The future of model building

[lotus123]

Great input guys! Exactly the kind of responses I was hoping for. And while some of you had a more conservative outlook, your comments lead me to believe this could happen someday. Sorry for this long post, but the urge to answer all your posts is irresistible!

Originally Posted by Cheesey153

It may not be in the manufacturers' interests to create a market where we (the modellers) buy only "the kit we want"; would there be sufficient profit margin per unit across the product range across the global markets to sustan their interest?
Jon.

This is the whole point of a new business model - wresting control away from traditional suppliers to create a new, sustainable and valuable product or service. It's not about what's in the manufacturers interest, it's about what we as buyers want.

Originally Posted by Cheesey153

By many people's standard I have a tiny kit stash but if I had more disposable income I would have a huge kit stash - yet I would still only build a small proportion of that stash. Could the costs of this 3-D wizardry be driven low enough to enable modellers to continue to amass their considerable stashes, and thereby keep the unit profit margins 'ticking over' for the manufacturers?
Jon.

Me too. But would I feel the need to amass a large stash if I knew I could get any kits I want, at the click of a mouse? No more OOP kits, no more stupid eBay prices. Let's face it, a large stash ties up money, space and forces you to endure endless flak from your significant other. And the damn thing isn't even a decent investment (despite what we told her). I'd still want to keep some kits though - I do get a kick out of looking at the stuff from time to time.

Originally Posted by CrateCruncher

Fun and Interesting thread Lotus123,

The pesimists will want to kill it. Until then we can have some fun.

You really gave great input - please feel free to carry on having fun with this one!

Originally Posted by CrateCruncher

Edit: If someone could come up with a paper model style of construction for R/C planes that eliminates balsa wood that would really be huge! The whole plane could be printed on your inkjet and sprayed with fuelproof sealer.

I remember reading a while back about RC modellers using that corrugated board (it's made from a white plastic) that realtors/estate agents print their signs on. Apparently it's really light and strong - have you seen that?

Originally Posted by CrateCruncher

What would really be cool is if 3 or 4 people with different skills could all agree on a single project. One guy designs the body, another does the drivetrain, another designs the photo-etch. Maybe another test builds, revises and writes the instructions. By sharing files they make sure the independently designed parts all fit together even though they may be half-way around the world from one another.

Now this is the kind of thinking that gets me going! It fits exactly into the Web 2.0 collaboration concept. I've been building a F430 Challenge, and Robi J was kind enough to send me a drawing of some engine bulkhead panels that he'd made up. Sharing resources like that will define this hobby in the future.

Originally Posted by jmesawitz

The thing I do not like in your outline is the comparison to music. Sharing specifically. If a 3D modeler were to spend 100 hours (probably a lot more) on a design that is sold electronically, the potential to share that file is not only possible but likely. There is no benefit to the design originator to enter into such an agreement.

Fair point. Maybe we should consider why the design originator is doing it in the first place. Some would do it because they want a particular model or component for their own project, and would pass it on. Let's say I make a CAD drawing to create some photoetch parts I need. Giving away the digital design after completion is fine by me - I have no commercial aims, and sharing makes me feel good. I'm giving something back to the community that's developed my interest in the hobby.
On the other hand, maybe I'm not that easygoing. Maybe I see that there is a niche to be filled with a particular kit/transkit/decal. I need to decide if there is a market big enough to make it worthwhile, make sure I have first-mover advantage and figure out how to protect my intellectual property. Maybe I decide, after all is considered, that I must make it, package it and ship it in the traditional style. Even though my costs are high, my IP will be safe.
Or do I decide that supplying digitally is the way to go? Sure, my IP is fairly unsafe, but for the few copies that will be bootlegged there will be many more that are legitimately bought (and I don't have to concern myself with manufacturing and distribution). One thing about digital products - it's the first copy that contains all the costs. After that, everything goes to the bottom line!
The reason I mention music is because it's the most contested area of copyright and sharing on the Web today. And it's also a model that's being massively changed, from high street retail to digital distribution - exactly the way this hobby could go.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

For many, it is the making part that is the buzz.
For some, it is simply having the thing.
For some, it is about hand crafting little teensy bits of styrene and metal.
For some it is about doing what-ever it takes to get something.

So true.

