Another reason to boycott the 2008 Olympic Games

[drunken monkey]

The thing is, when it was first announced, I agreed with the simple fact that this was more or less, the first time China would have a chance to prove itself better than the public image of it and I would have loved for them to stand up and show the world that maybe China has moved on.

As it progressed and reports of Olympic related news comes out, I am just more and more disappointed that it seems once again, they seem to putting on temporary fronts whenever someone might be looking whilst doing the same old when no one is.

As for the pollution clean up.
Probably down to the cynic in me but I can't see that lasting beyond the games but that is not down to it being China. Whenever there is a mass outcry, something is always done in the short term that does do a lot to fix the immediate issue but it hardly ever lasts.

It was the same for the SARS outbreak in HK and it is the same here in the UK relating to the MRSA incidents. People eventually forget and lapse back into old laziness. Granted that it does usually end up better than it was before whatever incident but by and by, the vigilance isn't kept up.

In this case of pollution, it feels like a lost cause anyway.
Hong Kong has no real hope of cleaning it's air purely because of the climate, the environment and the circumstances relating to its unique density and traffic of people and transport and Beijing has more than 3 times (according to one source) the population and much more heavy industry.

Forcing factories to close down and relocate only serves to move the pollution elsewhere and I'm not even sure how much that helps considering the amount of roadworks and other construction that goes on.
Lets not forget, that more the construction industry is responsible for more than 50% (it is at least 80% in the Uk for reference) of a country's pollution.

[MagicRat]

As you say, China has a massive pollution problem. IMO their clean-up for this problem is simply to shut down all industry in the region 2 weeks prior to and for the duration of the games. They did this back in 1972 when Nixon went there.

IMO China will not get serious about their pollution until the Communist party leaves power AND the general population demand better conditions.

The Chinese government does not care about the long - term health of the people there. This government has engaged in a massive public relations campaign to increase cigarette smoking. All data regarding the hazards of tobacco have been repressed. This is obviously a way to make the average worker conveniently die at about retirement age so they will not be a financial burden on society.

[Gohan Ryu]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

and the point is still the same and still for both the past soviet games and the up and coming china games; they shouldn't be hosting it.

No, the point is the Olympics are not a political forum and Jimmy Carter was labelled an asshole for using the games as such. Only the atheletes suffered from that boycott. The other point (which you blythly ignore) is that NOTHING was accomplished by the Soviet boycott. Do you understand the word NOTHING? Nada? nil? zip? zero? Remember, a boycott will not stop China from hosting the games. A boycott will only stop thousands of athletes from participating in an event they've trained almost all their lives for.

Your political rant means nothing to the people who matter -the atheletes. You don't realize the time, effort, dedication and suffering they put themselves thru. It's all about them. It's not about you, not about me and not about whatever country we happen to like or dislike at the moment, it's about the athlete. Do you think even the Chinese athletes want a boycott to happen?

There are many reasons why China should be in the political hot seat now...Tibet, Falun Gong, the environment, Disney underwear ads lol... The Olympics are not a forum for any of those issues.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by Gohan Ryu

There are many reasons why China should be in the political hot seat now...Tibet, Falun Gong, the environment, Disney underwear ads lol... The Olympics are not a forum for any of those issues.

So do you think that in light of the political situation, the Olympic selection commitee was right in selecting China as the host? Do you think that in light of the news article which I linked to in the first post qualifies China as a worthy host?
Do you think that just because nothing gets accomplished that nothing should be done and that it should all just be blindly ignored?

All it will do is punish the athletes?
Maybe but a little part of me can't help but think that seeing as it is their forum, perhaps it should be down to them to stand up and say something isn't right. They are not slaves to the Olympic commitee nor are they slaves to the viewers of the events (unless of course you are a Chinese athlete in which case, you are a slave). Why has there been so little voice from the athletes? In the case of the Chinese athletes, they have no choice but from the other nations?

Are you sure the Olympics are not political?

