Am I Imagining Things

[dtownfb]

Using your buddies poor running 13 year old Blazer to support your argument is not convincing. Not unless his car is in the same shape as when he drove it off the lot, I think it is safe to say there are too many variables.

I've read the articles (note multiple articles) on Top Tier gas which is why I dispute the claims. I find it interesting that brands like ExxonMobil, Citgo and Sunoco are not on this list. A major car manufacturer like Ford has not hopped on the band wagon. Top Tier gas is nothing but a marketing tool. I'm not disputing their claims that their additives do not work but are they necessary for my car to run at peak performance. Like I mentioned, if I owned a BMW or Mercedes, I would fill my car with top tier fuel. You buy these cars for a reason. We are talking about an Oldsmobile.

To make my question clearer is the gas that meets the minimum EPA standards not enough for my car? Or are there other factors? Again, what is this "cheap gas" that will clog my injector ports and cause deposits? Every "top tier" gas article mentions it, but if the base gasoline in an area is provided by the same distributor and that gas meets the EPA minimum standards, what is "cheap gas"? This is my confusion.

Here's an intersting article from USA TODAY from two weeks ago: http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...t_N.htm?csp=34

[Jimmy Olsen]

Cheap gas is defined as gasoline which only has the minimal EPA level of additives. Gasoline that has the minimal amount of additives is not good enough for the Intrigue if you want peak performance.The Northstar engine is a very high performance engine. There is no way in knowing how much additive you are getting in your gasoline unless it is a Tier-One gas. Tier-one gas is more than a marketing tool for the gasoline companies since the major car manufacturers (except Ford) pushed for more addtives. The fact that not all gasoline marketers have joined the tier-one program doesn't mean anything except that they know that the vast majority of Americans are ignorant about cars and gasoline.

I know that the additives work because I have driven cars using minimal additives for thousands of miles and then gone on a long run trip where I use Chevron gas. After about 5 tanks full I noticed a distinct improvement in performance. BTW, the Shell gas I ususally buy for a penny more a gallon as opposed to "cheap gas" is actually cheaper for me to buy since Shell gives me a 5% rebate, which at $3 a gallon is 15 cents. Hence, the tier-one gas is 14 cents cheaper. The best of both worlds.

[dtownfb]

So what you are saying is gas that meets the minimum EPA standards will clog my fuel lines and cause decrease performance??? And the proof of this is.....your testimony???? give me something to read, give me unbiased lab testing, give me something other then your "seat of the pants" experience. Quite honestly, my personal experience is I have driven cars for thousands of miles that are not Top Tier gas and have not had any fuel system problems. So which one of our opinions matters....neither which is why i am asking for unbiased lab reports, articles, etc.

I'm not trying to argue with you or belittle you. I value your opinion. I'm the type of person who does not believe claims until I see proof. What I have read so far tells me Top Tier gas is about marketing since no one has shown me that the additives in EPA minimum standards gas are not enough for the average car. Again, I'm not saying that the manufacturers of produce Top Tier gas are lying or even that their products don't do what they claim. I just don't believe the claims that "cheap gas" (any gas not branded Top Tier) will not allow your car to acieve peak performance (whatever that is). I view the word "cheap" as negative. If I had purchased a performance car (The Intrigue is not a performance car), then I would follow their recommendation. Holding up a clean piston versus a dirty one is not proof. Putting an exhibit showing two cars, one with Shell gas and the other with "cheap gas", and showing them running side by side doesn't cut with me. Reminds me of the nitrogen in your tires. Regular air is 78% nitrogen. The key thing is to check your tire pressure.

I guess the reason i get upset with this Top Tier gas claim is I view the work "cheap" as a negative. I have no Top Tier gas in my area or at least not in my normal daily travels. Nothing but cheap gas.

[Jimmy Olsen]

Originally Posted by dtownfb

So what you are saying is gas that meets the minimum EPA standards will clog my fuel lines and cause decrease performance??? And the proof of this is.....your testimony???? give me something to read, give me unbiased lab testing, give me something other then your "seat of the pants" experience. Quite honestly, my personal experience is I have driven cars for thousands of miles that are not Top Tier gas and have not had any fuel system problems. So which one of our opinions matters....neither which is why i am asking for unbiased lab reports, articles, etc.

I'm not trying to argue with you or belittle you. I value your opinion. I'm the type of person who does not believe claims until I see proof. What I have read so far tells me Top Tier gas is about marketing since no one has shown me that the additives in EPA minimum standards gas are not enough for the average car. Again, I'm not saying that the manufacturers of produce Top Tier gas are lying or even that their products don't do what they claim. I just don't believe the claims that "cheap gas" (any gas not branded Top Tier) will not allow your car to acieve peak performance (whatever that is). I view the word "cheap" as negative. If I had purchased a performance car (The Intrigue is not a performance car), then I would follow their recommendation. Holding up a clean piston versus a dirty one is not proof. Putting an exhibit showing two cars, one with Shell gas and the other with "cheap gas", and showing them running side by side doesn't cut with me. Reminds me of the nitrogen in your tires. Regular air is 78% nitrogen. The key thing is to check your tire pressure.