Jano - your feedback is golden, and your words of caution are accepted with thanks. No better source of wisdom than the man who has done it himself.
I am intrigued by your comments regarding the ability of the technology to render parts at 1/24th scale. One must hope that as the technology evolves the resolution will improve too (bit like those early inkjet printers, don't you think?).
How would you rate 3D printing as a means of making components versus CNC milling? Are the processes comparable?

I personally have great hope for the future of 3D printing. Beyond modelling, I was intrigued to see that 3D printers are now making replacement bones for orthopaedic procedures. Think about that - you can't whip out the bones from a crushed hand and make a resin cast. Instead you scan/xray the good hand and use that as a digital reference point for a replacement. Wow!

[jano11]

Originally Posted by lotus123

Jano - your feedback is golden, and your words of caution are accepted with thanks. No better source of wisdom than the man who has done it himself.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by lotus123

I am intrigued by your comments regarding the ability of the technology to render parts at 1/24th scale. One must hope that as the technology evolves the resolution will improve too (bit like those early inkjet printers, don't you think?).

Obviously the technology will improve.
However for now it's not yet 100% adapted to 1/24 scale model details.

I took a look to the shapeways site you provided in your first post. I searched the materials they use and their properties. Some of them (usualy the stronger ones only allow for little detail). Than you have the ones that apparently allow for more detail, but that is just the detail on the surface, because it is clearly mentioned that you need a minimum wall strength that is usually around 1 mm.
Imagine if I have to make all the rims I modeled with spokes 1mm thick! What would that look like?

So as you say the technology will improve, how far? Depends on the ROI the manufacturers will think they can make.
Let's not discount the fact that more accuracy means better materials used and thus it costs more.

How much did a good photo quality printer cost when they first came around? A couple hundreds? How much does it cost now? Still close to one hundred.
What manufacturers usually do is to produce a product that gives them the best profit possible. Which means that instead of making an older product cheaper and cheaper they will rather add to it and sell it for more money in order to make more money out of it.

I'm not expecting 3D printers to become dirt cheap, that will not happen as long as the current business model doesn't suffer a huge change, and it doesn't look like this will happen any time soon.

Back to materials. IMO the improvements that will be done in producing higher detail 3D printed parts is not only in liaison with the machine but also very much based on the material used for the printing. There will certainly be materials with improved qualities for this application, but rest assured that the prices will be higher too.

Originally Posted by lotus123

How would you rate 3D printing as a means of making components versus CNC milling? Are the processes comparable?

For now CNC milling is the one that will give the better quality, with possibility to produce impressive detail levels, but it takes much longer and the price is also much higher than that of 3D printing for a similar part produced.

I'm looking into getting in the near future one small CNC machine along with a reasonably priced 3D printer, but these are only plans for now given the prices.
Sure I could build them too, there are enough plans and info on the net for this to be possible, but the time that would take is better used to make or build some models.

[lotus123]

Originally Posted by jano11

How much did a good photo quality printer cost when they first came around? A couple hundreds? How much does it cost now? Still close to one hundred.
What manufacturers usually do is to produce a product that gives them the best profit possible. Which means that instead of making an older product cheaper and cheaper they will rather add to it and sell it for more money in order to make more money out of it.

The big difference between the old and new printers is the functionality that is now built into the printer, aside from the fact that prices are similar or even lower in most cases. Not only resolution is better - you also have features that were unheard of in the original models, such as memory card readers, Infrared/Bluetooth, USB, etc. HOWEVER (excuse the caps, must make strong point) - these devices have been developed for the consumer mass market, so it is fair to guess that 3D printers won't enjoy the same stimulus UNLESS the market develops.

The reason consumer printers are so cheap and functional is because the manufacturers make the real money on consumables. If they print better photos you'll print more photos.

[jano11]

Whichis exactly what I said, they will add features to the printer in order to keep a high price that allows them to have a higher profit margin on the product.
The problem is that most features are usually useless or one can live without feeling there's something missing, like having usb stick and card readers on a printer, or even the possibility to edit photos directly on the printer.

[André_Ferreira]

I've been visiting this forum for a few years now, although I never really post any comments nor models due to lack of time to build basically ( and lack of skills too ) , but this thread caught my attention.
With regards to 3d models availability, created using a proper cad tool or just any other 3D software...there is an imense world within computer games...and a lot of free tools to export models from games to a few 3d softwars, which are a really good base to start working on. It would still require a significant amount of time to make them "printable"...but there is plenty stuff out there in terms of cars that we never had as scale models that just "need work" instead of "need to be created from scratch".

