Tires - Nitrogen versus Air

[TENGRAM]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

No tire should have liquid water in it unless the air compressor used to fill the tire
had liquid in the lines and is squirting water out the hose!

I've never seen any air line do that....any water should collect in the BOTTOM
of the compresor tank - not go out the hose!

you're kidding, right? EVERY air compressor i've ever seen has had some amount of moisture coming out the hose. reason why they sell evaporators/dryers for air compressors.

the difference is nitrogen condenses at a much higher temp and/or pressure than "air".

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

If water were in a Nitrogen filled tire, corrosion would be negligible (wheels)

i'd question everything we know in science if you found H2O in a nitrogen filled tire...


is N2 a "scam" for you street driven vehicle? depends on who you are. i agree the benefits are marginal, but for the person trying to maximize reliability and performance in their car N2 is just one more option they have.

[DOCTORBILL]

What do you mean by,
"the difference is nitrogen condenses at a much higher temp and/or pressure than "air". "?

I get water out of my air compressor tank when I open the valve at the bottom
to release pressure when I am done using it.

I have never seen liquid water come out of an air hose, however....

As to Nitrogen filled tires "performing" better - back to "where is the data?"

Define "performance".

How do you quantitate "performance". What is the methodology?
What measurements are taken and when?

Since air is 80% nitrogen anyway - I seriously doubt that 20% more of it is
going to affect anything.

I suspect that everything that is done today using Nitrogen in tires originates
from "feelings" and opinions....close to nothing measured and quantitated.

As to water being in compressed gases, many cylinders of Natural Gas, Propane and Butane have water in them!

I was in Argentina back in the early 70's in San Carlos de Bariloche next to
the Andes and Chile on my post-doc.

We had to heat our little cabin with "gas" in big tanks that were delivered to the cabin.

One day I disconnected an empty tank and rolled it away from the cabin.
It was still very heavy and sloshed.

I opened the valve and upended the tank - 1/4 of a tank of water squirted out
and gas boiled out of the water.

The damned gas company was cheating the Hell out of its customers by not
emptying the water out of the tanks...delivering 3/4 of the gas we paid for!

Just FYI....

DoctorBill

[TENGRAM]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

What do you mean by,
"the difference is nitrogen condenses at a much higher temp and/or pressure than "air". "?

sorry, i meant lower temp and/or higher pressure.

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I get water out of my air compressor tank when I open the valve at the bottom
to release pressure when I am done.

I have never seen liquid water come out of an air hose....

you have an air compressor? go out there and open the valve (at the hose end of course, not the bottom of the tank) on your hand, moisture will come out. go to the local gas station and do the same thing on their air compressor, LOTS of moisture will come out. again, EVERY air compressor i have ever used (and i've used a few...) has had some amounts of moisture coming out of the hose.

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

As to Nitrogen filled tires "performing" better - back to "where is the data?"

Define "performance".

How do you quantitate "performance". What is the methodology?
What measurements are taken and when?

Since air is 80% nitrogen anyway - I seriously doubt that 20% more of it is
going to affect anything.

greater performance because the pressure stays more consistent from lap to lap on a race car, better performance because there will be no moisture in a N2 filled tire. no moisture will gather around the circumference of the tire, so there will be less inertia in the tire which leads to better performance (in the same way that lighter wheels, or even lighter reciprocating parts, lead to better performance).

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I suspect that everything that is done today using Nitrogen in tires originates
from "feelings" and opinions....close to nothing measured and quantitated.

i've already shown you empirical data proving some of the benefit of N2. i believe the use of N2 for tires is based on science. am i going to major in chemistry to prove my point here? no. just finished up chemistry 2 and i'm fed up with it.

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

As to water being in compressed gases, many cylinders of Natural Gas, Propane and Butane have water in them!

I was in Argentina back in the early 70's in San Carlos de Bariloche next to
the Andes and Chile on my post-doc.