I guess the reason i get upset with this Top Tier gas claim is I view the work "cheap" as a negative. I have no Top Tier gas in my area or at least not in my normal daily travels. Nothing but cheap gas.

First of all, I did not say that all gas that is not Top-Tier is "cheap gas". I defined "cheap gas" as any gasoline that has the minimal EPA additives. That is an important difference. I said that we just don't know what additives/amount is in gasoline that is not label top-tier.. Consequently, your personal testimony that you have driven a car for thousands of miles not using top-tier gasoline without fuel system problems does not prove anything since you don't know what additive or amount thereof were in the gas that you bought.

Secondly, I think that the Intrigue has a high-performance engine. Maybe we should have a poll on that question.

I think that if you re-read that article I posted it will show that the Federally mandated amount of additives may not sufficient for some cars. I will find some more information about the problems that unleaded fuel causes for fuel injectors before too long.

BTW, I have nitrogen in all tires of my 3 vehicles. It's the only way to go.

[Jimmy Olsen]

There are some more links:

http://www.sfrcorp.com/news/automake...fuel-fight.php

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

[dtownfb]

That was the point of my example. My personal experieince means nothing in this argument just like your friend's 95 Blazer running bad is a sign of long use of bad fuel or your driving thousands of miles... I also drive 25k miles a year.

Thanks for the websites. Without looking at the one, I'm sure it was funded by the Top Tier group just by it's link.

We'll save the nitrogen debate for another post. Start a poll about the 3.5L being a performance engine. I'm interested in seeing the responses. You know what my answer will be.

[LittleHoov]

Im not saying you cant benefit with this engine from using one brand of gasoline or another.

But as far as actually using a higher octane, meaning the higher the number, the harder it is to ignite, I dont think in this application is necessary.

Two things immediately pop in my mind when thinking about requirement of high octane gas. High compression engines, and forced induction. Both of which serve to create mass quantities of heat, making the fuel/air mix more likely to pre-ignite with a lower grade of gasoline.Also, neither of which apply to the Intrigue.

As maxwedge said in the very first reply, the 3.5 is a fairly low compression engine, and forced induction is obviously not an issue, and im having trouble believing that it creates enough heat otherwise to cause pre-ignition.

I think to call the 3.5 a performance engine is a bit of a stretch, it is a solid performer, and is a very well designed and more sophisticated engine. But I have a hard time saying that I have a performance engine when my car would run mid/high 15s at the fastest.

Again, Im not even touching the detergent debate, but unless you can hook up to a scantool and show me the timing differences between 87 and higher then im not a believer.

[Jimmy Olsen]

I think we need a definition of a "performance engine".

[LittleHoov]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Olsen

I think we need a definition of a "performance engine".

Not an easy thing to pin down, I agree, but I would say that it would be either an engine with a high compression ratio to get maximum hp per displacement. Or an engine with some form of forced induction attached to it. Or in some cases both.

[dtownfb]

I agree littlehoover. 87 octane is all you need for the Intrigue. The 3.5L is a nice engine but that's it. I think a performance engine also needs to be a leader in its class.

I was hoping you could join the detergent Top Tier debate. We need more participants.

Jimmy: Read the two websites and as expected both are biased. One is the top tier analysis and the other the guy has an advertisement for fuel additives at the bottom of the page. Still not convinced since it is not an industry wide standard and the entire initiative was started by BMW. They recognize those who put additional additives but their are others that do meet these standard but choose not to be a part of this group. So who do you believe? It makes me wonder if it is the quality of the gas (standards haven't changed since 1995) or are certain manufacturers fuel systems more sensitive then others? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Jimmy Olsen]

Originally Posted by dtownfb

I agree littlehoover. 87 octane is all you need for the Intrigue. The 3.5L is a nice engine but that's it. I think a performance engine also needs to be a leader in its class.

I was hoping you could join the detergent Top Tier debate. We need more participants.

Jimmy: Read the two websites and as expected both are biased. One is the top tier analysis and the other the guy has an advertisement for fuel additives at the bottom of the page. Still not convinced since it is not an industry wide standard and the entire initiative was started by BMW. They recognize those who put additional additives but their are others that do meet these standard but choose not to be a part of this group. So who do you believe? It makes me wonder if it is the quality of the gas (standards haven't changed since 1995) or are certain manufacturers fuel systems more sensitive then others? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

dtown, the first link was a reprint from the Kansas City Star which I find hard to think of as bias.