Just thought I should put this idea across - although I reckon that a lot of people might have seen this already; and that it would still require a lot of work to produce a good replica.

Brilliant thread, brilliant forum.

Best Regards
André

[jano11]

Hi André, welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your knowledge with us!

I'm interested to know more about how do you think that a 3D rendering from a game can be extracted and imported in a 3D modeling or CAD software in order to modify it.

[André_Ferreira]

Originally Posted by jano11

Hi André, welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your knowledge with us!

I'm interested to know more about how do you think that a 3D rendering from a game can be extracted and imported in a 3D modeling or CAD software in order to modify it.

It doesn't sound like a straight forward thing in terms of conversion but let me tell you that you'll be surprised.
A render is something completely different from what you have in a game - a render is basically a picture - sorry for this crude explanation.
Any car in a game is nothing but loads of poligons "welded" together or loads of surfaces "welded" together, so from this point of view a 3d model from a game or any part you design using catia, ideas, solidworks, whatever are not that different I would say.

There are a few softwares ( that you can BUY ) that allow you to extract car models from the majority of the main stream computer games ( that you should BUY ) and export them to a format that you can open with 3D studio max (which is a nice piece of software that you can also...BUY eheheh), let's say as an example ( could have picked catia or any other but this would be a more complicated process). At this point you will have a group of poligons/surfaces that define your car.

So once it is imported you can pretty much do anything with it really, edit surfaces, add parts, details, the list of stuff you can do is quite big but let me say that it would still require a lot of work to make it good for printing...I didn't went through all the details, not sure how "correrect/legal" this is, and sorry for the extensive use of the word BUY, but don't mean to be pointing anyone to do anything ilegal ( which let's face it, everyone in the world that uses a computer downloads stuff, but this is a forum and I'm aware of the restrictions ).

Not sure if I really provided all the info you wanted, but let me know what you think.

Best Regards
André

[jano11]

André, this is a very interesting approach I never seriously thought about before.

What concerns me most is the accuracy of the renderings they use in games and the time it takes to extract them, convert them and than make them usable for rapid prototyping.
If it's shorter to take a set of blueprints and make a good 3D model than it isn't worth the hassle, if not than it's a viable option.

Can you give us any more info about these aspects?

[André_Ferreira]

Originally Posted by jano11

André, this is a very interesting approach I never seriously thought about before.

What concerns me most is the accuracy of the renderings they use in games and the time it takes to extract them, convert them and than make them usable for rapid prototyping.
If it's shorter to take a set of blueprints and make a good 3D model than it isn't worth the hassle, if not than it's a viable option.

Can you give us any more info about these aspects?

Jano,

The time it takes to convert the model ( as I said before games use 3D models not renders ) from a game to 3D max ( as an example ) is around 30seconds...now the time it takes to make it good enough to print...that's going back a couple of posts where that was discussed - it will require some significant amount of work.
I think you are missing an important point - any model from a game is made using blueprints , so it has a certain degree of accuracy already ( and in recent mods for several games, the detail in some of the cars is really insane). It will save you the time of having to model everything from scratch, therefore you really only need to concentrate on the details that are important for you.
It would probably still take 100 hrs or so (don't know really), depending on the skills with the software and the level of detail you are trying to achieve, but I would say that half of the work would be done from the word go.

Just something I've picked up in terms of cost. It's true that it would cost around $300 to print a model but the more stuff you print, the cheap it is in the end...I've received a quote for a 1/24 body shell (like any tamiya body) of around £360 with 30micron layers (it can go up to 16 micron layers), but if I wanted to print 2 shells in the same tray, the cost would be £235...now if it was the complete model with chassis, suspension, etc it would be even cheaper. So let's say that you and your mates want to print 3 copies ( depends on the capacity of the printer of course), it would probabaly cost around or less than £100, which is what you pay for some curbside MFH kits - I know that MFH has really good detail, comes with decals, ready to assemble...but in the end of the day we do love a bit, the torture of making a model better

I'm not saying that it is easy because it isn't, there is still a lot of work involved...but there is certainly a way to have more models available. I'm sure that someone will try to make a profit out of it, fair enough, that's the way it always goes, but as long as there is more for us to choose from, and if in the long term it brings the costs down by having more kits on the market...I guess I could easily live with that problem

Best Regards
André

[jano11]

Originally Posted by André_Ferreira

Jano,

The time it takes to convert the model ( as I said before games use 3D models not renders ) from a game to 3D max ( as an example ) is around 30seconds...now the time it takes to make it good enough to print...that's going back a couple of posts where that was discussed - it will require some significant amount of work.
I think you are missing an important point - any model from a game is made using blueprints , so it has a certain degree of accuracy already ( and in recent mods for several games, the detail in some of the cars is really insane). It will save you the time of having to model everything from scratch, therefore you really only need to concentrate on the details that are important for you.
It would probably still take 100 hrs or so (don't know really), depending on the skills with the software and the level of detail you are trying to achieve, but I would say that half of the work would be done from the word go.