Hitler used them as a political forum.
Germany and Japan were not invited because of the war.
Some countries withdrew from the Melbourne games in protest of invasions.
South Africa was not invited because of apartheid.
Taiwan withdrew after China had pressured the Montreal Olympics into not allowing Taiwan to participate.
You noted the wihdraw of 60 nations from the Moscow games.
USSR retaliated with their withdrawal of 14 states from the LA games.


Sounds like a pretty political event/stage to me.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Are you sure the Olympics are not political?

Hitler used them as a political forum.
Germany and Japan were not invited because of the war.
Some countries withdrew from the Melbourne games in protest of invasions.
South Africa was not invited because of apartheid.
Taiwan withdrew after China had pressured the Montreal Olympics into not allowing Taiwan to participate.
You noted the wihdraw of 60 nations from the Moscow games.
USSR retaliated with their withdrawal of 14 states from the LA games.


Sounds like a pretty political event/stage to me.

Needless to say of course the Olympics is political which is sad.

Now as far as any boycotts like from countries like the the U.S.A. that is wishful thinking and a moot issue at this point in time. Even G.W.B. is all excited about it and the chances of the U.S. bringing home lots of medals especially the gold.

Just sit back, relax and see how it all turns out.

[drunken monkey]

Perhaps boycott is the wrong word but I can't help but think that if this was 10 years ago, there would've been a semi-global mass rally to show public by now.

I guess this is something that also bothers me slightly; that perhaps no one does care? Or going the other way around, that China has successfully hidden their actions.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that something like the Olympics should be politics free but that isn't the case. In an ideal world, it is purely about the sports and the Modern Olympic Ideal (and let's ignore that China has blatantly carried out deeds that go clearly against this). On the other hand, that it is a global event, it is possible the best forum for individuals who have an influence on people (i.e the athletes) to make their voice heard.
As controversial as it was, and whether or not you agree with it, the black panther salute did make a point.

Truth be told, I enjoy the Olympics but every now and then, I am reminded that while some athletes are there through their love of the sport and through hard work and dedication, some are there because they have no choice.

[Gohan Ryu]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

So do you think that in light of the political situation, the Olympic selection commitee was right in selecting China as the host?

Yes I do. The Olympics are not a political forum. What part of that don't you understand?

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Do you think that just because nothing gets accomplished that nothing should be done and that it should all just be blindly ignored?

If shooting yourself in the foot doesn't cure a headache, would you keep shooting yourself in the foot hoping that someday it will cure a headache? Go take an asperin, that should cure a headache. Go drink coffee, that's also known to cure a headache. Take a nap, sometimes that cures a headache. But for God's sake, don't shoot yourself in the foot AGAIN! It didn't work. It won't work. It will never work.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

All it will do is punish the athletes?

Why has there been so little voice from the athletes? In the case of the Chinese athletes, they have no choice but from the other nations?

Yes, who else has suffered from ANY Olympic boycott?

Why has there been so little voice from the Chinese athletes? We both know why...Asians are raised on the values of respect. Respect for their elders, respect for their superiors, even respect for the government which they view as the "Authority". Even if they know they are being wronged they will suffer in silence and do what is expected of them out of respect for the "Authority". It's wrong, they should speak out, but their cultural upbringing forbids it.

It is up to other nations to call out the tragic future of China's athletes. So boycott Chinese products, boycott Chinese restaurants and boycott whatever else makes the Chinese government happy. But to boycott the Games is to wipe out the 1 minute of glory these poor athletes train their whole lives for.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Are you sure the Olympics are not political?

Hitler used them as a political forum.
Germany and Japan were not invited because of the war.
Some countries withdrew from the Melbourne games in protest of invasions.
South Africa was not invited because of apartheid.
Taiwan withdrew after China had pressured the Montreal Olympics into not allowing Taiwan to participate.
You noted the wihdraw of 60 nations from the Moscow games.
USSR retaliated with their withdrawal of 14 states from the LA games.

Sounds like a pretty political event/stage to me.

I am sure the Olympics are not a political forum. That doesn't mean that nations haven't attempted to use them as such.

