You Can't Steal My Christmas!

[Knifeblade]

Meh, just look back at them, repeat the message, or immediately say "I've changed my mind, give me my money back, I'm going elsewhere". Think about it.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by CL8

MagicRat, i'd like to jump in here and clarify the bolded statement if you don't mind. I, and my fellow Christians who take the effort to spread the gospel of salvation through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, do it NOT because of hostility to your worth as a person or soul, we do it out of love. We don't want to see ANY soul end up in a fiery hell in Gods Judgment.
We are ALL sinners and need a Savior, the Christian AND the Atheist.

Thank you for the reply and the link. Unfortunately, my computer lacks a suitable audio device driver so I have no sound and cannot listen to the video.

I do like many Christians as many are my dear friends and relatives. I am touched by the concern that some, such as yourself express for the reasons you state.

However, there are as many interpretations of Christianity as there are Christians, it seems. While some, such as yourself are genuinely concerned, there are others who seek to have power and control over people; who feel driven to inflict their particular belief system upon those around them.

Imho this difference in interpretation and subsequent power and influence is why Christianity has become fractured into dozens of belief structures (churches) over the centuries.
Often they have conflicting views on many issues. (in fact their differences only reinforces my distaste for the institution of Christianity (but usually not the individuals))

So I appreciate your genuinely heartfelt concerns. But in my heart I know there is no god, no heaven and no hell. These thoughts bring me peace and contentment and allow me to focus myself on what is really important; my friends, my family and, in some small way, making our physical world and environment (not a mythical heaven or hell) a better place.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by Maximus84

I didnt take a scientific survey,but its a huge majority that are Christians in this country,& its what this country was founded on. You really want me to look it up? Why do you keep stirring the pot? You know I'm right. I dont really believe placing a sign making statements against Christianity, within a few feet of a Nativity scene,is what you think is freedom of religion,because THAT doesnt follow the guidlines.That is an ATTACK on religion,& not stating your alternative belief. You want your holiday,petition Congress. as for your inaccurate comment,about complaints this time of year,now ,again,you know why.

Maximus, your arguments are flawed, inconsistent, excessively emotional and highly biased. They simply beg for rebuttal. That is why I 'stir the pot'. And don't get me started on your poor spelling and punctuation

Frankly, 'attacking Christianity' is freedom of expression. The event you describe is disrespectful and tasteless but is permissible under the constitution. If the Christian organization that is allegedly being 'attacked' does not like it, they can sue for damages in the nation's secular and impartial courts system.

BTW the US was founded to be a free nation (so long as you were not black or a woman) but not specifically a Christian one. In fact, many of the excesses of Christianity, particularly the Catholic Church of the day were among the influences that the Founding Fathers sought to limit or control, to ensure reasonable freedom for its citizens.

[Maximus84]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Maximus, your arguments are flawed, inconsistent, excessively emotional and highly biased. They simply beg for rebuttal. That is why I 'stir the pot'. And don't get me started on your poor spelling and punctuation

Frankly, 'attacking Christianity' is freedom of expression. The event you describe is disrespectful and tasteless but is permissible under the constitution. If the Christian organization that is allegedly being 'attacked' does not like it, they can sue for damages in the nation's secular and impartial courts system.

BTW the US was founded to be a free nation (so long as you were not black or a woman) but not specifically a Christian one. In fact, many of the excesses of Christianity, particularly the Catholic Church of the day were among the influences that the Founding Fathers sought to limit or control, to ensure reasonable freedom for its citizens.

As I stated earlier,but I guess you cant read it,...here it is again for the last time

1st- I know how to spell,but as I've pointed out elsewhere on this forum,I type with one,sometimes 2 fingers...another reason I copy/paste... and sometimes I dont feel like going back to fix things.So,if you see that once in awhile,get over it.You know what I'm talking about.You think one word in one paragraph proves I'm illiterate? And you know why I asked if they could read--it was current events I was referring to.You knew that but you wanted to get your shot in just the same.Thats also why you used Jesus in your dumb attempt in that response. Cant you be a moderator who is moderate in his totally unnecessary response? 'Don't look like it,do it? Oops,theres my illiteracy again

the country was based on Christian faith and values.Why dont you do a little research,instead of attacking,like the placard within feet of the Nativity in the Washington State capital building did that the whole country made her( the Governer) change,& quit changing the focus of this subject if you want to "make the world a better place"? If thats what you want you should learn how to have a peaceful discussion.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Thank you for the reply and the link. Unfortunately, my computer lacks a suitable audio device driver so I have no sound and cannot listen to the video.

