Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[searcherrr]

As if things weren't dragged out enough the f___ing ford direct online place sent me 2 completely different parts than I ordered. The only similarity is the word "CAP" as they sent me a power steering reservoir and cap for it. I believe they sent me someone elses order. Now of course I have to go through the whole damn process of shipping it back and forth.

[searcherrr]

Reshipping: Parts are supposedly on the way.

[searcherrr]

Ok. New dropping resistor and new radiator cap installed.

Problem with almost stalling now seems worse.

New Problem: There's a little capped off spout opposite of the radiator overflow reservoir spout. It is held in place with a small hose clamp and some sort of rubber hose cap. Once it was up to operating temp radiator fluid started coming out of this spot at a pretty fast drip-rate.

Does this possibly mean that the old cap wasn't doing its job? and if so could this result in bad mpg?

Should I look at replacing the cooling fans themselves? or should I hook up OBDII monitoring and see if the computer can tell me something?

I'd have to buy the attachment for use with my computer cause I can't afford an OBDII tool at the moment.

Also Note: The old o2 sensors are reinstalled after my cleaning procedure. There is no CEL light though so I won't believe they are causing this almost stall condition until I can get a logger on the computer.

[searcherrr]

Tests to try remaining on the van

1. LeSabre97mint - Voltage spike test - One good check is to put your volt meter on the battery ground and on a good ground on the body.
Watch the meter when the fan shuts off. You might see a spike or a drop in voltage???.

2. Wiswind - I don't know if a new CCRM would help or not.
Only way to know is to change it.......more money....but then it is old.
Mine needed replacing 2 times......the 2nd time was because the A/C relay was not holding the A/C compressor on.....following the A/C cycling on and off a lot when the A/C charge went down......due to a leak in the evaporator coil.
So....the CCRM might be worth a try.


Things left to try replacing before drawing a complete blank:
ccrm
alternator
bad grounds or wire shorts somewhere that I haven't found?


What would be the symptoms of a voltage regulator going bad?

My A/C had never been serviced till this big event in October (157k miles). I did notice prior to the engine replacement that the a/c switched on and off a lot and I notice that now as well. It didn't have a leak before and always put out very good cold, but I know it does have a leak now since the engine install.

I'm going to try the voltage test LeSabre97mint recommends, but while I'm sure I'll observe something I wonder what that will tell me if anything? If I see a spike is that an alternator going bad? or a short? bad ground? If I see it dropping whats that mean? lol

[searcherrr]

Wait a second. Maybe it is the regulator in the alternator.

1. PCM had to be replaced

2. MAS Replaced 1 day after the PCM had to be replaced because one of its wires at the sensor element itself had popped/severed itself off.

3. IAC had to be replaced just a few months before 1 and 2

4. Dropping resistor had to be replaced recently after engine overheat in October

Now I realize these are wear items and others have replaced them too, but they are all electrical.

The MAS element wire popping off normal?
PCM needing replacement normal?
IAC replacement normal?
Dropping resistor replacement normal?

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but I wonder how many others have replaced all of these items for needing to do so?

[uzzo2]

Originally Posted by searcherrr

Wait a second. Maybe it is the regulator in the alternator.

1. PCM had to be replaced

2. MAS Replaced 1 day after the PCM had to be replaced because one of its wires at the sensor element itself had popped/severed itself off.

3. IAC had to be replaced just a few months before 1 and 2

4. Dropping resistor had to be replaced recently after engine overheat in October

Now I realize these are wear items and others have replaced them too, but they are all electrical.

The MAS element wire popping off normal?
PCM needing replacement normal?
IAC replacement normal?
Dropping resistor replacement normal?

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but I wonder how many others have replaced all of these items for needing to do so?

i've had a similar problem with my 95, lurches at times, it seems to only do it when the van is not good and warm and the a/c compressor kicks on. i just got to where i didn't cut the a/c on until i was on the road. as far as mpg goes, i don't know, i can't afford to fill mine up so i can test it. i know there's a sensor somewhere that idles the engine up when the compressor cuts on, i just don't know where it is.

[searcherrr]

Come to think of it guys (n gals if there are any here) this behavior was present on my previous engine, but it was just not as prevalent or bad. The description here (http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/Engi...SmellFaultyFPR) towards the end of that post:

"After taking a look under the hood, I noticed that when the engine can be seen shaking a great deal more than it should, literally jerking itself back and forth. It often sounds like the engine is just going to cut out, only to rev up again. (it repeats this process indefinitely"

and the description in the next post after it:

"Engine Hesitation: Bad Fuel Pressure Regulator. [Symptoms:] occasional stalling engine at idle; occasional stumble at cruising speed, resulting in 1-2 seconds of deceleration like I'd turned the key off."