I agree that regular grade gas is just fine for the Intrigue, and although the use of premium grade would add a little performance edge, most drivers would never drive their Intrigues to the point that it would matter.

I think that even those major gas marketers who don't belong to the Top Tier group, are adding more additives than the minimal amount required by the EPA.
The people who are probably selling the gasoline with the minimal amount are the smaller "Mom & POP" convienience stores or the smaller local chains.

Like I said earlier, fewer engine deposits means better engine performance. And, the higher the additive package in the gasoline, the cleaner the engine will be. Those are 2 facts that don't seem to be in dispute.

[dtownfb]

<<dtown, the first link was a reprint from the Kansas City Star which I find hard to think of as bias.>>

It was the link to the ad at the bottom of the page and the fact it was on the "Green" page. Still a good post. Like I mentioned you got me interseted in finding out if there is truth to their claims. You got me thinking.

I do agree that since BMW, Honda and Toyota raised this issue, the industry as a whole problably "policed" themselves and increased the additives. With the competition for gasoline so intense now, you can't afford to be label as having poor quality gasoline. Unfortunately we will never know.

<<Like I said earlier, fewer engine deposits means better engine performance. And, the higher the additive package in the gasoline, the cleaner the engine will be. Those are 2 facts that don't seem to be in dispute.>>

Never disputed this claim. My point is what additives are necessary to ensure performance of my car. Is it the EPA minimum? Is it 5 times the EPA minimum? Or is it somewhere in the middle? Which additives are the necessary one? how do I know which additives my local Sheetz or Rutter stores add on top of the EPA minimum? Do they add any at all? Who made BMW, toyota, Honda, Audi,etc the king of gasollne fuel quality? these are my questions.

I gues my frustration is the gas in my area is all priced within 5 cents of one another but we have no Top Tier gas stations. These gas stations qualify as your "small local chains" and "Mom & Pop convenience stores". Waht do I do? I guess i can't buy a BMW.

[Jimmy Olsen]

Originally Posted by dtownfb

<<dtown, the first link was a reprint from the Kansas City Star which I find hard to think of as bias.>>

It was the link to the ad at the bottom of the page and the fact it was on the "Green" page. Still a good post. Like I mentioned you got me interseted in finding out if there is truth to their claims. You got me thinking.

I do agree that since BMW, Honda and Toyota raised this issue, the industry as a whole problably "policed" themselves and increased the additives. With the competition for gasoline so intense now, you can't afford to be label as having poor quality gasoline. Unfortunately we will never know.

<<Like I said earlier, fewer engine deposits means better engine performance. And, the higher the additive package in the gasoline, the cleaner the engine will be. Those are 2 facts that don't seem to be in dispute.>>

Never disputed this claim. My point is what additives are necessary to ensure performance of my car. Is it the EPA minimum? Is it 5 times the EPA minimum? Or is it somewhere in the middle? Which additives are the necessary one? how do I know which additives my local Sheetz or Rutter stores add on top of the EPA minimum? Do they add any at all? Who made BMW, toyota, Honda, Audi,etc the king of gasollne fuel quality? these are my questions.

I gues my frustration is the gas in my area is all priced within 5 cents of one another but we have no Top Tier gas stations. These gas stations qualify as your "small local chains" and "Mom & Pop convenience stores". Waht do I do? I guess i can't buy a BMW.

Doesn't seem like there is much for you to do at this except buy some Techron additive every 5000 miles or as needed. I guess you could email those local gasoline marketers in your area and ask them what additives they use and in what amount. Would be interesting to see what they say.

I'm just tickled pink that Shell moved into my area about 4 years ago. Now, I don't bother getting a "throttle body and fuel injector" cleaning at the local oil change place because I can't tell any difference in the car's performance after getting it done.

If you ever take a long road trip in your Intrigue, buy Chevron or Shell and I suspect you will see the difference in your car's performance after 5 or 6 tankfuls.

[dtownfb]

As much as I ma debating with you about this, I do follow some basic guidelines. Since price is normally not an issue in my area: 1) buy gas where convenient (during my normal travels); 2) frequent places that have a lot of business (high turnover of gas); 3) when traveling out of the area, buy name brand or a brand I am familar with.

I'll try e-mailing the local companies. See what kind of response I get.

[Rolm]

Gentelman great debate. The bottom line is this, now that premium gas is only 6 cents a liter more here in the Toronto area. I use it at every fill-up and I added the same gas in my lawnmover and weed-wacker and in my leaf blower I had to pull at least 10 times to start the weed-wacker and the leaf blower with regular gas and it only takes 1 or 2 pulls with premium gas. I am sold I will use premium in my car and all other gas engines from this point on. Call me crazy but the proof is in the pudding.