98 Windstar Braking Problem

[Rotorman]

Originally Posted by Ulsterman

Thanks for all the replies folks.
I can rule out the stuck caliper pins right away Searcherr, I've had them out they're as new and greased up and sliding freely. I can watch each caliper move the pads and grab the rotor when an assistant presses the brake pedal.
I appreciate your views Rotorman and 12Ounce and others about patience and bleeding and running a lot of fluid through and I intend to continue this process once MD dries up a little after two days rain. I returned the old calipers to Autozone yesterday and picked up speed bleeders for the front calipers (they claimed they didn't have ones for the rear cylinders) but I'll check against the old units this evening. Patience is not something I'm noted for so I'll have to force myself to take time over this.
Hyguy just watch this post and I'll update once I get a dry evening here. I'd welcome hearing of any progress you make.

Overall I actually like this van. It looks good, has a good safety record and drives a treat and we've had good service from it. I did the lower intake manifold gaskets 3 years ago and last week replaced the fuel pump. We look forward to another few years with a bit of luck!

One quick note there's a lot of bad rebuilt m/c's out there and Cardone seems to be one of them I hope you got a new one not a rebuilt unit. When you bleed you don't have use brand name brake fluid I used a no name one.

[Ulsterman]

Rotorman the master cylinder I fitted was Raybestos professional grade bought online at Rockauto, don't think it was a reman unit and don't remember paying a core charge or I'd have returned the old one, it's still on my workbench.
This evening I fitted the speed bleeders to the front calipers and bled about a pint or more fluid through each one. This seemed to give a better pedal feel so I put on the front wheels and took it for a short drive.
Verdict...improvement but a way to go yet. The pedal still travels down maybe 3/4 way to the floor but from there I'm getting a firmer feel than previously but am having to pump to stop the vehicle anyway quick.
Tomorrow I think I'll visit the auto shop and look for speed bleeders to fit the rear wheel cylinders as I found them very handy to get a fair volume of fluid through reasonable quickly in a solo exercise.
Thanks for the speed bleeder tip Rotorman, I think I'm on the right track ok. Next I'll get all four wheels off the ground and do a serious bleeding exercise on each wheel to see if I can't get a good firm pedal.

[LeSabre97mint]

Ulstrman

Have you adjusted the rear shoes so they are close to the drum? If you pull the parking brake (not all of the way but just before it applies) and then try braking. If the pedal doesn't go down as far, without the Ebrake slightly applied the rear shoes should be tightened up.

How far do you have to pull the Ebrake before it takes effect?

Regards

Dan

[Ulsterman]

The rear brakes are well adjusted. The handbrake travel is approx 2/3 of what it used to be.
Didn't get near the van this evening, that whacky hobby called work!

[Hyguy]

Ulsterman,

I decided to break down and take the van to the Ford dealer.

They found that it was the hydraulic part of the ABS module.

The dealer part is $1000 . They can get me a used one for $350 but still estimate $1000 for the re and re plus additional parts. Bottom line $1000 to $1500. I guess I could do it myself but it look like a nasty little job. I think I'm done with this one.

Hope you fare better than me!

Best of luck.

Hyguy.

[searcherrr]

Ouch.

I guess thats possible .... its not so much ABS, but indirectly so since the HCU exists for the ABS thus if the mechanisms of it fail or get clogged over time this makes sense. This would explain why Ulsterman can't get it nabbed, but "perhaps" if his problem is slowly improving (pedal feel) over the course of several flushes the prob may go away.

Its too bad there's no machine to use to flush the brake lines repeatedly. Could purposely send air through the line during the flush and/or some kind of line detergent though I don't think that exists for brakes unless you'd send Brake Parts cleaner through the system mixed with brake fluid though I'm sure everyone will say thats a big NO NO cause of all the warnings we see to never put anything else in fluid lines except brake fluid - still it might get the job done to flush the HCU and then after you'd flush with more and more and more fluid till you are satisfied the brake parts cleaner is out.

Perhaps you could open two calipers.... pump force into one and catch out the other.. maybe reverse the flow too. This way you could hook up a small hose that fits to each end making it easy to pump out unless somehow you could pump out from the MC to 1 caliper open at a time. This is of course assuming Ulsterman's prob is in the HCU..... which at this point could be very likely since most everything else is narrowed out unless its the MC or Prop valve.

Ulsterman - I rebuilt my MC with a kit on my car. If you are thinking about redoing it you may wanna see if Ford has a rebuild kit and do it that way.

EDIT: Maybe you could unhook the HCU on the vehicle and use your hand air pump (or compressed air from a compressor maybe 20 to 35lbs) and blow in the inlets and see if GUNK forces out of the outlets then reverse it... blow IN through the outlets OUT through the inlets. It makes sense to me the HCU would be a blockage point cause its a junction.

[searcherrr]

Eliminating possibilities you've already ruled out and again this is from my 1995 Cd-ROM.

