Long Tube Header Install

[jmimac351]

Just glancing at it without looking at mine I think I just need a rod end and some steering shaft. Plus weld a tab on to mount the lower rod end.

I get to weld!

edit: I just looked at mine and I think I have close to the same amount of clearance that you do even though the steering shaft is mounted differently. My steering shaft is a straight shot from the firewall the to rack. The shaft has ~6" of clearance from the #8 cylinder primary centerline to the shaft. The shaft passes down by the collector of the shorty header. The further forward you go the more clearance there is. Mine has a universal joint right at the firewall whereas yours has the shaft coming out of the firewall and then using a joint further down to make the turn to the rack. I think the advantage to yours is clearance when using shorty headers as I have very little clearance there since mine makes a straight line from the firewall to the rack. With the long tubes I don't think either makes a difference given that the primaries go sideways off the head. Like yours I will have to move the remote filter mount.

I'm glad you shared this as "what to do about headers" was something making me delay doing something. Thanks Jerry.

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Blue Streak 21

PM sent with pics. Thanks for offering to post them.

Jerry,
a couple of things you may want to do now that you have the longtubes in. The wiring you have going down the frame above the longtubes and secured with plastic tiewraps needs to be heatwrapped to prevent insulation damage/arcing.

I had this same issue after fitting the custom headers that I made (melted the tiewraps off while running in the shed). What you are likely to find is that if you dont do this the tiewraps will melt off and the wiring will get damaged. This is more of an issue when the car is stationery rather than out on the track.

Kel.

[Gatorac]

Originally Posted by jmimac351

Just glancing at it without looking at mine I think I just need a rod end and some steering shaft. Plus weld a tab on to mount the lower rod end.

I get to weld!

edit: I just looked at mine and I think I have close to the same amount of clearance that you do even though the steering shaft is mounted differently. My steering shaft is a straight shot from the firewall the to rack. The shaft has ~6" of clearance from the #8 cylinder primary centerline to the shaft. The shaft passes down by the collector of the shorty header. The further forward you go the more clearance there is. Mine has a universal joint right at the firewall whereas yours has the shaft coming out of the firewall and then using a joint further down to make the turn to the rack. I think the advantage to yours is clearance when using shorty headers as I have very little clearance there since mine makes a straight line from the firewall to the rack. With the long tubes I don't think either makes a difference given that the primaries go sideways off the head. Like yours I will have to move the remote filter mount.

I'm glad you shared this as "what to do about headers" was something making me delay doing something. Thanks Jerry.

Suck up.

[jmimac351]

Jim, the pain train is coming.... Wooo-Woooo!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsqjM9AEqlU

[Blue Streak 21]

Originally Posted by NZGTRA17

Jerry,
a couple of things you may want to do now that you have the longtubes in. The wiring you have going down the frame above the longtubes and secured with plastic tiewraps needs to be heatwrapped to prevent insulation damage/arcing.

I had this same issue after fitting the custom headers that I made (melted the tiewraps off while running in the shed). What you are likely to find is that if you dont do this the tiewraps will melt off and the wiring will get damaged. This is more of an issue when the car is stationery rather than out on the track.

Kel.

Thanks Kel. Great suggestion. I had not thought of the intense heat that will impinge directly on those tie wraps when the headers are glowing red hot. I will get some heat wrap and take care of that this weekend.

I have relocated the clutch cable to get it further away from the headers, and moved some of the insulation to shield the cable and it's sheath from the heat.

This type of help is what makes this forum soooo stinkin' cool. Putting to use the lessons learned by each one of us without having to experience it first hand. Thanks again.

[Blue Streak 21]

Originally Posted by jmimac351

I'm glad you shared this as "what to do about headers" was something making me delay doing something. Thanks Jerry.

No problem. Glad to take this one for the team. You guys have lead the way for other modifications made to the cars, so it is about time I gambled on a change.

Jerry

[Blue Streak 21]

Took the car to the dyno yesterday. It made an additional 25 ft-lbs of torque for 375 at the rear wheels, and 10 HP for 325. The torque increase was huge between 3500 and 4500 RPM with the peak occuring at 3800. Peak HP is at 5400. The gains completely disappeared after 5000 RPMs, as the old graph overlays the new graph from 5000 up to 6000 RPM. I'm happy with the increase in torque, but I was hoping to see a flattening of the torque curve out to 5500 RPM. The engine ought to pull like a beast out of corners which is good for my home track. I'll just continue to shift at 5700 to maximize acceleration.