Hitler didn't use the Olympics to force his politics on any other country - he just thought he could show the superiority of his "Master Race" to the rest of the world. Typical of any homicidal psychopathic world leader.

Germany and Japan weren't invited to the Olympics but guess what, that didn't end the war. In fact it had no effect at all towards ending the war. Who suffered? That's right, the athletes. Hitler didn't kill himself because he couldn't compete in the Olympics, but I bet a few German athletes (who had nothing to do with German politics) wanted to die.

Did Apartheid end because of an Olympic boycott? Nope. Did the Soviets leave Afghanistan because of a boycott? Nope. Did the Soviet retaliatory boycott convince us to support the Soviet's in Afghanistan? Again...nope. Only one group of people suffered due to those boycotts and nothing was accomplished.

Sorry for the long post it's a quiet day at work.

[drunken monkey]

That has to be some of the most naive and even insulting things I've read in quite a while.
How many Chinese people do you know? How many Mainland Chinese people do you know?
Respect for authority means that they will shut up even though they know it is wrong? Did you even read the article I linked to in the first post? Most, if not all athletes do not speak out because they can't through fear of the consequences. Do you remember the students' protests in Tiannemen Square?
Those students were in a position to speak out because they are not 100% relying on the Government for their livelyhood. The same cannot be said for athletes, especially athletes selected for global events such as the Olympics or the World Championships.
How much (bad) press did that bring to China? How much political damage did that do?

How much money does the Olypmics bring to the Host country?
How much of the world is focussing on China for the games?
How much face would China lose if other countries openly protest by not participating? Boycotting Chinese products is one way to make a point but that just hurts their pockets; it does little to damage their public image, which I should point again, is strictly controlled (i.e blown up) in China. What better time to make a stand when you have cameras from around the world looking in, especially considering that most foriegn press isn't allowed to film there without permissions and escorts.

Back to the question I asked previously.
If you agree that the selction of China is a suitable host for the Olympic games, then does that mean you think that coercion and extortion and blackmailing through threats of violence and loss of home/livelihood for your family, of your own nations' athletes fulfills:

"Building a Peaceful and Better World Through Sport and the Olympic Ideal"

The short of it is quite simple;
China does not fulfill the Olympic Ideal so why were they selected as host?
While some of it is related to global politics some of it is to do with the IOC. Sure the games shouldn't be political but that does also mean that they shouldn't be selected because of their economic and hence global strength.

This isn't the first time they had applied for hosting of the games but nothing has changed in the country's behaviour since the first application so what qualifies them for hosts this time, especially if you do look at the politics. That is also why an action against the games is justified because it is also an attack of sorts on the IOC.

By the way, the war was over when Japan and Germany were omitted from the games.

[drunken monkey]

Looks like some athletes are making a stand of sorts.

BBC Link

[drunken monkey]

Some more China Olympic Shenanigans if anyone's interested.
Link 1
link 2
link 3

[03cavPA]

Well, as much as China would like its "Orwellian" efforts to give them control over the citizenry, they couldn't stop this one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26123277/

I wouldn't expect them to be able to; it's impossible to have complete control over everything at all times.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

That has to be some of the most naive and even insulting things I've read in quite a while.
How many Chinese people do you know?

Hundreds. Married to one.

How many Mainland Chinese people do you know?

Again, hundreds.

Respect for authority means that they will shut up even though they know it is wrong? Did you even read the article I linked to in the first post? Most, if not all athletes do not speak out because they can't through fear of the consequences.

The threat of getting squished like a bug will do that to you.

Do you remember the students' protests in Tiannemen Square?
Those students were in a position to speak out because they are not 100% relying on the Government for their livelyhood. The same cannot be said for athletes, especially athletes selected for global events such as the Olympics or the World Championships.

There is also the point that not everyone even cares about politics. They just run (swim, jump etc) real well and thats all they know.

How much (bad) press did that bring to China? How much political damage did that do?

Lots. Some.

How much money does the Olypmics bring to the Host country?

