I said I'd do something about it...

[Tony]

E85-30% cheaper than 87 octane, but requires about 30% more to do the same in a normal low compression engine.

If E85 is in a high compression engine, and everything is tuned for it, it will be as efficient as gasoline, cheaper, and higher octane. When I build the new motor for my CRX, I plan on it running on E85.

[FrodoGT]

I wouldnt mind running it either. But it is in no way as efficient. it requires more fuel to get the same power. But is safer to run more power with because of its higher octane. Id love to run e85 as a race fuel or even on a high power build, but on a daily basis its not totally worth it.

[Christ]

Octane doesn't determine the difficulty of spark-based ignition, it determines auto-ignition characteristics... of course, another way to get "free octane" is manipulating combustion chamber shape/flow design characteristics.

Gas engines can run compression levels over 14:1 on pump gas with the proper tuning. Which tells you that Octane isn't all that important when you're tuning.

If you don't believe any of this, that's fine, I tend to sway from "common knowledge" anyway.

I will tell you this though... the reason NASCAR limits compression on it's vehicles to roughly 12:1 is b/c back in the late 70's to early 80's, Comp and a few other companies joined up to make it possible to run 18:1 and 19:1 compression ratios on the pisswater they had for gas back then.

[Christ]

E85, by the way, is Ethanol and Gasoline... Ethanol is an Ether, which is an alcohol, which is not oil based, and helps to dissipate oil, which means that they had to add more chemicals and detergents and lubricants to the fuel, all of which are either mineral based or polymer based, which is why E85 doesn't run all that great in a normal engine.

Gasoline (normal) has Toluene and Xylene already in it. They are considered "Aromatics". Both are oil-based, meaning they provide proper lubricity, rather than taking it away, both have the same spark-ignition temps as gas, yet they both have a higher auto-ignition temp, which is where Octane levels come in.

Most people don't see a gain in HP or mileage from using higher octane fuel b/c their engine doesn't require it, therefore isn't tuned for it. put higher octane in, you can advance your timing and lean out your fuel curve slightly, which helps provide more power, and better combustion efficiency.

[Christ]

Oh, by the way, if you buy Toluene in 55 gal drums, it's $1 or more cheaper than gasoline per gallon, and can be run straight, with tuning for fuel/ignition curves.

117 Octane out of the box. (Barrel)

[Christ]

http://theoldone.com/articles/Larrys...rrys_Civic.htm

Originally Posted by Larry "The Old One"

"I've milled the head to net stock valve to deck clearances, which resulted in a chamber volume of 41.3cc's. With .010" deck clearance and a .030" Cometic head gasket the static compression equates to 13.21-1, which I believe (from my experience with the 2-liter in my ITR) will be manageable on pump-gas."

Originally Posted by Larry "The Old One"

"The ITR’s B Series engine (http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/) has been an impressive piece since day one. It’s torque and drivability continue to astound me, and with it’s 13.4-1 compression ratio, it also achieves outstanding fuel mileage which is becoming more important by the day."

Originally Posted by Larry "The Old One"

02-20-06 We spent about a half hour fooling with the fuel curve in VTEC this morning. This is the one and only full pull we did. I was pulling back on the throttle at 9000 RPM.

Originally Posted by Larry "The Old One"

Originally Posted by Larry "The Old One"

Now that the weather here has blessed us with temperatures of less than 100 degrees, I'll begin thinking about the rear fenders, but it's still going to be some time before I'm ready to do them. Next up for the car is a fabricated induction tube, some intake manifold mods, a larger throttle body, and longer secondary tubes for the header. Since building this engine, we've been hard on R&D here, and the changes I've outlined have netted some pretty sweet results on a street engine that's identical to the one in my car. An early dyno test sheet on that engine is below.....

Originally Posted by Larry "The Old One"

After measuring front toe-in and confirming that all was "straight", I drove the car to a local shop for a quick dyno test to see what the manifold, throttle body, and header modifications had netted. After a couple runs, I advanced the intake cam 1.5 degrees, and we were rewarded with the following pull.

This run was made running pump gas on a 104 degree August day, with heat-soaked intake air temps of 140 degrees. I believe that 280 whp is obtainable with a combination of better atmospheric conditions and a more scientifically designed induction tube/filter combination, but I can tell you this from experience.....engines that exhibit torque "bulges" like this at the bottom of the gear accelerate like there's no tomorrow....and of course, the car's even more fun to drive now.

