98 3.8 rough idle missing? tried many things :(

[derffred]

Update....

Since I could not find Berrymans here in Canada I bought another can of seafoam and put the whole thing in my gas tank I will see if that makes any difference,

Failing that I will try replacing the injector in #4

today while sitting in line at the gas station I found that whne the van was running in Park or Nuetral it was behaving not so bad but in gear with my foot on the brake it was a lot more rough. but even sitting in Park the check engine light would still flash from time to time.

[Ed_Strong]

If you can't find Berryman's B12 then see if you can find SeaFoam in your area... link HERE. It's very versatile as one product fits many aplications and should perform just aswell or better.

[derffred]

Ya I thought that too (in an earlier post I mentioned that I used Sea Foam I used 1/3 in the intake 1/3 in the crankcase and the last 1/3 in the tank.)

This morning I bought another can of seafoam and put the whole can in the gas tank and drove the van for about 40km tonight and I did not have the check engine light flash at all, on the highway it seemed to be running much smoother though at idle in gear with my foot on the brake it is still running rough fluctuating between 500 and 800 rpm.

When I got home I disconected the battery so I will see if the check engine light comes back again on Tuesday.

fingers crossed x x

I will see how the rest of the tank full of gas suns

[Ed_Strong]

Originally Posted by derffred

(in an earlier post I mentioned that I used Sea Foam I used 1/3 in the intake 1/3 in the crankcase and the last 1/3 in the tank.)

If you had a 1/3 can of SeaFoam in a full tank of gas is not going to do much as it gets too dilluted. You need a full can on full tank to be efective, hopefully you'll see an improvement this time around.

[derffred]

well so much for that idea

It ran great for about 20 minutes today and then the flashing light came back and it may even be running even rougher now!

I phoned another garage that speciallizes in Engine rebuilding and told him what Ihave done so far and he asked me what brand of plugs and wires I installed and after telling him NGK plugs and Champion Wires he said that he had another customer that had a missing problem and they just switched back to Motocraft (Ford) Wires and Autolite Plugs and the problems went away, I know some people in here said Autolite too, so I am thinking of switching oer to see if that makes any difference and while I am at it I will inspect the coil too.

Interesting today I was telling someone at the bank of my troubles and he wondered if my cat may be plugged, will this cause it too?

he says that when he had a plugged cat he put Premium Lamp oil(1/3 bottle in his tank, I read the lable and it is made from Petroleum Distallate one of the same ingrediants as Sea Foam.

[derffred]

Ok, I think I am making progress......

The way I am looking athis now is that I hav or had multiple problems and just have to tackle them one at a time.

Also even though a lot of us have had the same symptoms there can be many causes.


since I last reported here is what I have done.....


when to the wreckers and picked up a new style black plastic DPFE sensor, TPS sensor, MAF sensor, IAC Valve and 3 fuel injectors.

(by the way I looked at 3 windstars there that had the intake plenum off and all of the EGR Ports were plugged on all 3 vans (1 had only 120km the other 2 both had over 200k)

So I tried add all of the sensors a couple at a time and each time made no difference, then I took off the plenum again and took out the front 3 injectors (4-5-6) and cleaned all 3 of them and switched out #4 with one of the ones from the wrecker that I cleaned, then disonected the battery to clear the computer and then took it for a drive, it felt good for about 15 minutes on the highway (just a minor vibration) but when I got off the highway I had the rough Idle again

I drove back home on the highway again and when I got off the highway my engine light was flashing once again.

I went to a car electrician I know and asked him to put his code reader on it and he saw that cyl 2 and 5 had misfires and also codes 171 and 174 and a O-2 sensor he cleared the codes and then I bought a code reader from him
http://www.mactools.com/Mac/Mac+Prod...can+Tools/ET50
so now I can clear the codes my self and recheck them after every thing I do

I then drove home and by the time I got home (15 minutes) the engine light was flashing again, so I checked the codes again
and this is now what I have

po302 cyl 2 misfire
po171 pd sytem to lean bank 1
po174 too lean bank 2
edit after the next time out I also got a missfire on #5 (code 305) so another injector will be switched there as well

so next I will try to double check spark and fuel injector on cyl 2 and try again

Read this on one of the stickys so I think I am on the right track with the injectors...

This group of codes indicate a condition that the indicated oxygen sensor is reporting.
These codes are almost NEVER caused by a defective oxygen sensor or sensor circuit.

P0171 Oxygen sensor reporting too lean condition on bank 1 (rear bank)
P0172 Oxygen sensor reporting too rich condition on bank 1

P0174 Oxygen sensor reporting too lean condition on bank 2 (front bank)
P0175 Oxygen sensor reporting too rich condition on bank 2

Lean codes almost always are a result of a vaccum leak (all years and engines).
1999 3.8L and newer windstars refer to sticky post on P0171 / P0174, this TSB does NOT apply to 1998 and older or 3.0L engine.
Lean codes can also be a result of clogged fuel injector(s) or fuel delivery issue.
Rich codes can be caused by a leaking fuel injector or misfire due to no spark to one or more cylinders
Lean and rich codes can be caused by MAF issues (try cleaning)


I was reading another thread where the guy said that his problem was the Crankshaft pully/balancer, that makes sense for me too because when I drive down the highway the engine is vibrating where I feel it in the steering wheel. and I opened the hood to watch the pullys while it is idling and I think I see that the crankshaft pully is out of round slightly and the engine is shaking a little too. I do not think this would cause any codes to pop up but it may be another problem that I have.

Is there any other advice for me?