I'm sorry you couldn't hear the clip. He basically says he has no respect for Christians who don't "proselytize" because, he says :
" How much do you have to hate someone to truly believe they will end up in a fiery hell when they die, and not warn them and tell them how to escape because you feel socially awkward?"

I do like many Christians as many are my dear friends and relatives. I am touched by the concern that some, such as yourself express for the reasons you state.

However, there are as many interpretations of Christianity as there are Christians, it seems. While some, such as yourself are genuinely concerned, there are others who seek to have power and control over people; who feel driven to inflict their particular belief system upon those around them.

That's very true, especially when it comes to T.V. evangelists. Many will preach false doctrine, just to intimidate listeners to support them financially. That is wrong and they will be judged for that.

Imho this difference in interpretation and subsequent power and influence is why Christianity has become fractured into dozens of belief structures (churches) over the centuries.
Often they have conflicting views on many issues. (in fact their differences only reinforces my distaste for the institution of Christianity (but usually not the individuals))

Thats true, not all people or churches who claim to be Christian are. Thats why any Christian Preacher whos heart and doctrine is right will tell their listeners to study and know the bible for themselves, then they will know which preachers are teaching false bible doctrine and which are preaching the truth.

So I appreciate your genuinely heartfelt concerns. But in my heart I know there is no god, no heaven and no hell.

J penn in the video says the same thing. How is it I wonder, Christians such as myself know in our hearts that there is a God, heaven and hell, but Atheists like you and Penn know in your heart the opposite? We can't both be right.

These thoughts bring me peace and contentment and allow me to focus myself on what is really important; my friends, my family and, in some small way, making our physical world and environment (not a mythical heaven or hell) a better place.

I'm curious do you know what "Pascals wager" is?

[MagicRat]

I am familiar with Pascal's Wager. Imho many people live by this wager, often without really knowing it. Imo anyone who lacks true conviction, or has any doubt, does this.

I cannot criticize people who do, it is a natural strategy for humans to 'hedge our bets' in life, whether it's about career, family life or buying insurance. We all want a 'back-up plan' for the unforeseen.

I try to lead a good, constructive and reasonably charitable life (just look at the more that 4000 technical-assistance posts I have written to people in need on this Forum) because it is the right thing to do. Like millions of decent people around the world, I do not need to be bribed by a mythical figure (and eternal happiness) to do so.

Social scientists have wondered about this human trait, because religious fervor simply does not explain all the acts of generosity and compassion that people from all walks of life display.

A popular theory is that humans have evolved over hundreds of thousands of generations to be good to each other because it is beneficial to our mutual survival.
As we know, the era of cities and larger communities is relatively new. For most of history, humans have survived in tiny nomadic groups or tiny villages and communities where one had to cooperate with others for survival. This included generosity of spirit. The selfish and the uncooperative were less likely to survive and reproduce.

So, in this sense, the majority of humans have 'evolved' to do the right thing in life.

Originally Posted by CL8

How is it I wonder, Christians such as myself know in our hearts that there is a God, heaven and hell, but Atheists like you and Penn know in your heart the opposite? We can't both be right.

Well, many people for centuries have argued about this question, haven't they?
Here are two of the many reasons why I do not believe in god or any of his alleged institutions:

1. There is no proof of the existence of god. She has never tangibly appeared or done anything measurable and observable at all. All arguments to support his existence are derived from imo a lack of true understanding of the world around us.
For example, in the past much natural phenomenon (lightning, the Planets, the functions that power our Sun, etc) was not understood and thus attributed to be products of gods work.
However, as logic, reason and the sciences evolved, more rational explanations were found; all of which serve to undermine the claim that god exists.
Very recently the Catholic Church has furiously back-pedaled about Galileo's discoveries and his subsequent status in the Church, in order to quell criticism and restore some semblance of their credibility.

2. The concept of god is entirely man-made and are so tremendously variable. Who has the concept of god correct? Jews? Catholics? Baptists? Presbyterians? Shiites? Sunnis? You can see my point.
If god did reveal his existence to people then there should be much more consensus and agreement about the nature of our worship of him.

I realise that many people would say that god allows us to worship him in our own way, and that's okay. But millions of others simply hate that idea.
Millions of religious people truly believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong (and will burn in hell.) So who is right?
Imo the only rational answer to settle the tremendous quantity of inconsistencies and contradictions is that all religious explanations of god, heaven, hell etc are wrong and god simply does not exist.

3. Logic and reason are among the very few tools that humans have to create order and sense in this world. A belief in god is not logical and cannot be supported by reason.

So, why do I rely on logic and reason, and discount the notion of faith?