That is EXACTLY what my van is doing except that I think because everything else is in such good shape now it won't stall.

The fix for BOTH of those posts was the fuel pressure regulator (FPR).

If it is the FPR perhaps its not completely bad, but going bad because when the cooling fan cuts off fuel pressure is barely feather adjusted and maybe it can't take this small adjustment anymore.

[wiswind]

"MAS wire popping off?".....that is NOT normal.
Replace PCM......also NOT normal to be needed
CCRM?.....if not already replaced......I would replace it.....It has been updated with a improved fuel pump relay since our old vehicles were built.
A/C.....Best to have a qualified person check it out.
Fuel pressure regulator.....not a normal failure item.......
Volage regulator....part of the Alternator assembly.....
Grounds and power connections......if not good connection....all kinds of problems can result.

[12Ounce]

I am so unfamiliar with models other than my '99, I don't have much to offer.

One tip about finding "ground" problems: Sometimes check with voltmeter (not ohmmeter) if possible. This has opportunities especially if the ground conductor carries a sizable current. Of course, you hope always to see 0.000 volts at a ground connector. I once found that anti-sieze material on starter mounting bolt threads, where a ground was located, was causing my whole charging system to be "off" ...leading to dead batteries. There was a 1/2+ volt rise on this bolt when the starter was engaged. An old Escort. (Be careful with this technique.)

Also, I have read nothing about an "engine temp sensor" in this string ... does the '95 even have one?

[Selectron]

Have you checked the battery voltage on the vehicle? If not then I'd suggest recording the following three voltages. Even if it turns out that the electrical system is all good, it's always worth keeping a record of these voltages so that you know what's normal for your particular vehicle in the event that you suspect electrical problems at a later date.

=============================================

Voltage after sitting parked overnight, but before starting engine - should be around 12.6V (indicates that there is no excessive current drain with the ignition in the Off position, and that the battery is capable of holding at least some level of charge).

Voltage with engine idling - should be towards the high end of thirteen-point-something volts - maybe as high as 14V (indicates that the alternator is producing output current, and that that current is reaching the battery. Also indicates that the rectifier is functioning, converting AC to DC).

Voltage when revving engine slightly - should climb to around 14.4V and then hold steady at that voltage regardless of further increase in engine speed. (Indicates that the voltage regulator is functioning, and clamping the upper voltage threshold at the correct level).

=============================================

There's no reason to suspect parasitic drain in your particular case but that first reading (after sitting overnight but prior to cranking engine) is worth recording because that voltage will start to fall somewhat as the battery ages and its internal resistance increases as a result of sulphation of the plates, so it can be an early indicator.

Just a few words on what your voltage regulator actually does. First thing to understand is that the alternator can't produce any output unless it has an input in the form of current flowing through the field coil. The voltage regulator controls that current through the field coil to maintain a stable output voltage (at the B+ terminal, which feeds current to the battery). The regulator is constantly busy performing this task, so as various electrical loads are switched on (headlamps, blower motor, etc.) it will increase the field coil current to maintain a stable battery voltage, and as those loads are switched off, it will reduce the field coil current, again to maintain that same stable voltage.

The voltage which it aims for is around 14.2 to 14.4V - this differs slightly depending on the particular make and model but it's always there or thereabouts.

Not all alternators will supply full voltage at idling speed, so idling voltage might be as low as 13.5V on some vehicles, or above 14V on others, but with the engine revved somewhat above idle, the voltage should settle at around 14.4V and then remain steady at that voltage regardless of further increase in engine speed.

It's also worth noting that not all voltage regulators are created equal - some will be designed up to a specification, whilst others will be designed down to a price. Therefore not all regulators will display the tight control over output voltage which I was referring to, above. Some manufacturers will supply a specific set of test procedures for determining if the regulator is healthy - something along the lines of - switching different loads on and off - headlights etc., and monitoring voltage to see if it remains within stated specifications.

I just had a look at one online manual for your Windstar and the alternator/regulator testing procedure consisted of simply checking that battery voltage was within the range of 14.1 to 14.7v with the engine at normal operating temperature, so that really isn't much help.

I'd make a note of those three voltages though - they may not shed any light on your present problems but you'll have them available as a reference for the future.

[wiswind]

The 1995 windstar has a engine temperature sensor.....
The 1995 was also fully OBDII complient......makes sense in the design stage as they knew that it would have to be with the 1996 model.

[searcherrr]

Thanks so much everybody. I have been dealing with this crap since October and it is very hard to contain myself. This just has to end very soon. With as much work as I'm putting in its like I should have this thing beating out sports cars or something.