I had booked an appointment at Ford to have them run a diagnostic but they were not to proud of me that I have been switching out all these parts (with used ones for some) and I got the impression that they would take longer to do the diagnostic because of it (which would mean more charges than the 1 hour $96.00 they wanted to charge me) anyways since I bought that code reader I cancled my appointment and I will keep plugging away at this my self.


with all of your helps too of course which is very much appreciated

am also thinking about if I should be looking at crank sensor or camshaft sensor or maybe even switching out the PCM? luckily my Wrecker I deal with does not charge me as much as most wreckers do (he is a metal recycler rather than a regular auto wrecker.)


edit see codes above

[derffred]

It is fixed.... WOOT!

today I replaced #2 and #5 fuel injectors (with used ones from the wreckers) and I also found a thin white vacumm tube that connects to some junction for other vacumms against the firewall that was snapped off so I fixed that.

edit.... I found out that the hose that was snapped was for the "Evaporative Emissions Control System" (EVAP)
in the Haynes book it states.....
Poor Idle, stalling and poor drivability can be caused by an inoperative vapor management valve, damaged canister,split or cracked hoses or hoses conected to the wrong ports So I think that was a major problem I had!

put it all back together and drove it all day long and it now purrs like a kitten.

I only have a po153 code [pd] 02 sensor circuit Slow Response bank 2 Sensor 1

Can soneone tell me which O2 sensor that is and where it is located?

I would like to take it out and see if it is dirty.

It is not giving me the check engine light just the code in the code reader, will this hurt the engine if not fixed?

[wiswind]

Bank #2 is the FRONT bank of cylinders.
Easy way to remember.....on FORD engines, bank 1 is the bank with cylinder #1.

So.....this is the front bank.....and sensor 1 is the "upstream" sensor.....which is the one that you can see when you look down at the exhaust pipe coming off of the front manifold......you can see it when you lift the hood and look down there.
Of course....it is easiest to remove it from the bottom.

Personally, when replacing oxygen sensors.....I like to replace the "upstream" (before the catalytic converter) sensors as a pair....and pay a little extra and get Genuine Motorcraft brand.....as they will be made to Motorcraft Specifications.
The reason that I recommend replacing the upstream sensors as a pair is that the switching speed does slow down as they age....and I like for the upstream sensors to be as close in performance as each other as possible....(matching).
The PCM uses the upstream sensors to control the engine......fuel trim.....which has a major impact on the fuel economy.

The "downstream" sensors serve to monitor the catalytic converters.......and tell you if they are working or not.....and otherwise are not used for engine control.
They also switch at a much slower speed......due to the exhaust parameters not changing as fast as with the upstream sensor location.
For that reason......I don't worry so much about the downstream sensors being matched.

The new oxygen sensors should come with the antiseeze already on the threads......so they just need to be screwed in.
Personally.....I would unplug ONLY 1 sensor at a time......as it is very easy to get the connectors mixed up.....and this method will prevent you from crossing your wires.

The old sensors......you can get a "oxygen Sensor wrench" at most any auto part store.....it is a standard deep socket with a slot in the side to permit the wires to stick out the side.....while you have the socket on your ratchet and on the sensor.
I would soak the threads (only the threads) with PBlaster or other good rusty thread soaker well ahead of time.
Also....do the job with the exhaust system COLD.

[derffred]

Great info, thanks again

a friend of mine has a 95 windstar and the only code he has is the P0141 Downstream Oxygen sensor bank 1 HEATER circuit malfunction
Downstream sensors monitor the catalytic converter operation


so from what you said above, he has no engine problem... does that mean if anything he needs a cat?, or would he need a sensor?

[mundy5]

Originally Posted by derffred

It is fixed.... WOOT!

today I replaced #2 and #5 fuel injectors (with used ones from the wreckers) and I also found a thin white vacumm tube that connects to some junction for other vacumms against the firewall that was snapped off so I fixed that.

If your discovery is correct, then your injectors might actually be fine. If I were you, I'd keep those injectors and make sure they are cleaned up nice for future use.

Congrats!

[derffred]

yes I kept the injectors, I had the same feeling.

thank you all for your help

[wiswind]

Your friend with the Oxygen sensor heater circuit code has a problem with the heater in that oxygen sensor....or a wiring issue (check the connection(s) first).
This code would not be caused by a problem with the catalytic converter......it is the heater circuit for the oxygen sensor.

There are 4 wires.......2 are for the oxygen sensor (a voltage is generated by the chemical reaction caused by the difference in oxygen content inside the exhaust pipe and the oxygen content in the atmosphere).
The other 2 are for the heater inside the oxygen sensor unit.
The heater heats up the sensor material to the temperature needed for the chemical reaction to take place.
The PCM monitors the current flow through this circuit....and sets a code if it is not within a certain range.
One likely cause would be a open circuit.......could be as simple as a dirty contact inside the connector.....or a broken wire......or a broken heater inside the sensor.

One thing that I like to do......ONLY disconnect ONE oxygen sensor at a time.......so that you will not cross the connectors / sensors when you re-connect.

[derffred]

Thans I will pass this on to my friend

[car3345]

I experienced the same with my 96. By the way, if you put Bosch platinum plugs in, take them out NOW. Some engines do not like those plugs and the 3.8 is one of them. After replacing everything on mine, it ended up being the coil. I replaced it with one from a discount auto store which lasted for 2.5 years and it went again. I then bought a higher quality one and it is still running strong with 140,000 miles on it.

[searcherrr]

Do the 95 3.8L's have the same hose: "thin white plastic vacumm line snapped off going to the evap which is on the firewall" ?

I have seen this in this thread and another regarding the 98, but as I'm still chasing a problem in my van I'm entertaining things I haven't heard of before.