Religious people do discuss the aspect of 'faith' that is, an extraordinary belief in god in times of doubt or in the face of evidence to the contrary. However, the nature of faith is that it is intangible; it cannot be measured and can be very harmful. Millions of German Nazis had faith that they were the Master Race and the Jews had to be eliminated. Millions of Stalinist Communists had faith in their leader and did his bidding.

Imho humans can do better than faith. They can use their faculties or reason and rational intellect to build a better, more cooperative and more rational society. I can do my part in this by being an atheist.

Finally, in response to the proselytizing; this is why politics and religion are often hopeless at parties.
Proselytizing causes grief and strife. I can respect people who make the effort to do what they think is right, but they are arguing an irrational, incorrect belief system.
Logic and rationality can be clearly understood by reasonable people. Religion cannot; and the hundreds of religious -based wars demonstrates the end result of the proselytizing philosophy.

BTW I appreciate your replies and your input in this discussion.

[jon@af]

Originally Posted by Maximus84

As I stated earlier,but I guess you cant read it,...here it is again for the last time the country was based on Christian faith and values.Why dont you do a little research,instead of attacking,like the placard within feet of the Nativity in the Washington State capital building did that the whole country made her( the Governer) change,& quit changing the focus of this subject if you want to "make the world a better place"? If thats what you want you should learn how to have a peaceful discussion.

Before I say this, I consider myself a Christian, however, I try to be very open with my beliefs as well as the beliefs of others. I don't want to be one of those people that everyone else looks at and says "he's one of those Christians that is out to save your soul." I'm only interested in discussing why I believe what I do if the person I'm speaking to is interested in hearing about it.

MagicRat being an atheist doesn't bother me. Not in the least. And to play devil's advocate, I see where he is coming from. The only reason you feel there is no peaceful discussion is because he has a perspective that does not mesh well with yours. In fact, you seem to epitomize one of the problems that he has with the holiday season: You insist that you are right and he is wrong, that because he doesn't believe in God or have faith, that he has no right to an opinion on the matter or that whatever opinion he shares is "uncivil" in it's nature because it does not line up with your views.

To be completely honest, it bothers me quite a bit to see people tearing others down for their beliefs or lackthereof, especially because "they don't believe in the spirit of Christmas." Our country WAS formed on faith, but it was also formed on the belief that we could be free to worship and speak as we wish.

Does it bother me when someone sues an airport because there is a Christmas tree in the lobby? Yes, it does. Does it bother me when people defile nativities because they don't agree with what it stands for? Yes, it does. However, that is because those suits and those acts of vandalism are coming from people who are intolerant of something that is different from what they believe. People who are just as intolerant as you are when it comes to this discussion.

This is one of the reasons why I rarely come in here - because we have people who are steadfast in their perspectives but willing to engage in discussion with those who do not share the same perspectives and are often caught up in one-sided (from my perspective) discussions with individuals who cannot look outside of their own tiny boxes.

I'm glad that there are at least a couple of people in this thread that have heads attached tightly enough that they can keep things civil and respectful.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

I am familiar with Pascal's Wager. Imho many people live by this wager, often without really knowing it. Imo anyone who lacks true conviction, or has any doubt, does this.

So in other words, in the gamble of what happens to you after you die, you are content to take the chance that you are right, there is no God, you will just non-exsist after death, rather than call upon God for salvation (in Christ).
If you are wrong you will burn for eternity, if Christians are wrong, no harm will come to them, they won't exist when they die. The Christian is taking the win-win position. Why take the chance of losing your own soul?

I try to lead a good, constructive and reasonably charitable life (just look at the more that 4000 technical-assistance posts I have written to people in need on this Forum) because it is the right thing to do. Like millions of decent people around the world, I do not need to be bribed by a mythical figure (and eternal happiness) to do so.

I am thankful you strive to do right to other people, too many don't, but I'm sure you will admit those good deeds don't make you a perfect person by any measure.
That is where, in Christian doctine, the atonement of Christ comes in, to perfect us.

Social scientists have wondered about this human trait, because religious fervor simply does not explain all the acts of generosity and compassion that people from all walks of life display.

I see from your statement here, the social scientists, by their puzzlement, show they know humans are NOT perfect and good, they know by nature we humans are selfish, so they ask "why do people try to be good?" ( Not "Why do people try to do bad?") that comes naturally.

A popular theory is that humans have evolved over hundreds of thousands of generations to be good to each other because it is beneficial to our mutual survival.

If humans were what they should be to begin with, they shouldn't have to "evolve " to be good to eachother, they should do it naturally like eating or breathing, wouldn't you agree?

