Bad fuel pump? 95 3.8L 158k miles

[wiswind]

My '96 3.8L fuel filter has a simple plastic "duck bill" clip to hold the rear most fuel line on.
The FRONT one...the shiny crome one is the one that needs the fuel line tool.....and it can be a pain....as you now well know.
I usually have to wiggle the thing around .....push the plastic part of the fuel line disconnect tool along the metal "shaft" of the fuel filter.....up inside the crome connector on the fuel line.....push it up in there with 1 hand while wiggling the connector......even try pressing the connector more ONTO the fuel filter.......or pulling it toward the OFF direction.....try the ON first.......if that does not work....try the OFF direction.....you want to get the disconnect tool up inside the connector enough to push the little "fingers" away from the fuel filter fitting enough to permit the filter to slide out......
NOTE: you may have to use the 3/8" one if you don't have a 5/16" one in your set.....which is what I have been doing.

Now.....YES you do have the possiblility of having the "sock" filter on the fuel pickup causing the problem.....
In order to know this.....you have to remove the fuel tank....and remove the fuel pump assembly....
In my mind.....at that point....you are best off installing another fuel pump/filter assembly and be done with it.
You don't want to have to go back in there again because it was the part that you did not replace.

Don't be too hard on your shop......this is not a hard failure by any means.......but we have read enough posts in this forum about fuel pumps that became weak and/or intermittent.
After the money that you have spent.....they most likely don't want to throw expensive parts/repairs at it....
A "maybe it's a fuel filter....just change it" is one thing....for $15-$20........but a "Maybe it is this $300 repair" is a whole other thing.

I agree with the above post......the oil pressure issue was not related at ALL to any possible fuel issue at the time.
The oil pump speed is based upon the RPM.....engine speed.....nothing else....so you had an issue with that first motor.

[searcherrr]

I want to really thank all you guys for sticking with me. If I could pass food and drinks of your choosing to you through the web I would. I highly appreciate everyone's time.

I went to see the mechanic today (yesterday now) after calling them on the phone to check status. Apparently they couldn't locate the cam synchronizer and cps cause they had the same shitty diagram that I have though I had found an additional diagram that they didn't and we were able to locate it. In short I brought it to this guy specifically cause he's known for being technical and is the only other shop in my town I'd trust to go to.

Due to the fact that I had a new engine put in at a non-Ford place and since there is so much else that is "new" on the van, his expert hunch is that the synchronizer isn't set right with the appropriate proprietary tool which would cause engine timing to not be in sync.

There are actually 2 tools: T89P-12200-A - the main one and I will probably need the other one too: T96T-12200-A
These tools are now also known as:
OTC 6467 -Ford Cam Alignment Tool (T89P-12200-A)
OTC 6469 - Ford Cam Sensor Synch/Positioning Tool (T96T-12200-A)

I just ordered these off Ebay and have to provide it to the shop to get this done.

I suppose the big question is should I have him replace the CPS and Synchronizer (since we know it is a common faulty part) while he is in there? Does anyone have part numbers for these?

I'm still BAFFLED that still that no one (even at this shop) wants to discuss the fuel pressure. I left the fuel gauge attached to the rail just so it could be seen at all times, but another realization came to me when I was over there yesterday. I have updated my graphic:


I pinched the wrong line in my "fuel pressure return line" pinch test. After zooming in big time in Adobe and color coding the lines its clear to me that the return line is closet to the intake manifold and not the fender. Coincidentally this is flipped apparently on the 3.0L engines which I find strange, but whatever. The tech confirmed too while I was there that it was the return hose. So when I pinched the line the pressure dropping 1-2 psi when I did it was a false test result.

I may go back over there tomorrow and pinch the TRUE return line to see what happens just so I know for once that something is TRUE or FALSE!

Thanks wiswind. I feel better knowing this fuel issue wasn't related to the 1st new engine being defunct issue.

philkb - Yeap, I pinched the wrong one. Tech and enhanced diagram confirm it. Thanks Phil.

LeSabre97mint - I really agree with ya here. That lil several key flick test was my own idea. What is interesting to me is that it held pressure at each of the observed PSIs. I asked the tech about it not holding "any" pressure overnight and he didn't seem to react to it much. He did admit the idle and 2500rpm psi was "slightly" below the spec though. If the cam resetting and/or replacement doesn't fix this issue 1st thing I'm gonna have'm do is replace the fuel filter and I'll recheck the PSI stuff. Thanks man.

12Ounce - See what I said to LeSabre97mint. Thanks man.

Again, thank you all for sticking with me and for your time. I feel like this is closer to getting resolved cause we have some "new" test data and for several months there was just none cause I just got tired of dealing with it all.