From the cd-rom:

Symptom: Brakes not working, excessive pedal travel, brake pedal (2455) feels spongy when fully applied.

• Worn or damaged ABS HCU
• Rear brake shoe and lining out of adjustment
• Front wheel bearing end play not to specification
• Brake master cylinder or power booster mounting loose
• Front disc brake caliper attachment loose
• Worn or damaged automatic adjusting mechanism (rear)
• Glazed, worn, scored or damaged brake shoe and linings
• Drums or rotors out of round (excessive runout)
• Front or rear brake hoses improperly positioned
• Brake master cylinder filter cap vent hole clogged

Symptom: Excessive brake pedal travel or brake pedal goes to floor consistently.

• Master cylinder diagnosis
• Rear brake shoe and lining out of adjustment, worn, bad wear pattern, or cracked drums
• Loose or improper attachment of brake pedal, pedal support booster and brake master cylinder
• Insufficient brake pedal reserve (tests for Brake booster, check valve, master cylinder,

Symptom: Excessive pedal effort to fully apply brakes

• Overloaded vehicle
• Insufficient vacuum to power brake booster
• Power brake booster and brake pedal linkage binding caused by worn bushings or corrosion.
• Worn or damaged power brake booster.
• Brake shoe and lining worn, glazed, contaminated or improper type.
• Rear brake shoe and lining (2200) improperly installed.
• Seized pistons in rear wheel cylinders (2261) or disc brake calipers (2B120).
• Restricted brake lines or hoses.

Hydraulic Control Unit (HCU)

Removal

1. Disconnect 24-pin connector from anti-lock brake control module (2B373).

2. Disconnect 2-pin power and ground connector from anti-lock brake control module.

3. Remove two tubes from inlet ports and four tubes from outlet ports of HCU.

4. Remove three attaching bolts retaining EHCU assembly to the mounting bracket and lower EHCU assembly down and out of engine compartment.

5. Separate the anti-lock brake control module from the hydraulic control unit (HCU) by removing the 4-T25H Torx® head screws and the pump motor harness connector. Do not pry apart, carefully detach the anti-lock brake control module from the HCU by pulling straight apart.

EDIT: Hyguy - If thats all it is to remove that thing looks like it wouldn't be too bad. I never did it myself, but I did get an HCU for really cheap through http://www.car-part.com

[Ulsterman]

Thanks for the replies guys and for all the useful info Searcherr.
When I get back to working at the van it'll be get it up on axlestands, all four wheels off and bleed, bleed, bleed. I now have speedbleeders for all four wheels so it won't actually take all that long. If I don't get a better pedal then I'll look further to this ABS unit but here's hoping.
Maurice

[12Ounce]

... don't forget to start at master cylinder.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

... don't forget to start at master cylinder.

Just a thought I think possibly master cylinder bleeding might be said to be required because of there still being fluid in the lines during removal of the MC. If you were to bleed the system dry of all fluid and then begin again pouring into the MC it doesn't seem that you'd need to bleed the MC specifically, but just the calipers thereafter. I've done this on my car and it worked out fine. Though if you separate the MC before bleeding the system dry it would seem you would need to either bleed the MC or the entire system.

Also just a tip to save fluid. I use an extremely clean container (air blow it out first too) and will reuse fluid thats already been flushed and still clean if I'm constantly flushing then end it with a clean refill from the fluid bottle.

[searcherrr]

Good that you verified the fronts are not locking up on the sliders, but what about the rears on their sliders too?

[Ulsterman]

Searcherrr, the rear brakes on a 98 Windstar are drums - no slider pins but they're well greased where the shoes contact the backing plates.

12Ounce I'm starting at the M/C and working out. I take it I unhook the brake lines one at a time and push some fluid through?

[12Ounce]

Yep, sometimes a bubble can lodge there just outside the master cylinder body ... it eventually will move on its own, but bleeding at the tube nuts helps advance the process. Don't take the lines loose ... just loosen the nuts a vee bit just as you would a bleed screw ... and only while the fluid is pressurized. You must have an assistant for this one.

It also gives you a second chance to make sure the tube nuts are sealing well.

[Ulsterman]

Well I bled at the master cylinder just as 12Ounce described but without any improvement. Busy with family stuff but I'll belled at the four wheels later today or tomorrow.

[Ulsterman]

Yesterday I bled about a quart of fluid at each wheel with an assistant pumping the pedal. I got a few air bubbles from the rear drivers side at one stage but overall only a minor improvement if any.
Took the van for a test drive. It's much the same as I described earlier in this post. The pedal will travel to 3/4 or further down to get it to a standstill; pumping will get it stopped faster.
I think I'll drive it to work for a few days then try readjusting the rear brakes and repeating the four wheel bleeding.
Overall very frustrating since it's driving very well after the engine problems I've had.
Ideas?