Here are two of the many reasons why I do not believe in god or any of his alleged institutions:

1. There is no proof of the existence of god.

When you or any person can create life out of nothing, then I'll believe there is no proof for God.

For example, in the past much natural phenomenon (lightning, the Planets, the functions that power our Sun, etc) was not understood and thus attributed to be products of gods work.

Has humanity yet been able to create a planet? Or has humanity even yet figured out how to live on a planet other than earth? I would say humanity has learned less than an infinitesimal amount about the univesre, compared to what knowledge is out there.

2. The concept of god is entirely man-made

You can't prove that, no one can prove there is no God

and are so tremendously variable. Who has the concept of god correct? Jews? Catholics? Baptists? Presbyterians? Shiites? Sunnis?

Baptist doctrine has the correct concept of God.

Imo the only rational answer to settle the tremendous quantity of inconsistencies and contradictions is that all religious explanations of god, heaven, hell etc are wrong and god simply does not exist.

But if you are wrong and God and hell exist you'll be eternally sorry at death (Pascals wager)

A belief in god is not logical and cannot be supported by reason.

Neither is a belief that the universe popped into existence by itself

So, why do I rely on logic and reason, and discount the notion of faith?


Imho humans can do better than faith.

Everyone uses faith everyday, you can't live without it, otherwise you wouldn't let the bank hold your money ( even though in this economy were losing faith in that!), people wouldn't drive, wouldn't do business with people, would NEVER stay or even get married. Living requires faith and trust.

Finally, in response to the proselytizing; this is why politics and religion are often hopeless at parties.

I agree, I don't normally proselytize at parties, but I will discuss my faith when the topic comes up.

BTW I appreciate your replies and your input in this discussion.

It's my pleasure to reply, sincerely Cl8

[ExoticSpotting]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Imho the Christians are developing the peeps, not the atheists. It seems atheists are not doing the attacking, but Christians are claiming they are.

Athiests aren't attacking christians? Do you live under a rock?
Haven't you heard about the athiest sign in the Washington capitol?

We're claiming you're attacking us because you are. If athiests wanted to put up a sign that said something constructive and positive, everybody would be cool with that. If you want to put up a sign to express your beliefs in a calm and informative manner, GO AHEAD. But that sign is not an expression of athiest ideals, its an attack on religion.

Originally Posted by MagicRat

I would say complaints from Christians about being oppressed seem only to emerge around Christmastime.

Gee, maybe thats because its when all the christians get together to celebrate their religion in public?

No thats crazy talk, its all part of our plan to brainwash athiest kids, and apoint the Pope as Supreme Emperor of Earth!


I personally don't see whats so offensive about nativity scenes and christmas trees. I drive past the Islamic Center of Clarksville every day, but for some reason I don't feel the urge to bitch and moan about intolerance and bigotry.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by ExoticSpotting

We're claiming you're attacking us because you are.

I'm fairly confident that just as many Christians attack non Christians and other non-believers as non-believers attack Christians. In any case, what right do people of any faith have to criticise "attacks" on their faith when people of their faith attack others?

"Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but don't consider the beam that is in your own eye?"

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by ExoticSpotting

its all part of our plan to brainwash athiest kids, and apoint the Pope as Supreme Emperor of Earth!

While you may think this is amusing, it is actually true, generally speaking.

Most of any traditional Christian service in church is essentially indoctrination into the particular Christian way of thinking. Sermons, prayers and hymns all serve to reinforce religious instructions and ways of thinking into the people in attendance.
Such methods have been demonstrated as being very effective in getting an audience to adhere to the message being given. This is why for decades, commercial advertisements on TV, radio and print have used exactly the same methods.

Last I looked, there was no organized Atheistic movement to oppose the organized churches. There were no Atheist propaganda halls on every street corner. But there sure are many churches which have indoctrination sessions (services) several times each week.

Christianity is, by nature, expansionist. Virtually all Christian churches seek to spread their particular interpretation of god and increase the numbers of believers. Thus I am sure, the Vatican would be delighted if the ALL Christians, and even the entire world became Catholic.

Certainly many Muslims feel this way. Saudi Arabia spends millions of dollars to fund Islamic projects around the world. Many Muslims want to see an entirely Islamic planet under Sharia law.

So, what is keeping these competing religions in place? What has worked in the past to lessen the number of bitter religious wars? Atheistic principles such as the secular rule of law and the growing prominence of secular national interests, such as international commerce and stable international relations.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Last I looked, there was no organized Atheistic movement to oppose the organized churches.

Actually, they've been very effective in the courts and they continue to chip away at every aspect of religion in American life. They've been far too quick to find fault and offense where none exists or was ever intended.

