Motor Build

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by eric1h

NOOOOOOOoooooooooo, say it aint so? Are these Panoz cursed lately?

Were you running the "stock Panoz oil pan?

Did panoz do anything to the pans to add more baffling?

Eric, the stock Panoz pan for the 5.0 is a Canton pan that has gated vertical baffles surrounding the pick up, a windage tray and a crank scraper. A reasonably effective setup for a conventional wet sump. (i.e. unless you are going to swinging pickups etc).

Kel.

[eric1h]

Originally Posted by NZGTRA17

Eric, the stock Panoz pan for the 5.0 is a Canton pan that has gated vertical baffles surrounding the pick up, a windage tray and a crank scraper. A reasonably effective setup for a conventional wet sump. (i.e. unless you are going to swinging pickups etc).

Kel.

Kel that was actually my point, i figured Panoz put some nice precautions in these motors to prevent damage and wasn't sure if when the motor was built he used a different pan to enhance the "bling factor".


My 4.6L pan was a frankenstein looking pan, looked like a hakced up stock, but never even looked inside when i sold it to see what they did.

I need to find a swinging pickup for my LS1, know anywhere that sells them? :-D

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by eric1h

Kel that was actually my point, i figured Panoz put some nice precautions in these motors to prevent damage and wasn't sure if when the motor was built he used a different pan to enhance the "bling factor".


My 4.6L pan was a frankenstein looking pan, looked like a hakced up stock, but never even looked inside when i sold it to see what they did.

I need to find a swinging pickup for my LS1, know anywhere that sells them? :-D

Yes, they are commercially sold over here but for Ford & Holden engines Eric, not LS1's that I am aware of. They are used for a class of car that must run a wet sump.

I would skip this evolution anyway (swinging pickups) and go straight to dry sump. Anything else is really a compromise.

[eric1h]

Originally Posted by NZGTRA17

Yes, they are commercially sold over here but for Ford & Holden engines Eric, not LS1's that I am aware of. They are used for a class of car that must run a wet sump.

I would skip this evolution anyway (swinging pickups) and go straight to dry sump. Anything else is really a compromise.

Doesn't the holden have an Lsx motor in it?

But yeah I am looking into a dry sump kit... But trying to do as many other things as possible until that time comes.

4 point baffled/trap door pan, crank scraper... already have the accusump.

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by eric1h

Doesn't the holden have an Lsx motor in it?

But yeah I am looking into a dry sump kit... But trying to do as many other things as possible until that time comes.

4 point baffled/trap door pan, crank scraper... already have the accusump.

Yes the Commodore does run the LS engine but the V8 Touring car class has to run the Holden cast iron blocked engine as there is no late model Ford push rod V8 to enable a degree of parity. The Holdens run a 308 cube engine and the Ford Falcons run a 302. This is the class that I got the pics of the split 302 from. Hoping not to have some of my own any time soon................

[PanozDuke]

The smart thing Tom did was not to try to restart it after he felt the belt go.

The damper was a new Fluidampr (zero balance), the belt looked like new in pre race inspection and the tensioner and pulleys were all fine. There were no unusual noises when the motor was cranked in the paddock after the belt was replaced. It fired for a few seconds and was immediately shut off when the dampner wobble was noticed. The odd thing was the inability to break the dampner bolt loose with an 18 inch breaker bar and a four foot cheater.

If the crank is broken, it is might be forward of the timing set or it wouldn't have started and run for those couple of seconds. That would make one think it is the dampner, but the front seal was leaking at this point and when looking at the back of the dampner, when it was wiggled, the entire dampner wiggled as a unit including the snout into the seal and front cover. The only visible damage to the dampner was some finish scrapped off where it rubbed the timing pointer from the wobble. Since it started and ran briefly, the timing must be pretty close. I'm thinking that the play is between the snout of the crank and the inside of the dampner or the crank is broken at a significant angle, forward of the number 1 main so that the front cover is pressing it together so the timing gear and dampner still move with the crank. Either guess is hard to figure given the lack of load on the crank snout and the dampner.

As Tom said only a teardown will resolve the mystery. May be it's the dreaded muffler bearing.

Mike

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by PanozDuke

The smart thing Tom did was not to try to restart it after he felt the belt go.

The damper was a new Fluidampr (zero balance), the belt looked like new in pre race inspection and the tensioner and pulleys were all fine. There were no unusual noises when the motor was cranked in the paddock after the belt was replaced. It fired for a few seconds and was immediately shut off when the dampner wobble was noticed. The odd thing was the inability to break the dampner bolt loose with an 18 inch breaker bar and a four foot cheater.

