If theres a heaven....

[prit0009]

no problem that's what i'm here for...

[ichthus]

Gosh, must I really respond to this? I'm quite glad that this forum is rather slow in post-buildup right now and that I can safely wait till morning or after classes to respond to some things...hmmm Might as well get it over with. First, I will address this from a Christian standpoint, as that is what I know best...and I fail to see the point of being politically correct (especially when i disaggree with it's very essence).

I see heaven as a creation of early primitive minds, when virtually everyone believed in God and religion. People could not explain natural phenomena, and out of fear of the unknown, they created the idea of God, a supreme being who created earth and the heavens. Many to this day take comfort in the idea of a place called heaven, where if you "behave" yourself in life, you will have an afterlife without pain and suffering. .....
Conversely, I am very much against some of the teachings surrounding the notion of heaven. Think about the Middle Ages in Europe. For perhaps 600 years or more, the teachings of the church instructed people that life was merely an act of preparation for the afterlife. How unfortunate for them if there is no heaven, and they withheld themselves from partaking in countless naughty deeds for fear of the unknown, only in the end to get shafted by blowing their only chance at life.

It is a common misconception that the Bible is here to explain the world we live in. The Bible does NOT defy science. Science has not provided a single thread of evidence to disprove the Bible. By their very definitions you cannot use one to explain or disprove the other. They exist independant of oneanother. The Bible deals solely with the Supernatural, or that which is unexplainable by scientific means. It doesn't defy scientific law. It doesn't break scientific law. It has NOTHING to do with scientific law, they are separate concepts. Can I stress this enough?

Science is comprised of, primarily, observation. Nothing can be proven without direct observation of the act or occurance. In fact, according to chaos theory, regardless of how many times we observe something you cannot completely assume that it occured in the same way prior to direct observation.

Another common misconception is that goodworks alone will get you into heaven...or that Christianity believes this. In all honesty, I don't care how good or bad you are during your lifetime...and neither does God. I've heard that Jeffry Dahmer (sp?), the serial killer that ate his victims, used skin for lampshades, and kept body pieces in his fridge accepted the forgiveness of Jesus Christ just months before he was killed in prison. If true, even he is in heaven right now.

You see, mankind is NOT perfect, and therefore unworthy of heaven. According to the Bible, all we must do is accept Jesus Christ's forgiveness and believe he died and rose again in order to be assured our salvation. Odd and twisted? Yes. Simple and free? Absolutely. Impossible to accept? Only for those who are close-minded.

Bah, you wrote too much....

Do explain how following the Bible has in any way decreased the quality of my life? The Bible is not some huge rule book meant to limit what we do, but rather an instructional tool explaining how to live life to it's fullest and most rewarding. Everything God commands is meant to keep some harm from us or bring some good to us. When God created the world he said "It is good", and he meant it. Everything on earth is good. Sex, drugs, alcohol...it is all good. BUT ONLY WHEN USED/DONE IN THE APPROPRIATE MANNER, AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME, AND WITH THE APPROPRIATE PEOPLE!!! Only when done in excess and for the wrong reasons are drugs and alcohol bad. So, who, you ask is to define what is right and wrong? Well, in part those are answered in the Bible and can be summed up in the commandment "Treat your body like a Temple of God". Basically saying, be healthy in what you eat and ingest.

As for the whole "age of the earth" issue. That goes back to science being a study of observation. I remember one study based on the Mississippi River Delta in which they examined the sedimentary deposits to determine the age of the earth. Scientists immediately claimed that after examining the deposits it was found the earth was some billion or hundreds of millions of years old. Only a few days later it came out that only a couple sediments revealed any such thing and that the actual results showed a mean age of less than 10,000 years. Everyone ignoring the fact that the Mississippi would most likely NOT have been around for the entire earth's existence in anything close to its present form.

I have serious issues with the Catholic Church as a whole. For some very simple reasons, really...but in large part due to the fact that they do NOT take a literal interpretation of the Bible. They make far too many assumptions and label all those who go against them as heretics. It is run more as a beaurocracy than a church. The church leaders, at the time of Columbus decided the earth was flat,despite the fact that the Bible itself refers to the earth as being a sphere!!! What is more laughable is that anyone assumed the Catholic Church needed to acknowledge that the earth was anything but round...I can see it now: The Pope on his 5th flight around the world suddenly exclaims "Hey, we're going around in circles!!! And what's up with this big metal bird we're flying in!?!?!"

Oh, and it's impossible to disprove God's existence. He exists outside of time and our physical constraints and therefore cannot be disproven using them. As stated near the top of this...novel...

Let the debate begin...this could be quite fun and force me to procrastinate my studies yet again....

[JD@af]

This will be fun. However, I will have to defer from further postings at least until tomorrow. It has been a long day and I can scarcely keep my eyes open. Looks like you won't get any more chances to procrastinate from me for now

[prit0009]

Have a good nite... sleep well

[ichthus]

Procrastination is a constant for me...at no time does it end

[Lizard King]

Argghh! I wish I didn't start this! *punches own face*

*regrets punching own face*

I should have known it would turn into a creation vs evolution topic. After the epic carform debates of old, I haven't the energy.