Pretty sure there is a restriction in the intake manifold. I'm using the Typhoon intake from Professional Products. It has been ported to match the Canfield heads. I was told that the long runners in the GT style intake manifold causes a stagnation in the runner at higher RPMs. The engine builder suggests an Edlebrock Pro Flow XT manifold to get better flow at higher RPMs.

[eric1h]

Nice, damn all these GT-RA's are starting to put out some power! Going to give my Lsx swap a run for the money! ;-)

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Blue Streak 21

Took the car to the dyno yesterday. It made an additional 25 ft-lbs of torque for 375 at the rear wheels, and 10 HP for 325. The torque increase was huge between 3500 and 4500 RPM with the peak occuring at 3800. Peak HP is at 5400. The gains completely disappeared after 5000 RPMs, as the old graph overlays the new graph from 5000 up to 6000 RPM. I'm happy with the increase in torque, but I was hoping to see a flattening of the torque curve out to 5500 RPM. The engine ought to pull like a beast out of corners which is good for my home track. I'll just continue to shift at 5700 to maximize acceleration.

Pretty sure there is a restriction in the intake manifold. I'm using the Typhoon intake from Professional Products. It has been ported to match the Canfield heads. I was told that the long runners in the GT style intake manifold causes a stagnation in the runner at higher RPMs. The engine builder suggests an Edlebrock Pro Flow XT manifold to get better flow at higher RPMs.

Jerry, thanks for posting. I am curious about the diameter and length (measure with a peice of string from the header plate just to the start of the merge collector) of the primarys on the GTS headers you have installed. Could you measure these and post the dimensions pse.

I am hoping to get my car on the dyno this coming Saturday so will also post these figures. I am expecting around 375hp/375tq at the wheels as the car was previously around 340/340 with the 5.0.

Jerry, what compression is your engine and what duration/lift is the cam?

Kel.

[Blue Streak 21]

Originally Posted by NZGTRA17

Jerry, thanks for posting. I am curious about the diameter and length (measure with a peice of string from the header plate just to the start of the merge collector) of the primarys on the GTS headers you have installed. Could you measure these and post the dimensions pse.

I am hoping to get my car on the dyno this coming Saturday so will also post these figures. I am expecting around 375hp/375tq at the wheels as the car was previously around 340/340 with the 5.0.

Jerry, what compression is your engine and what duration/lift is the cam?

Kel.

Kel;
I just closed up the trailer not 10 minutes ago, so getting tube lengths will have to wait until later in the week. Sorry. The tubes are 1 5/8" dia.

The engine is 10:1 compression so I can run pump gas. The cam is a Bullet custom grind with lift at .550" intake and exhaust, duration at 0.050" is 233 degrees intake and 237 degrees on exhaust. Lobe separation is 111 degrees.

Making 375 hp and torque will be real nice. You'll notice that kind of an increase right out of the box.

That's my goal for this motor. I figure that I can get another 25+ HP out of mine with a less restrictive intake. Just gotta get it to breath better after 5000 RPM. I'm looking at the Edlebrock Pro Flow XT. But that's the next mod for later this sumer.

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Blue Streak 21

Kel;
I just closed up the trailer not 10 minutes ago, so getting tube lengths will have to wait until later in the week. Sorry. The tubes are 1 5/8" dia.

The engine is 10:1 compression so I can run pump gas. The cam is a Bullet custom grind with lift at .550" intake and exhaust, duration at 0.050" is 233 degrees intake and 237 degrees on exhaust. Lobe separation is 111 degrees.

Making 375 hp and torque will be real nice. You'll notice that kind of an increase right out of the box.

That's my goal for this motor. I figure that I can get another 25+ HP out of mine with a less restrictive intake. Just gotta get it to breath better after 5000 RPM. I'm looking at the Edlebrock Pro Flow XT. But that's the next mod for later this sumer.

Thanks Jerry. When you measure the lengths, have a look and see if the headers are stepped in diameter, I suspect they may be. If they are can you provide initial and stepped diameters (i.e. may be say 1 5/8" up to 1 3/4").