If the crank is broken, it is might be forward of the timing set or it wouldn't have started and run for those couple of seconds. That would make one think it is the dampner, but the front seal was leaking at this point and when looking at the back of the dampner, when it was wiggled, the entire dampner wiggled as a unit including the snout into the seal and front cover. The only visible damage to the dampner was some finish scrapped off where it rubbed the timing pointer from the wobble. Since it started and ran briefly, the timing must be pretty close. I'm thinking that the play is between the snout of the crank and the inside of the dampner or the crank is broken at a significant angle, forward of the number 1 main so that the front cover is pressing it together so the timing gear and dampner still move with the crank. Either guess is hard to figure given the lack of load on the crank snout and the dampner.

As Tom said only a teardown will resolve the mystery. May be it's the dreaded muffler bearing.

Mike

Mike, I have seen race engines with cranks broken in the first web start up and run but with a significant knock and the damper wobbling as described. Depends on the break pattern and if the two parts of the crank "key together" and drive. Probably not what you wanted to hear.

This type of breakage is quite common in some Chev 383 aftermarket cranks and also in some Holden stroker cranks. Most of the broken ones that I have seen have been cast cranks that have been revved in race conditions above 6,000 rpm.

[ASPMANN]

Tom,

I was there and saw it that sucks. I just emailed Steve wondering what happened.
I left because I knew Garys guys were not happy campers.

Jim

[Cobrafang]

Ok bottom of motor is apart. The first piston throw cracked about 1/2 way up toward the rod bearing. I sent eric the pictures. I appears that there was no other damage. The first main bearing was trashed there is a picture of that as well. I am having them double check everything to be sure. But I must have had some divine help on this one.

[eric1h]

made me sad just posting them!!

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Cobrafang

Ok bottom of motor is apart. The first piston throw cracked about 1/2 way up toward the rod bearing. I sent eric the pictures. I appears that there was no other damage. The first main bearing was trashed there is a picture of that as well. I am having them double check everything to be sure. But I must have had some divine help on this one.

What has the supplier had to say about the failure? The break looks like it is related to material spec / surface finish. There are areas of the throw that look very poorly finished - especially compared to Eagles glossy pictures of their forged items!!

Is the crank clearly marked as an Eagle item with their brand logo and part numbers?

[eric1h]

yeah i doesnt look like any eagle product I've ever seen...

Was the journal that cracked the same one they welded on?


Seems like it saw a lot of heat!


I'd venture to say that the crank was warped and under serious load the metal fatigued and cracked. Just a guess, any chance you can take some better quality pics of the whole crank(all the way around where it cracked?)

[eric1h]

Is this the same crank? did the shop who installed it do some serious work/"polishing"/balancing?

Looks good here


A little less refined here...

[Panoz26]

Originally Posted by Cobrafang

Ok NOW THE REST of the story.

After not having enough time to really dyno tune the carb and chasing the right jetting with old school techniques we got it very drivable and felt really good. We were taking all precautions to be conservative given that we did not have any dyno time.

So the car was doing very well and I loved the extra power. I turned a personal best time of 2:34.3 at Sebring during a 8 lap race Friday night. Before my best time was 2:42 with the stock motor.

Saturday morning in the first race after about 5 laps of an 7 lap race the motor quit on me. I thought I had just thrown the serp belt. Because the only indication something weird was going on was the steering became rough and the motor quit...

After checking the car over we found that the dampner was wiggling. So me thinks the forged crank let go. I never rev'd the motor over 6 once we felt it was broke in.

I will let everyone know what we find out when it gets torn apart. Devin I feel you buddy.

More to follow.

v/r
Tom

OMG - Tom, so sorry to hear/see this.... If I can offer a conversation of sorrow, feel free to give me a call. After ripping apart the entire motor to scraps on mine, I also think the new HV Oil Pump gave out too - it was locked tight when I pulled it off the engine - had to open it up to move the gears.... so, hell, could be 6 different reasons mine gave way... oil pan, detonation, oil pump, junk motor, cracked block and just plain ole luck..

[Cobrafang]

Originally Posted by eric1h

Is this the same crank? did the shop who installed it do some serious work/"polishing"/balancing?

Looks good here


A little less refined here...

Yes those are the pictures of the same crank. The shop did do some polishing/prep work. The crank came internally balanced so they did some minor work I certainly would not call it "serious".

I will try to get some better pictures with my REAL camera sometime this week.

I have not heard back yet from Keith Craft yet. I expect I will today.

Thanks for all the dialogue.