[searcherrr]

I go to motorcraft.com
Plug in my VIN - 1995 3.8L Windstar

Navigate:
Ignition, Wire Sets, Cables >

Coils, Modules, and Other Ignition >

"New Distributor" ???

Is "New Distributor" another way of saying camshaft synchronizer assembly?
It lists # DA2088 as motorcraft #
When clicked it reveals: F2SZ 12A362 AA

....which when you pull up "F2SZ 12A362 AA" on a FORD OEM parts site it says its for the "SUPERCHARGED" version of the 3.8L engine? HUH!?!?!

Does my 95 year Windstar share the same camshaft with the supercharged version?

Are the 3.0L and 3.8L using the same synchro etcc...? I saw in the book that they share the common factory number of 12A362, but 12A362 is merely a partial part number. I didn't realize that the synchro was/is different by year.

From GrahamParts.com (Possibles)?????????
F2SZ 12A362 AA --- SYNCHRONIZER ASY --- Details
F58Z 12A362 B --- SYNCHRONIZER ASY - ENG CTRL ML --- Details
F58Z 12A362 BA --- SYNCHRONIZER ASY --- Details
F67Z 12A362 AAB --- SYNCHRONIZER ASY --- Details
F6TZ 12A362 CA --- SYN ASY - ENG CONTR MLTPL FUNC --- Details
F6TZ 12A362 CB --- SYNCHRONIZER ASY --- Details
F7TZ 12A362 AC --- SYNCHRONIZER ASY --- Details
F8DZ 12A362 AA --- SYNCHRONIZER ASY --- Details
XF2Z 12A362 AA --- SYNCHRONIZER ASY --- Details
XL5Z 12A362 AB --- SYNCHRONIZER ASY --- Details

[searcherrr]

You know this is all starting to make sense guys.

I'm reading posts about the camshaft synchronizer and seeing a lot of people say it sounds like a squealing pig. For me quite frequently (yet i've always ignored it; go figure the one thing I ignore is a real clue) I hear this squealing sound, but ONLY just as soon as I've turned off a HOT the engine and the longer the trip is the worse the sound gets and now that I think about it the engine would do what its doing today and that was back when I had the old engine so its definitely something I transffered over to the new one.

The sound is like a fading decrescendo (for those in music) whine that sounds very similar to me like someone slowly letting air out of the squeezed lips of a balloon. Is this familiar to ya'll?

[searcherrr]

I'm debating changing out the CPS and Synchro myself, but I do not know how to set the engine at TDC before diassembling. Does anyone have a good guide (and pics) of this written somewhere?

The Ford CD manual to me is pretty vague, especially on this procedure.

[12Ounce]

I went thru the synchroniser squealing episode long ago ... ended up replacing the synchro with a new one. But looking back, it may not have been necessary. The upper part of the synchro gets very poor lubrication, the oil has to be lifted upwards from the open block. There is a winding groove cut in the rotating shaft for the purpose of lifting the oil ... but after a little gunk forms in the groove, that's all "out of business"; and things get really dry. If a person occassionally moves the sensor aside and drops a few drops of clean motor oil along the shaft, the squealing can be controlled (... at least, its what I now do.)

You can remove the synchronizer without any regard to TDC. You just have to make sure the synchronizer gets back in its original location ... with its "wand" pointing in exactly the same direction. Best to take a photo before removing anything. (Of course, this assumes the synchro was timed correctly to start with.)

[12Ounce]

I have done the synchro removal/installation several times. With and without the alignment tool. I think I understand what's going on pretty well ... But what I haven't yet figured out is the "help" illustrations in the Ford shop manual or the Haynes. Any high school kid could make better drawings!

TDC is very difficult to establish on this engine. Not only is the crank shaft pulley poorly marked ... you can't see the pulley for all the accessories mounted on the engine front.

[12Ounce]

More useless info ...
.
http://www.dormanproducts.com/catalo...chronizers.pdf

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

I went thru the synchroniser squealing episode long ago ... ended up replacing the synchro with a new one. But looking back, it may not have been necessary. The upper part of the synchro gets very poor lubrication, the oil has to be lifted upwards from the open block. There is a winding groove cut in the rotating shaft for the purpose of lifting the oil ... but after a little gunk forms in the groove, that's all "out of business"; and things get really dry. If a person occassionally moves the sensor aside and drops a few drops of clean motor oil along the shaft, the squealing can be controlled (... at least, its what I now do.)

You can remove the synchronizer without any regard to TDC. You just have to make sure the synchronizer gets back in its original location ... with its "wand" pointing in exactly the same direction. Best to take a photo before removing anything. (Of course, this assumes the synchro was timed correctly to start with.)