But I must ad a few things.

Science can't disprove the bible. But when the bible is just a book based on long past events and post death expectancies, how could anything ever disprove it? Nothing short of time travel could do it.

Religion gives people hope. But you don't need religion to have hope. Religion has been the cause of countless wars and attrocities. Religion might not be the direct fault, but effect it has on humans is.

Religion is just another thing that can seporate humans, just like race. Just another cause of trouble.

The scientific ways that we can show how old the earth is, or show how ludircous the ark story is (and most other bible stories), are far more solid than anything the bible can come up with.


I can't believe if contributed to this....

[Oceanblues66]

Originally posted by bellaracing
Oh yeah and about that shameful thing..........I have never done anything bad I am a good girl hehehe

I think I have to agree with you on that one Bella ---I'm good girl too heheh, maybe I should try being bad once Huh?

[Oceanblues66]

Originally posted by ichthus
Gosh, must I really respond to this? I'm quite glad that this forum is rather slow in post-buildup right now and that I can safely wait till morning or after classes to respond to some things...hmmm Might as well get it over with. First, I will address this from a Christian standpoint, as that is what I know best...and I fail to see the point of being politically correct (especially when i disaggree with it's very essence).

It is a common misconception that the Bible is here to explain the world we live in. The Bible does NOT defy science. Science has not provided a single thread of evidence to disprove the Bible. By their very definitions you cannot use one to explain or disprove the other. They exist independant of oneanother. The Bible deals solely with the Supernatural, or that which is unexplainable by scientific means. It doesn't defy scientific law. It doesn't break scientific law. It has NOTHING to do with scientific law, they are separate concepts. Can I stress this enough?

Science is comprised of, primarily, observation. Nothing can be proven without direct observation of the act or occurance. In fact, according to chaos theory, regardless of how many times we observe something you cannot completely assume that it occured in the same way prior to direct observation.

Another common misconception is that goodworks alone will get you into heaven...or that Christianity believes this. In all honesty, I don't care how good or bad you are during your lifetime...and neither does God. I've heard that Jeffry Dahmer (sp?), the serial killer that ate his victims, used skin for lampshades, and kept body pieces in his fridge accepted the forgiveness of Jesus Christ just months before he was killed in prison. If true, even he is in heaven right now.

You see, mankind is NOT perfect, and therefore unworthy of heaven. According to the Bible, all we must do is accept Jesus Christ's forgiveness and believe he died and rose again in order to be assured our salvation. Odd and twisted? Yes. Simple and free? Absolutely. Impossible to accept? Only for those who are close-minded.

Bah, you wrote too much....

Do explain how following the Bible has in any way decreased the quality of my life? The Bible is not some huge rule book meant to limit what we do, but rather an instructional tool explaining how to live life to it's fullest and most rewarding. Everything God commands is meant to keep some harm from us or bring some good to us. When God created the world he said "It is good", and he meant it. Everything on earth is good. Sex, drugs, alcohol...it is all good. BUT ONLY WHEN USED/DONE IN THE APPROPRIATE MANNER, AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME, AND WITH THE APPROPRIATE PEOPLE!!! Only when done in excess and for the wrong reasons are drugs and alcohol bad. So, who, you ask is to define what is right and wrong? Well, in part those are answered in the Bible and can be summed up in the commandment "Treat your body like a Temple of God". Basically saying, be healthy in what you eat and ingest.

As for the whole "age of the earth" issue. That goes back to science being a study of observation. I remember one study based on the Mississippi River Delta in which they examined the sedimentary deposits to determine the age of the earth. Scientists immediately claimed that after examining the deposits it was found the earth was some billion or hundreds of millions of years old. Only a few days later it came out that only a couple sediments revealed any such thing and that the actual results showed a mean age of less than 10,000 years. Everyone ignoring the fact that the Mississippi would most likely NOT have been around for the entire earth's existence in anything close to its present form.

I have serious issues with the Catholic Church as a whole. For some very simple reasons, really...but in large part due to the fact that they do NOT take a literal interpretation of the Bible. They make far too many assumptions and label all those who go against them as heretics. It is run more as a beaurocracy than a church. The church leaders, at the time of Columbus decided the earth was flat,despite the fact that the Bible itself refers to the earth as being a sphere!!! What is more laughable is that anyone assumed the Catholic Church needed to acknowledge that the earth was anything but round...I can see it now: The Pope on his 5th flight around the world suddenly exclaims "Hey, we're going around in circles!!! And what's up with this big metal bird we're flying in!?!?!"

Oh, and it's impossible to disprove God's existence. He exists outside of time and our physical constraints and therefore cannot be disproven using them. As stated near the top of this...novel...

Let the debate begin...this could be quite fun and force me to procrastinate my studies yet again....

After Reading your quote, I felt like going to my ANTHROPOLOGY BOOK and Study it for a few hours LOL, Since that happens to be one of my classes and I keep putting it off more and more Uggggggggggggg, so sorry your PRIMITIVE talk made me think anthro. ehehe.