The courts have lent a ready ear and the ACLU has been decidedly anti christian in its activities.

Personally, I believe that our society is paying the price for doing its best to exclude God from our lives.

No matter. These discussions never end on a good note. Scripture says that everyone who hears the message is then responsible for rejecting or accepting it. Once the hearer has heard, it's time to move on.

Everyone needs to decide what he/she believes and act on it. The Truth will be known on the Day of Judgment.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

Actually, they've been very effective in the courts and they continue to chip away at every aspect of religion in American life. They've been far too quick to find fault and offense where none exists or was ever intended.

The courts have lent a ready ear and the ACLU has been decidedly anti christian in its activities.

Personally, I believe that our society is paying the price for doing its best to exclude God from our lives.

No matter. These discussions never end on a good note. Scripture says that everyone who hears the message is then responsible for rejecting or accepting it. Once the hearer has heard, it's time to move on.

Everyone needs to decide what he/she believes and act on it. The Truth will be known on the Day of Judgment.

I thought someone would interpret efforts to place a reasonable limit on religions as an organized effort to eliminate them.

Typically, efforts to limit religious activities have a purpose other than eliminating religion. Often, they are in place to promote harmony and equality for all by moderating the religious expression of any one particular group.

Such moderating efforts do allow other, less prominent religions to flourish by helping to prevent bias and prejudice.

Frankly, imho if there seems to be an anti-religious bias, this is due to the expansionist philosophy of Christianity, which seeks to spread its influence as quickly and as far as possible. Imho it is reasonable for a secular society to try and limit such efforts, or risk becoming a theocracy.

As for the ACLU, they have repeatedly demonstrated a reasonable balance between religious and secular concerns. Some of their actions have supported an individual's right to freedom of religious expression.

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by CL8

So in other words, in the gamble of what happens to you after you die, you are content to take the chance that you are right, there is no God, you will just non-exsist after death, rather than call upon God for salvation (in Christ).

If you are wrong you will burn for eternity, if Christians are wrong, no harm will come to them, they won't exist when they die. The Christian is taking the win-win position. Why take the chance of losing your own soul?I am thankful you strive to do right to other people, too many don't, but I'm sure you will admit those good deeds don't make you a perfect person by any measure.

Who presumes to know the mind of God? I think that if God exists, that an atheist that has good moral standards and was a good person in life would be given the opportunity to see God and believe before being cast into hell - for only through God can you reach everlasting salvation (pardon me if I quoted incorrectly) but we do have free will and are all different. Add to that, that God is a good and forgiving God.

The atheist that lives a good life has more chance of going to heaven than the hypocrite that goes to church on Sunday, believes, and does evil during the week then is granted forgiveness again later.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Typically, efforts to limit religious activities have a purpose other than eliminating religion. Often, they are in place to promote harmony and equality for all by moderating the religious expression of any one particular group.

Methinks yon gentleman doth protest too much. You know full well that the effect has been an attempt to eliminate religion. Ask Ms. O'Hare how that worked out. I lived through that time and I watched it happen. She was pretty adamant and mean spirited about it. The liberal left and the atheist movement has done/is doing its dead level best to remove God from all aspects of public life.

No "balance" about it. Spin it your way, and I'll spin it mine. It's all a matter of perspective and I'm OK with that. No one is going to change their mind as a result of an internet forum.

It's no surprise, really. Man is rebellious and unrepentant for the most part. It galls the unbeliever to think that there is an absolute truth and that we have to answer to an omniscient and omnipotent being who sets standards for our behavior. It's in the nature of the humanist to believe that man's efforts and intellect are the supreme accomplishment of existence.

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

Who presumes to know the mind of God? I think that if God exists, that an atheist that has good moral standards and was a good person in life would be given the opportunity to see God and believe before being cast into hell - for only through Christ can you reach everlasting salvation (pardon me if I quoted incorrectly) but we do have free will and are all different.

I fixed that for ya. Works alone won't do it. "Being good" won't do it. "Being bad" won't negate the power of forgiveness that comes through Christ's sacrifice. Witness the conversation between Christ and the thief on the cross at their crucifixion. I'll let you look it up.

That opportunity to see God and believe happens every time you hear the message of Christ's death and resurrection and the opportunity to accept or deny it also happens every time you hear it. The bottom line is still this and it always has been: if you've heard the message and you reject it, it's on your head, not the messenger's. There's the free will you speak of. You are quite correct on that point.

No one put a gun to my head to make me believe, but I do think the day will come when I'll be forced to recant or die. So be it.