01 Taurus SES driveline problem

[ted g]

Thanks Bob-

It is a 17 bolt "S" from what I can see. I am going to double check what I saw in the A.M. and then return or exchange the halfshaft to AZ.

And---thanks again.


Ted

[ted g]

Hi all-

I just got the steering knuckle back from the shop. Price was fine, about $80 with the ball joint. The joint is worth around 55-60. Can't complain.

Also, I the local AZ store has some knowledgeable folks. I presented one of them with all the info. They don't list the halfshaft properly on the web or their internal system. The parts type that looked at it this time was able to cross reference over using a paper catalog from a manufacturer.

Forgot the trans seal so I have to get that. Then I'll go for the re-assembly. Hopefully, all will go ok. I'll post the end result. It may take a day or two as I am slightly, I hope, under the weather.

Thanks again.

Ted g

[ted g]

OK-So I finally got all the parts. I have to do one more thing before the reassembly work. The differential seal, the one the spines from the inner cv goes through, should be replaced. Actually, now has to be replaced given my ill fated attempt at removal. Once again I trusted my stupid Haynes Manual. Bad move? It says to pry out the seal or use a seal puller.

I tried an easy does it type pry. No result.
I then got the bright idea of taking my small slide hammer puller and gave a light tug with that-no result except for a wrecked seal
Took a better look at all this. Is there an outer cover that has to be spun out or am I wrong. It sorta looks like it has an outer part that may need to be turned out with a spanner (I think that's the correct term_. I am thinking of a wrench with two points that go into holes in a part to turn it._

Also, I think it's time for me to get an online data source for service info for the Ford and also my 07 Volvo 850. All Data ok or is something else better. All data indicates they have TSB s and recalls also.

[ted g]

Make that a 97 Volvo 850.

[tripletdaddy]

I would think your Haynes would explain how to remove the driveaxle seal on the trans/differential in the automatic transaxle section as that is where it is for one of my vehicles. It indicates that the seal is a two-part design, with an outer metal ring and an inner rubber seal. It says to use a hammer and hook tool to pry up the outer lip of the seal to dislodge it so it can be pried out. So, if the two vehicles use the same design seal, then that would be what you have and somewhat consistent with what you found. A spanner wrench is the right name for what you thought you needed, but won't work here.

[ted g]

Thanks much

The parts guy gave me a single piece that pretty much looks like an inner seal from an old brake drum. I was thinking, wrong of course, that it somehow replaced the entire seal assembly. I think if I get the right parts it should start to make sense.

[inafogg]

hello ted, i would think a slap hammer should work. just make sure you get behind metal part of seal.you could also use screw driver.get between seal & trans lip & tap to start moving seal. then get behind seal to knock out (or use slap hammer from inside)

[ted g]

Thanks again=

Wow, I just tried the slide hammer again-no movement. I got frustrated enough to get an All-Data Password. Cost me a few bucks but from their info it does appear that the outer ring gets forced out. They say, use the special tool. Uhhhhh, what special tool? They have a picture and it looks quite substantial and expensive. In any case I have confirmed that it need to be forced out. It also appears that the new seal, the one piece, is correct.

Now what? Not sure I'll get our there and play some more. When my wife gets here with the other car I'll go in search of a seal puller if I have to.

[tripletdaddy]

Maybe a seal puller will work maybe it won't as I thought they were more for pulling regular rubber and metal seals. Quite frankly, this particular seal I have found to be very difficult to pry out even with a two foot pry bar. I get the impression from the book and what you are experiencing, that the puller wouldn't be stout enough to do it. I'm now starting to think that maybe this "two-peice" seal is or close to a regular seal. I know you need to be careful not to damage the edge of the bore. Using your slide hammer would be very much like what the book pix describes as going around the seal from behind with a hook tool that they hammer on. The tool is kind of a T that has a hook at its bottom to catch the seal from behind. The T top is to hold on one side and the other to hammer out towards oneself. Another method I have used an awl or other sharp tool to pierce the metal ring that the rubber seal is attached and then I could start to bend that edge out and grab it with channel locks and eventually leverage it out.

[ted g]

Thanks Tripletdaddy-

This is turning into utter madness. If I had any idea I would have this much trouble with the seal I would have taken a chance on the old one. I just thought it best to replace while I was in there. The manual made it look too darn easy.

The original seal has an outer ring that is quite substantial. It's hard to put it into words but its not flat against the trans its got a rounded shape with holes evenly spaced around it. Then inside there was the actual seal. It is supposed to be two pieces but at this point I am not sure. It looks more like a really tough one piece.

The new seal looks pretty much like a bearing seal from a drum brake. Nothing special except the rediculous price.

At this point the innards of the seal have been pulled out. That is the rubber and its reenforcement. The darn thing laughed at my slide hammer. I hit it hard enough I was thinking that the outer ring was screwed in. The seal puller isn't going to do it. It just tears the metal.

Being afraid of damaging the trans housing I went online and looked for the tool that Alldata shows. Good luck. I found all kinds of aftermarket stuff for GM. No Ford. Really wierd. It's as if the Taurus was some kind of low production exotic. Frustrating. Especially since the GM tool is under $20. I would pay a lot more to get out of this mess quickly.

I was thinking of trying to bend the metal but that may take a bit of force. Ford sells cars with exploding springs but then makes a stupid little seal strong enough to take this abuse. Again, wierd.