Fuel Pressure Regulator
I read you aren't supposed to smell or see fuel when you take the vac hose off it. I removed the vac hose and believe the engine adjusted as it was supposed to, but I did smell a "hint" and I mean a HINT just once of fuel. I guess I wasn't supposed to smell "ANY AT ALL" (anyone advise?) which could mean of course the FPR needs to be replaced.

Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (ECT)
It is the original. I looked at the connections for it today and cleaned it with electronic parts cleaner. Made sure was dry before replugging it in. I think this is working properly, though I have not tested it specifically. Since I replaced the cooling fan dropping resistor I noticed the fans kicking on where/when they used to and the temp gauge is back where it used to be as well with the old engine between the "A" and the "M".
Alt, Battery & Grounds Resistance
I have had the alt checked myself and at my shop a few times and it tests good as does the battery.

I retested resistance today with the neg cable off. Every ground I know of went right to 0.00ohm. Some started at a higher number, but as I held it and pressed harder it went to 0.00.

The only grounds I know of are at the alternator, one near the radiator cap on the frame, one opposite that one on the frame by battery, of course the negative cable with 3 grounds out of it. All of these test good.

Voltage
I wanted to retest voltage for spiking when fully warmed, but I still do not have the exhaust pipe setup finished and that heat coming out directly under the middle of the van disintegrates the heat shield paper under there. I need to get the exhaust finished which has turned out to be a major hassle holding me up on trivial tests that require the engine to be fully warmed. I'm taking the ypipe I bought tomorrow to get the rear upstream o2 port moved slightly and then this exhaust saga should be over with except for needing to cut the muffler hanger in the rear due to it interfering with the tow package. After those 2 things are done the system will finally be "BOLT-ON".

12Ounce - Odd that someone would've put antiseize at the starter bolt. I replaced my starter when I first got the van and I didn't put any on nor is there any at the alternator. Good call though.

Selectron - I'll put your voltage tests on my hit list for after I get the exhaust stuff done tomorrow. I appreciate these techniques as I didn't know how to test for alt regulator or rectifier proper operation. I guess those tests equate to what the stupid machine at Autozone (which never works right) does when it does work right.

wiswind - I've been putting off the CCRM for a while now cause of $. Though if my testing in the next few days does nothing for my situation I'm probably gonna order it. Thanks for your info as always on the items I've replaced being fairly normal or not for needing replacement.

[tripletdaddy]

Searcherr, I don't think I can add much more than what others have brought up. No battery/alt light come one any? If it's the original alt, you could have a "used up" voltage regulator, which includes the brushes. It is replaceable as a unit or just the brushes, as the alt is quite expensive. But at this point a bench test of it would be worthwhile just to eliminate it. Unfortunately, I have had the alt light flicker on two of my vehicles in identical ways, with the Windstar issue clearing up on its own after having a battery go dead, so I'm guessing maybe the brushes were complaining and then straightened out. The rest of the voltage reg. is electronic, so I wouldn't expect that to fix itself. There wasn't time or an incidence of strange electrical behavior, but what you've described definitely needs investigation. My other vehicle my guess could have been fixed with a new voltage regulator, but I didn't not knowing better to try. Ouch, could have saved over $100.

Selectron would probably know better than I, but I believe that there should not be any significant voltage spikes caused by turning things off as that is part of the purpose of the voltage regulator. I'd guess anything more than a 1/2 volt spike would not be good or normal.

I can't quote or locate it, but I have read on the forum (if not windstar, then taurus) about peculiar performance behavior caused by the ECT as the PCM uses the engine temp to help determine air fuel/trim and transmission operation (or the trans has its own temp sensor that can do weird stuff, don't remember). FYI, the ECT has been in use prior to the 95 windstar in EEC-IV type systems (and possibly others) like the Taurus as they too have a pcm that utilizes that info. I'd also recommend searching discussions on the fuel regulator, again with Windstar and Taurus, as they are very similarly configured.

After I saved this, I read your latest post, so I will add that the bench test verses the underhood test the auto stores do are not equal, with the bench test being much better. I believe they load test it, measure it's output, and check the voltage on the field, and whatever other outputs there are, which they can't do in the car. For example, they weren't able to tell anything was wrong with my alt in the car, but out of it, they could tell the switching diodes were breaking down, the rectifier was starting to go bad. The regulator was still working properly ttbomk. I think one of the diodes may have actually been shorting, causing a drain on the battery.

[wiswind]

If you DO smell gasoline at the fuel pressure regulator....then it needs to be replaced.
However.....it can be tough to tell if you really smelled fuel at that point or not.
It WOULD explain a lot if it is leaking....but this would be the first time that I have seen it mentioned (not that it cannot or does not happen).

[12Ounce]

Instead of "anti-sieze", perhaps better wording would be "thread-loc". It was the original manufacturer's installation. You know, the bolts that come with the blue stuff on the threads.