Not much. Its what it brings afterwards that can be the big bucks, but its not a guarentee. Montreal took a bath.

How much of the world is focussing on China for the games?

Probably only a third at best.

How much face would China lose if other countries openly protest by not participating?

Depends on the country doing it. If Angola doesn't go, nobody notices. If the US doesn't go, the crap hits the fan.

Boycotting Chinese products is one way to make a point but that just hurts their pockets; it does little to damage their public image, which I should point again, is strictly controlled (i.e blown up) in China.

Wrong. Hitting someone's pocket book is the single best way to get them to change. An out of work and starving population is one that is going to take on their own government.

What better time to make a stand when you have cameras from around the world looking in, especially considering that most foriegn press isn't allowed to film there without permissions and escorts.

If you agree that the selction of China is a suitable host for the Olympic games, then does that mean you think that coercion and extortion and blackmailing through threats of violence and loss of home/livelihood for your family, of your own nations' athletes fulfills:

Turn that question on its head. How would withholding the Olypics from China promote them to change?

"Building a Peaceful and Better World Through Sport and the Olympic Ideal"

This is like the first line of resume explaining the kind of job you're looking to do. Its all fluff. BS.

The short of it is quite simple;
China does not fulfill the Olympic Ideal so why were they selected as host?

See previous

While some of it is related to global politics some of it is to do with the IOC. Sure the games shouldn't be political but that does also mean that they shouldn't be selected because of their economic and hence global strength.

They should be selected precisely because they are the largest (population) county on the planet, have never had the Olympics and their economy can handle the games.

This isn't the first time they had applied for hosting of the games but nothing has changed in the country's behaviour since the first application so what qualifies them for hosts this time, especially if you do look at the politics. That is also why an action against the games is justified because it is also an attack of sorts on the IOC.

Most places have bids that fail, but remember, they don't fail because of politics, they fail because some other city offered to do more for the games (invest more cash).


On with the games!

[drunken monkey]

So are you saying that there is not a problem with how China treats their own people/athletes because in my mind, it is either one of two ways; you either think that their treatment is wrong and hence China does not qualify for hosting or that it is all ok and that China does nothing wrong.

Yes, I'm aware that the blurb line is just fluff but it is still something to bear in mind. The Olympics are supposed to be something more than just a sporting event (and not simply another world athletics competition) and part of the something is to do with making the world a better place through sports; something that China's behaviour does not fulfill. That blurb line is supposed to be one of the key tenets of the Modern Olympic Ideal. If you're not going to uphold it then what's the point?

What would not giving them the games have achieved?
It would have, if also backed by some of the right reasons, made them lose face on a global forum, one that they cannot control. The Olympic games were/are something they wanted because they wanted to show the world that they are the best and by giving in so easily, you've given them exactly what they wanted.

Bizzarely though, if you read the article about the fireworks and little girl, it seems that despite getting what they want, they still manage to shoot themselves in the foot and show the world just what kind of things they will do in order to present a good face.

Incidentally, I recall something reading somewhere something about nigh on 20 Billion was invested in Beijing during the 10 years leading up to the games.

But again, I want to point out, this isn't entirely based on any sort of irational hatred of China; part of this is also disappointment in the IOC. I recall reading somewhere else that China was actually one of the lowest scoring Cities (according to the IOC's selection criteria) out of those who applied initially so its selection for the vote is suspect in the first place.

If anything, it indicates that perhaps it's not China's treatment of their atheltes and their people that is wrong but just how corrupt and hypocritical the IOC is.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

The Olympic games were/are something they wanted because they wanted to show the world that they are the best and by giving in so easily, you've given them exactly what they wanted.

IMO a moot issue so I don't understand why you continually harp over it.

Obviously at this point in time China appears to be the best based on the performance of their athletes. Ranked #1 with the U.S. at #2. Of course subject to change. See link below.

2008 Olympic Overall Medal Standings

[drunken monkey]

It is a moot point.
I guess I'm just also a little disappointed how little people really do seem to care.