the water pump if it cannot go through the t-stat?
What makes sense to me is, as the engine is running, the coolant is heating up and expanding. Once it reaches a certain pressure, it is released into the overflow container through the radiator cap. After the car fans kick on, or the vehicle starts moving, the water cools and contracts. If the radiator cap is defective and will not allow coolant to go back in from the overflow tank, a hose will collapse and there will be no more flow of coolant until it starts heating up again. It's kinda like that experiment you've probably seen where you heat up some water in a can and then put a cap on it and let it cool. The whole can is crushed by atmospheric pressure.

[CMFan]

I can say this, there is no spots on the ground (even did the put a clean paper or box under the front end and see), also nothing out the tail pipe.

Okay I can check the cap out again, they did pressure tests on it (or so they all told me, ie sears and the other garage) The hose doesn't collaspe all the time, just some times.
When we did a fan jump (ie from the battery) the fans kicked on. They seem to be working both of them.

On this car when it starts to overheat (as it is a v6) it will kick down to 3 cyc, then over to the other 3 until it cools enough to kick back up to 6. If this made sense (my descript).

We can also remove the T-Stat and check and see if its defective, it would be only the (lets see the orginial, one bought defective, this current one) third one on there. If I need another one I am going to start swearing.

I do not relish trying the head gaskets if the last garage was correct. Nor do I relish trying to change a motor out, again no garage and even in 70 degree weather its still going to be damp on the ground. That and the lowest I could find was about $500.00 lower then 166000 miles that mine has on it. Of that amount I don't have. Top all that off with when the Garage said it was a leaking head gasket they didn't specify which one.

I could take it too one more Garage to be tested (they let you stand there I hear) they guy is said by more then 3 people of which one knows him personally that he knows Grand Prix like the back of his hand. Problem is getting into him he is busy, and I am afraid of what he would fine.

I remember the days of non computerized cars, when they were so much easier to fix. Oh The good ole days.

Okay anymore thoughts, questions, help. So far much appreciated for what I have gotten, and hopefully will get.