Your power curve is interesting for the amount of cam you are running Jerry (my cam is a custom Comp Cams grind with .550/.565 lift and 224/232 @ .050 but with tighter lobe separation for running with carb).

I would be interested to see how your engine would perform with a carb setup. I suspect that you would also be around 375/375 with the likes of an Edelbrock performer RPM manifold and a good 650cfm carb. Had you considered swapping to carb? Other option would be an Edelbrock Victor manifold but this is likely to sacrifice some low end torque for top end hp and require higher running rpm.


Assume your Canfield heads are around 190cc port volume?

Kel.

[Blue Streak 21]

Originally Posted by NZGTRA17

Thanks Jerry. When you measure the lengths, have a look and see if the headers are stepped in diameter, I suspect they may be. If they are can you provide initial and stepped diameters (i.e. may be say 1 5/8" up to 1 3/4").

Your power curve is interesting for the amount of cam you are running Jerry (my cam is a custom Comp Cams grind with .550/.565 lift and 224/232 @ .050 but with tighter lobe separation for running with carb).

I would be interested to see how your engine would perform with a carb setup. I suspect that you would also be around 375/375 with the likes of an Edelbrock performer RPM manifold and a good 650cfm carb. Had you considered swapping to carb? Other option would be an Edelbrock Victor manifold but this is likely to sacrifice some low end torque for top end hp and require higher running rpm.


Assume your Canfield heads are around 190cc port volume?

Kel.

Kel;

Finally was able to get to the headers and make the measurements you requested. Sorry for the delay. THe header tubes are 24" long from the flange to the collector. They are equal length. The tube diameter does change. THe first 3" is pressed into a more retangular cross section, and is 1.5" OD, and the remaining length is 1.75 OD.

Yes it would be interesting to run the motor with a carb, and I bet your right that it would be 375 square. But I'm sticking with EFI for now. I'm gonna try a new intake manifold by Edlebrock. IT's a Pro Flow XT. Looks a lot like an LT1 intake. Should flow better at high rpms.

[boothkc]

You can certainly run the 351W headers on a 5.0. You may have to move the oil filter etc on the GTRA, but the steering etc. is the same as the GTS etc.

We now run 351W aluminum heads (old set from our GTS) on the stock 5.0 Explorer motor and it runs great with carb and new Performer manifold too. Got tired of the blasted fuel injection running like crap so went simple. Tossed out tons of wires and FI crap. Now same set up as our GTS with carb, MSD 6AN? etc. We were at 235rwhp seems like we gained about 50hp with the head and carb swap.

So yes you can use 351W stuff.

Kevin
GTS and GTRA

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Blue Streak 21

Kel;

Finally was able to get to the headers and make the measurements you requested. Sorry for the delay. THe header tubes are 24" long from the flange to the collector. They are equal length. The tube diameter does change. THe first 3" is pressed into a more retangular cross section, and is 1.5" OD, and the remaining length is 1.75 OD.

Yes it would be interesting to run the motor with a carb, and I bet your right that it would be 375 square. But I'm sticking with EFI for now. I'm gonna try a new intake manifold by Edlebrock. IT's a Pro Flow XT. Looks a lot like an LT1 intake. Should flow better at high rpms.

Jerry, the primary length of the GTS header is interesting at 24" for the 5.0. 24" is to short to make optimal power & torque at reasonable rpm (see Performance Tuning in Theory & Practice by A. Graeme Bell page 115).

This length primary for a 5.0 with the sort of cam duration we run (approx 220 - 235 deg at .050") is designed to make peak power up around 7500 - 8000rpm. The primary lengths on my headers are around 36" for this reason, to get the peak torque and hp down around 4500 - 6000rpm.

It will be really interesting to see where peak torque and hp end up when you change your manifold over. I expect that they will be at higher rpm than at present.

I must say that I am loving the torque of the 347. Corners that we used to take in 2nd gear we can now take in 3rd and the car will still step out (slide) if to much throttle is used. Makes for a far nicer package to drive. I am finding myself short shifting a lot now as there is no need to rev the engine due to the amount of torque on tap.

Kel.

[PanozDuke]

Kel,
Remind me again, what are the primary diameter on yours and the collector diameter and length before they merge.

Thanks,
Mike