Yeah, we're going to be resetting it to TDC (resetting timing) cause the mechanic thinks its not set right. In any case it could be set right, but just be "bad" which is what I think is the case now that I know about this squealing/whine it does when you turn off the engine.

Dorman doesn't make one for the 1995 engine. I already checked into it.
For my year this isn't an easy product to find. I may buy 2.

Would procedures for my 95 engine vary from all the other years? Would it by chance be easier? Looking at it yesterday I kinda thought you might have to remove the coil pack to get it out, but I didn't have a "good" look at it.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

More useless info ...
.

12Ounce - Since you say you've done this several times I need to know for sure here if the squealing/whining noise you hear is during engine running or after its turned off.

I believe I have heard this sound on long trips over 100miles, but I have definitely heard it on those same trips after stopping for a break at the very moment the engine was turned off and then is "whinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnness down" like a balloon with air escaping from it.

I didn't go by the shop today and do the squeeze fuel line test. I may pass over there tomorrow, but I'm pretty well decided to trust this guy's judgement on the synchronizer at the moment.

I'd feel better about trying this myself if I knew how difficult the job may get. Below is the procedure from the Ford CD for my 95 engine, but I just don't believe it. Upon looking at the CPS it looks like the coil pack and maybe (maybe) the alternator would need to come out too. Anyone got experience with a 95 3.8L engine?

=========== FORD CD-ROM 95 3.8L ENGINE INSTRUCTIONS========================
Camshaft Position Sensor -- 3.8L
SPECIAL SERVICE TOOL(S) REQUIRED
Tool Number: Syncro Positioning Tool - T96T-12200-A

CAUTION:
Prior to removal of the camshaft position sensor (CMP sensor) (12126), set cylinder No. 1 to 0 degrees top dead center (TDC) of compression stroke. Then note the position of the camshaft position sensor electrical connector. The installation procedure requires that the connector be located in the same position.

Removal

1. Disconnect battery ground cable (14301).
2. Disconnect fuel charging wiring connector from stator assembly.
3. Remove stator assembly retaining screws and stator assembly from synchronizer assembly.
4. If synchronizer assembly is to be removed from the cylinder block (6010), proceed with Removal Step 5. If synchronizer assembly is not being removed, proceed to installation Step 6.
5. Remove hold-down clamp (12270) (bolt and washer assembly).
6. NOTE: The oil pump intermediate shaft (6A618) should be removed with the synchronizer assembly.

Remove synchronizer assembly from cylinder block.


Installation

CAUTION:
If the replacement synchronizer assembly sensor housing does not contain a plastic locator cover tool, a special service tool such as Syncro Positioning Tool T96T-12200-A, one must be obtained prior to installation of the replacement synchronizer assembly. Failure to follow this procedure will result in improper synchronizer assembly alignment. This will result in the fuel system being out of time with the engine (6007), possibly causing engine damage.

1. If the plastic locator cover tool is not attached to the replacement synchronizer assembly, attach Syncro Positioning Tool T96T-12200-A as follows:

a. Engage synchronizer assembly vane into the radial slot of the tool.
b. Rotate tool on synchronizer assembly until tool boss engages notch in synchronizer assembly.
2. Transfer oil pump intermediate shaft from old synchronizer assembly to replacement synchronizer assembly.
3. Install synchronizer assembly so that drive gear engagement occurs when arrow on locator tool is pointed approximately 30 degrees counterclockwise from the rear face of the cylinder block. This step will locate camshaft position sensor electrical connector in the preremoval position.
4. Install hold-down clamp (washer and bolt) and tighten bolt to 20-30 N-m (15-22 lb-ft).
5. Remove Syncro Positioning Tool T89P-12200-A.

CAUTION:
If camshaft position sensor electrical connector is not positioned properly, DO NOT reposition the connector by rotating the synchronizer assembly. This will result in the fuel system being out of time with the engine, possibly causing engine damage. Remove the synchronizer assembly and repeat installation procedure, beginning with Step 1.

6. Install CMP sensor and retaining screws. Tighten screws to 2.5-3.5 N-m (22-31 lb-in).
7. Connect fuel charging wiring connector to camshaft position sensor stator assembly.

NOTE:
When the battery has been disconnected and reconnected, some abnormal drive symptoms may occur while the powertrain control module (PCM) (12A650) relearns its adaptive strategy. The vehicle may need to be driven 16 km (10 miles) or more to relearn the strategy.

8. Connect battery ground cable.
================================================== ======================

I get all that I think. I'm just worried about properly setting the engine to TDC (assuming its already out of time spec) and mainly what all I will need to remove to get the CPS and Synchro out. I guess when I receive the tools I've ordered it'll be intuitive to me to use them. Its very hard to picture this stuff from text when you've never done it before in real life.