[JD@af]

First off, I loved the fact that you approved (as in reference to the viewpoint of the church I assume?) of drugs and alcohol. YES!! That's good news that I was not aware of (I know for me personally that in moderation they are experimental and good, clean fun, however taboo to many in society).

Lizard King, I am glad you started this, so no worries. At least some of us (can't/won't speak for everyone) are getting some good, stimulating discussion out of this.

Ichthus, your viewpoints on the separation of the church and science is enlightening.

I wholly agree that the Bible is in fact a collection of teachings on leading an enriched and fulfilling life. The Psalms are the best example I can think of that present a well-rounded cross section of "life's little lessons."

While I agree that the teachings of the Bible and its words of wisdom are set forth with the best of intentions, I have to mention Lizard King's point here, that different religious beliefs have far and away been the cause of the most conflict and strife of anything in the world. The Bible may not have decreased the quality of your life in any way, shape, or form, but think of how many people lost their husbands, wives, siblings, parents, and children in the Crusades. Think about present day conflicts between the Jews and the Arabs, between the Serbs and the Croatians. Different religions have caused hatred, war, poverty, and mass destruction between people for thousands of years. I can't endorse too strongly the development of organized religion and the teachings of the Bible, the Torah, or any other religious scripture for these reasons.

I naturally agree with you as well about the Catholic church. Sad that it's close-minded representation of the Christian faith has scared away so many, like my brother and my father, both of whom will be atheists till the day they die. I feel that their lack of faith represents an across-the-board negative outlook of the world and in how they conduct their lives.

I am a fan of the ideals of humanity's imperfections, and forgiveness as the key to gaining entrance into heaven. I may not accept it hook, line and sinker word for word, but the idea is very appealing, and I can appreciate the importance of positive ideals like this in stark contrast to the destitute of agnostic thought.

I will have to ask you to restate your opinion on scientific dating of Mississippi River Delta deposits more clearly and what your point there is. I am unsure of the conclusion of your argument. I agree that perhaps not a single piece of scientific fact can be proven by deductive reasoning, only the inductive, and that this loophole prevents anything from being proven true. But are you relying on chaos theory as an escape hatch for all forms of radioactive decay dating, for example? Because the rate-of-decay consistency of carbon 14 half lives are about as accurate in pinpointing age of rock as the cesium atomic clock in Boulder, CO. Be warned that I am a geologist by education and I have an ass-whooping of geologic data to back up the claims of the earth's age being in the neighborhood of 4.65 billion years, including my senior thesis.

Anyway, that's a good return for now. We'll chat more later

[prit0009]

As for JD and Lizard King's comments on religion being the reason for many a conflict, war and atrocities I have to comment.
I will say that I agree with the fact that religion has given mankind a reason to look down on others, hate and kill neighbours and loved ones. but please remember that is exactly it - religion. just take the case of northern ireland for example - they say it's catholic vs. protestant but do they really know what they are fighting over anymore?
anyways back to the religion thing. i want to get this straight, what i practice and what many Christians practice is not religion it's FAITH! Jesus Christ never preached hatred, prejudice or racism or religious overpowering. in fact he rebuked the so-called "religious" pharisees (hypocrites) of his day.
Jesus taught us to love and respect and care for everyone, including our enemies. Unfortuneatly human nature and sin gets in the way of all of us and we have distorted this all in the name of a word called "religion".

[JD@af]

While I can't disagree with your post, I can't endorse your message either, sadly, much as I would like to. What's the old saying: "the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions." Herein lies my discrepancies with organized religion. It is not what was preached that was bad, but the end result of those preachings.

For a similar example, Marx's doctrine of communism is an idealistic and beautiful system on paper, but of course has been the downfall of a society on practice, a far cry from Marx's original paradigm. Again, it is not what was preached that was bad, but the end result of those preachings.

[bellaracing]

ichthus

you said I am just asking for trouble, well then I am waiting for it. No guy can corrupt me I will corrupt him before he ever gets close to doing it to me.

[Lizard King]

You haven't met me yet. lol

[bellaracing]

LizardKing
if that message was towards me then I would like you to try it *lol*

[Adam]

isn't this an interesting topic.


I believe in Jesus, God, heaven, etc.

I don't have too much time to read everyone's topic, so this may have been said. This seems probably annoying to you, but i am wondering. If you don't believe in heaven, then what do you believe?

Secondly, evolution makes no sense. It is mans excuse for creation, saying that the bigger the explosion and the more time it has, the more orderly it becomes. I'm sure you're all familiar w/ the 2 law of thermodynamics: the amount of useful energy tends to decrease. Entropy. Evolutionists believe in spontaneous generation also, that living things can arise from non-liviing thins-- not possible.

You may say: "Where did God come from then?"
I say: "He's always been."
You: "Impossible"
Me: "something can't come from nothing. Where has the goo come from?"
You: "errr... I have to ask some evolutionist to see what he says"


Evolutionist: "it'll take a lot of argueing, but basically what ever is not in the Bible"

This is somewhat exaggerated, but you catch my drift...

-----
Stop me if i'm off topic, which i probably am. feel free to ignore me. I am awful at arguements and usually just stay out.


there's my 1 cent