Thanks again,

Ted

[tripletdaddy]

It kind of sounds like an inside snap ring, retaining ring. If it is not a complete circle, I wonder if it could be pulled out with good snap ring pliers or a spanner wrench like you mentioned. I've seen some arrangements that there is like a little pocket that allows you to get behind the retaining ring with something pointed so you can pry it out. For as solid as this thing sounds, I would have to assume that it is in some sort of groove. Good luck.

[ted g]

Thanks for all the reply(ies) Tripletdaddy.

The seal is like a brake drum seal gone completely out of its mind. Like its been reinforced with some sort of alien technology. The problem I also see is that the rubber extends over part of the metal that goes into the bore. I suspect that has acted as a shock absorber when I try to use a slide hammer puller on it. I may try that again anyway with a bearing puller if I can get one to fit. They pull in multiple spots. It may help.

I really think, though, it needs a puller that will apply a steady pressure on it to remove it. The problem with using a generic tool for this is that there is very little in the area on the outside of the bore to have a tool push against. But I am thinking---sometimes this is dangerous as displayed by the mess I am trying to get out of now.

I can't seem to post pictures of the seal here so I put them on http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll199/SomersetTed/

If you go to the slideshow function you can see them more clearly.

Thanks again for the help.

Ted

[rdh2]

Ted-

I've looked at the factory Service Manual, pictures of the seal you posted, and a picture of the tool (P/N 303-107 or T74P-6700-A).

I think what happens is the tool's tapered portion expands when the forcing screw is turned. When it expands tight in the seal, the forcing screw then acts as a puller against the shaft to remove the seal. See the pics below of the tool operation.

Doing a Google Search for the tool part numbers, I found one for $150. It's kind of pricey for a one use tool, but may be cheaper than you hauling the car to a dealer. Check hxxp://www.etoolcart.com


P/N 303-107 or T74P-6700-A Remover, Crankshaft Front Oil Seal



Using the special tools remove the right differential seal.



Using the special tool remove the right differential seal metal protector.
Rotate the special tool.
Rotate the forcing screw while holding the special tool.
Remove the metal protector of the seal



Using the special tool, remove the rubber portion of the seal.
Rotate the special tool.
Rotate the forcing screw while holding the special tool.
Remove the rubber portion of the seal.



Using the special tools, install the RH seal.


I would think you may be able to use any seal installation tools to install these seals.

[ted g]

Thanks muchly re. the specialized tools

I subscribed to AllData just after I got myself into this mess and found the tools. If I had done that first this never would have happened. The original seal was probably just fine. In any case you are right about it still being cheaper than hauling it outa here and having the work done.

Tomorrow morning I'll have the time to make the list of numbers for the tools. It looks to me, I hope I am wrong but I don't think so, that there is a tool to get the outer ring off. That is the rather swollen outer part. Then there is a separate tool to remove the part of it that actually sits in the bore. I think there is a small or addition to the tool that adds to cost of the tools also.

I spoke with the local Mac Guy about the tools and he can get them. Rough idea so far on prices from a Ford\Rotunda Catalog is over $300 without the install tools. They specify also a tool that I think is meant to center the seal in the bore somehow. Why that? Dunno.

What I would like to do? Well, do everything I can to protect the trans and the input bearing. Then take a fine hacksaw blade and carefully slice the seal and its metal ring being careful not to affect the bore in the trans. When it gets close, slide hammer it. Out it comes. Will I try this? No, but I do like the idea. I really don't want to pull the trans as a result of trying this stunt.

So, I will probably order the tools, after checking EBay. There is a remote chance I can find something there.

In closing, one thing worries me greatly. I have already done some damage to the seal. I hope the tools can still easily remove it. If I have to resort to the hacksaw after buying the tools---yuk!

Thanks again,


Ted

[tripletdaddy]

Ted,

I don't know how big a hurry you are in, but a new post on this unique seal and its removal might get you the experienced response that this post does not attract.

In the meantime, your pix really do shed some light on your stubborn seal situation. My thoughts before you dump an unreasonable amount of money to a single use tool are: find something thin and sharp that you can hammer and pry under the flat rim that I assume lays flat on the outside of the trans and axleshaft bore. A heavy scraper, putty knife can be used to start tapping behind its lip. I'd also try to take advantage of those holes, possibly even enlarging them without drilling all the way through the seal to avoid chips inside(also why I don't like sawing it)stuff a rag in if necessary. Then use something strong like a drift or punch and pry to 3 and 9 o'clock position to rock it out sideways and to 12 (towards the seal). Hopefully those directions will get the side you're on to creep out. DON'T pull to 6 o'clock, that may just work it back in unless you are prying against a fulcrum. Hopefully you can then get under the metal lip of the seal and pry it out. When prying, I find putting something flat, sometimes wood, under the pry bar gives extra leverage and protects the trans. I know a similiar seal I recently removed took an unbelievable amount of force at the end of a 18 in pry bar. I tried using my slide hammer on it with its hook and it did nothing, but I also thought I really couldn't get much force on it either. I didn't have the patience to try positioning it on the metal so it wouldn't bounce on the rubber. I have a round drift pry bar set that would be exactly what you need. I would expect a good parts or hardware /tool store to have it. I bet you will get more than one use from it and have some pizza money left for the victory celebration!