Just something I've picked up in terms of cost. It's true that it would cost around $300 to print a model but the more stuff you print, the cheap it is in the end...I've received a quote for a 1/24 body shell (like any tamiya body) of around £360 with 30micron layers (it can go up to 16 micron layers), but if I wanted to print 2 shells in the same tray, the cost would be £235...now if it was the complete model with chassis, suspension, etc it would be even cheaper. So let's say that you and your mates want to print 3 copies ( depends on the capacity of the printer of course), it would probabaly cost around or less than £100, which is what you pay for some curbside MFH kits - I know that MFH has really good detail, comes with decals, ready to assemble...but in the end of the day we do love a bit, the torture of making a model better

I'm not saying that it is easy because it isn't, there is still a lot of work involved...but there is certainly a way to have more models available. I'm sure that someone will try to make a profit out of it, fair enough, that's the way it always goes, but as long as there is more for us to choose from, and if in the long term it brings the costs down by having more kits on the market...I guess I could easily live with that problem

Best Regards
André

Thanks for the info. Your idea about taking the model from a game and improve it to the level of being good enough for 3D printing is great.
Did you already try it?

I would like to see what such a model extracted from a game looks like before improvements are made. If you could show us one I believe we would all be thankful for it.

Also getting a full model printed for as ow as 100£ with 30micron layers would be good business.

Now, if only I had enough time for everything I would like to do!

[André_Ferreira]

Like you, spare time is scarce but I did import a few models already and played a bit with the details but nothing serious.

See the link bellow:

http://rapidshare.com/files/264532700/output4.stl

this is the .stl file I used to get the quote for the rapid prototyping. It's a straight forward translation - none of the work attached is mine. I haven't done any changes to the model, but as you will see, there is scope to obtain a good model...with some work of course.

Best Regards
André

[jano11]

Originally Posted by André_Ferreira

Like you, spare time is scarce but I did import a few models already and played a bit with the details but nothing serious.

See the link bellow:

http://rapidshare.com/files/264532700/output4.stl

this is the .stl file I used to get the quote for the rapid prototyping. It's a straight forward translation - none of the work attached is mine. I haven't done any changes to the model, but as you will see, there is scope to obtain a good model...with some work of course.

Best Regards
André

André that is not as bad as I was expecting for a simply extracted model. The polygon count is certainly low for it's size (I have in excess of 20000 for some of my wheel models) but it's a good base.

I'll have to take a look to this extracting process you use, it certainly looks promising. However there is still a copyright problem attached to it, and I certainly wouldn't want to have PC game producer's lawyers chasing me.

This idea of yours is really a great time saver.

[André_Ferreira]

That model contains a simple "smooth" feature to make everything more or less even but it's really basic. A proper "mesh smoothing" would have more iterations and therefore a higher polygon count hence better quality.

Yeah, the copyright is always the catch isn't it? But the model can be extensively modified and the end result will surelly be very different from the original making it really hard to trace back - it's just a matter of tweaking the position of the vertices and you'll have a completely different model from the base one

[gionc]

Hi guys. I have not much more to add if not that I trust more in CNC cheap applications in our domestic area (commercial speculation with those old tech are end by time, and you'll convert on CNC a good mill for cheap) , that said by one that use rapid proto techs any day for job or "hobby".

But I write now for another question, and it's a bit OT.

As a product designer I'm used to style things like H or N devices, compressors or coolers, this is mainly my working area. I designed also other esotic stuff like an electric motorbike.
Now I have a request to design an electric bycicle, hi-end kind, equipped with top gears, something like a Shimano XT-R group. Anyone know where I'll find/download/purchase 3D models of such great components?

Zory for OT, I would say it's only 50% OT

[André_Ferreira]

Not sure if this is what you are looking for it's the complete thing

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/...ountain/245500

But there are several of these websites around with expensive but high quality models


Best Regards
André