[12Ounce]

I've removed/installed the synchro many times ... but only had the screeching once. I do not remember any noise as the engine was stopping ... only random chirping when running.

I would suggest removing the sensor and dropping in some oil just to see if that changes the nature of the noise ... if not, you may be hearing something elso altogether.

[wiswind]

Did this camshaft sensor syncro get transfered from the old motor to the new one?
This has not been enough time for the new motor to have built up sludge in there to prevent lubrication of the syncro.

A good rebuilder (and Jasper is rated at the top from what I have seen) will have given the unit a super good cleaning.

This is another case for not going for those extended Oil Change Intervals (OCI) that some people push.
I use a good synthetic oil....and keep my OCI at about 5K miles.....and still put a dose of Auto RX in with each oil change.
I have suspected that the camshaft syncro issue was caused by just such a situation as 12ounce mentions.....
I still have my original syncro in there......at 200K miles.

[12Ounce]

The Ginko Biloba is NOT working!

I thought I would disassemble an old synchro shaft assembly ... just to make photos showing the groove in the shaft. I did disassemble the one that came out of my '99 Winnie ... just happened to still be lying around the shop. There ain't no groove in the shaft! Don't know what I was remembering ... but it is not this baby!

Its a wonder this thing lasts as long as it does! We all better get to dripping oil on top of the shaft ... for a little lubrication at least. I'll try to make some photos when I get things cleaned up.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by wiswind

Did this camshaft sensor syncro get transfered from the old motor to the new one?
This has not been enough time for the new motor to have built up sludge in there to prevent lubrication of the syncro.

A good rebuilder (and Jasper is rated at the top from what I have seen) will have given the unit a super good cleaning.

This is another case for not going for those extended Oil Change Intervals (OCI) that some people push.
I use a good synthetic oil....and keep my OCI at about 5K miles.....and still put a dose of Auto RX in with each oil change.
I have suspected that the camshaft syncro issue was caused by just such a situation as 12ounce mentions.....
I still have my original syncro in there......at 200K miles.

I don't believe anyone I checked with (and I probably checked with 4 or 5 engine reman'er's and manufacturers) said they included ANYTHING else besides the new oil pump and for whatever reason this was some "special thing" for them to include. If you ask me part of engine rebuilding should definitely include ALL accessories/sensors installed and ready to go. I know why they don't do it, but I think its stupid to sell engines bare like that.

Jasper did offer an engine installation kit which included several new things that would've been worn and/or best to replace (plugs, wires, sensors, etc..), but I opted not to get it cause it was a few hundred more dollars & I'd replaced so many other things already very recently as well as during the engine installation.

So I believe the synchro in there now is the old one especially since on the original engine I heard the screeching/whining and the old engine ALSO did this strange almost stalling idle, but for whatever reason it was much less prevalent. Thats why I'm feeling good about what this tech has come up with because its focusing on something I believe to be from the old engine.

Thoughts on the synchro lubrication - If it has a bearing wouldn't that bearing have to be lubed internally already? It would seem like it wouldn't matter that this part be lubed huh... except for at the contact points of the gear at the bottom?

Wiswind - You da champ ! lol - I'm sure your OCI and AutoRX methods are the reasons yours hasn't gone bad yet. I wonder... what if you just overfilled the oil a lil bit? Would this have a similar effect to keeping the thing lubed better?

12Ounce - Thanks for the tip. I appreciate you taking the time to go do that.

[tomj76]

I think Dan's got the right diagnosis. The pressure should be at least 30 psi after the first time the key is turned on. Since it isn't, then the pump is faulty, there is a blockage in the supply line or there is air in the fuel line/supply.

The first place to check is the fuel filter since it is the most accessable component in the system. You should be able to blow air through it easily.

Fuel filters can be difficult to get off. I once broke the sender tubes trying to get the filter off my Chevy. I never did get the 'quick connect' fuel line fitting off the metal tube. Those Dorman fuel line connectors can be hard to find (I eventually found them at Car Quest, but even a Chevy dealer didn't carry them). However even if you have the connectors, they are tough to put on the plastic fuel line without the tool. In the end, going to a shop that can do this easily is a good deal. I'm not sure how Ford does the fuel lines on the Windstar, as I have not yet messed with them, so things could be different for the better.

There is a test in the manual for the fuel pressure bleed down rate after the car is shut off. It is something like 5 psi change after 5 minutes, but I don't remember the exact numbers. That would account for any leaking by the injectors, the fuel pump check valve or the regulator. I think the book uses this test to verify one aspect of regulator operation.