Quotes taken from: http://theoldone.com/articles/Larrys...rrys_Civic.htm

Everyone who doubts what I say about Octane and boost and running pump gas in HO engines, should read just about anything on this site. "www.TheOldOne.com"

[Tony]

Yes, E85 is 85% Ethanol, and gas, along with other additives. But with the correct tuning, it can be as efficient as gas. Hell, Formula cars run on more ethanol than that, granted thats on a totally different level, but I think on a high compression engine with the correct tuning, e85 is highly possible.

Anyways, this is kind of going away from what Dropzone is after.

[kris]

I have learned through experience, that you cannot trust everything that Larry says, or has said. Yes, he is very smart, but somewhat of a mad scientist.

[Christ]

Oh, yeah, I'm aware of that lol... I've actually had a few conversations with him both on the phone and online... I'd rather talk to him on the phone than online, honestly, b/c I think he loses his train of thought too fast with so many things to pay attention to.

What I actually spoke with him about was having parts mirror-machined, i.e. having a set of pistons and head cc's mirrored to each other to increase compression and flow tendencies.

What I ended up with for an answer was that it would be better over a certain range, b/c of the harmonics that it would cause with flow, but the dollar for dollar price vs. HP increases probably wouldn't make it worthwhile for other than a race engine where there isn't a budget.

He also said something about considering a B-series on my next project (jokingly).

And Tony, the potential is there with E85, the issue is still that there have to be more detergents and additives to the fuel to maintain cylinder lubricity. Tuning aside, it's not cool to spend that long working on an engine and have it die w/in 30k b/c you can't maintain upper cylinder lubrication.

And, that's exactly what ethanol does. (When not used with other methods of lubrication.)

This isn't exactly off topic, and the original topic is post-poned for now anyway, so lets play out the alternative fuels chatter and ways to improve gas mileage and output?

[readallen]

lots of variables, little controls, kinds interesting - so have you tries some of theses additives out yet-
heres something- but kinda wierd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnc7M0JDjok

[Christ]

That's kind of interesting... I"ll have to keep contact and see how many more of those videos come out... if it's true, those gains are quite impressive.

Most insteresting is the fact that he's using the same additives as I was going to.. but, like I said, this project has been post-poned indefinitely for me.

[Christ]

K, so I semi-started here... I had some leftover Xylene after cleaning up my tools from my Caulking job... so I decided "why not..."

Normal average atm in my Civic is 32 mpg. (Used to be 45 or so, not sure what happened.)

Last Sunday night, when I got gas for my car, I added just less than a quart of raw Xylene (Xylol) before fueling my car with the typical 87 octane garbage.

So far, here's what's happened:
11.75 gallons of 87 octane Gasoline
.250 gallons (1 quart) raw Xylol

So far, my car has lowered itself 4 inches, changed it's own paint, found a cure for its cancer spots, shined up the rims, turned into a turbo/supercharged monster w/ a C32A in it, decided to run for president, lost it's chance at presidency because of an emotional outburst on public television, then decided to endorse the candidate that made it "cry", and creates it's own nitrous from the driver's enthusiasm level.

It also idles more smoothly than it used to.

(Obviously, only one of these things is true. Come on... you didn't think a miracle would happen did you?)

In all honesty... it does idle more smoothly... it doesn't seem to accelerate faster, but I don't take it above 4k or so anymore, however, it DOES seem to have more "holding" power... as in, I can hold speeds on hills and such, w/o using WOT.

It doesn't sputter when it's cold anymore, only one skip every few seconds while idling, rather than a few skips every few seconds.

It's only been 47 miles on this tank, but a cursory glance shows that fuel mileage seems relatively unaffected... this dose isn't even close to the "recommended" dose tho... which is 10-15% Xylol per tank. In the future, if results stay close to what they are now, or improve over time, I'll continue adding more until I reach the 10-15% "recommendation", and see what happens from there.

[Christ]

Result of the first dose of Xylene, 1.35mpg increase.

Went from 32MPG even to 33.35 MPG, and the car idled more smoothly, no hesitation etc.

keep in mind, the dizzy isn't timed correctly either since I haven't had a lower timing cover since I put the engine in.

I'm running a second tank of the same fuel to make sure whether I will get the same mileage or not, w/o the xylene added.

Basically, if I get the same mileage, it wasn't due to the xylene... if I get less mileage, it WAS due to the xylene, and I'll add more next time I get some.

The second tank is from the same batch, same pump, at the same gas station. This is a control tank, testing the actual result for validity.

There would be several explanations if I get the same mileage on this tank as the last one, one of which would be that the excess Xylene helped clean stuff out and make the engine run more efficiently.