We had to heat our little cabin with "gas" in big tanks that were delivered to the cabin.

One day I disconnected an empty tank and rolled it away from the cabin.
It was still very heavy and sloshed.

I opened the valve and upended the tank - 1/4 of a tank of water squirted out
and gas boiled out of the water.

The damned gas company was cheating the Hell out of its customers by not
emptying the water out of the tanks...delivering 3/4 of the gas we paid for!

Just FYI....

DoctorBill

that sucks, but that is not the discussion at hand. for this topic lets assume that the N2 we're talking about is pure N2...which it had better be for the price.

[DOCTORBILL]

"just finished up chemistry 2 and i'm fed up with it."

How can that be - Chemistry is more fun than a barrel of monkeys!

"for this topic lets assume that the N2 we're talking about is pure N2...which it had better be for the price." - i.e. no moisture in it.

There is that word again...."assume"

"...greater performance because the pressure stays more consistent from lap to lap on a race car...."

How would you know that?

"...no moisture will gather around the circumference of the tire."

If the water is a gas in vapor form in a warmed up tire, it cannot accumulate
around the circumference of the tire. Gases mix almost instantly.

Corrected - ""the difference is nitrogen condenses at a much lower temp and/or pressure than "air". "

The condensation/boiling point of Nitrogen gas is -320.42 °F while that of Oxygen gas is -297.31 °F.....again what has that to do with anything?

You are nowhere near those temperatures even at the North or South Poles in winter.

I suppose we have beaten this subject to death.

DoctorBill

[TENGRAM]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

"...greater performance because the pressure stays more consistent from lap to lap on a race car...."

How would you know that?

"...no moisture will gather around the circumference of the tire."

If the water is a gas in vapor form in a warmed up tire, it cannot accumulate
around the circumference of the tire. Gases mix almost instantly.

Corrected - ""the difference is nitrogen condenses at a much lower temp and/or pressure than "air". "

The condensation/boiling point of Nitrogen gas is -320.42 °F while that of Oxygen gas is -297.31 °F.....again what has that to do with anything?

air is not just o2, nor is it solely o2 and n2. on average air is 1% water vapor, and it can be as much as 4% according to some sources i have found. this vapor accounts for more extreme pressure fluctuations in tires, and for moisture in the tires at temp and under pressure (which, as i pointed out will add to the inertial mass of the wheel/tire combo).

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I suppose we have beaten this subject to death.

DoctorBill

yep.

[DOCTORBILL]

If tires warm up fairly quickly, and at ambient temperatures water is a gas, then how can...."this vapor accounts for more extreme pressure fluctuations in tires..." ??

And what is the definition of "extreme" - 2-3 PSI ?

If the fluctuations you talk about are during the several minutes it takes for tires
to get to running temperatures, then this isn't worth worrying about.

And remember, we are talking about water in the tires which was not the original subject - Nitrogen vs Air.

So my conclusions on this are:

1. There is such a minor and mostly undocumented difference between
using Air versus Nitrogen that it is not worth thinking about.

2. If possible, use dry air to fill one's tires.

"So let it be written, so let it be done."........Rameses III


DoctorBill

[TENGRAM]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

If tires warm up fairly quickly, and at ambient temperatures water is a gas, then how can...."this vapor accounts for more extreme pressure fluctuations in tires..." ??

at ambient temperatures water is mostly liquid. even if the tires warm up to a high temperature the water in the tires is under pressure, which means it becomes gas at a higher temperature. this is the same reason water collects in your air compressor.

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

And what is the definition of "extreme" - 2-3 PSI ?

from the discussion on corner carver's forum:

with air:

Originally Posted by 03Sandy

The RA1's pick up 10-12 lbs of pressure during a 25 min run

with N2:

Originally Posted by mitchntx

I filled my new 255/50/16 RA1s to 29lbs cold and they grew to 36psi on a VERY hot track.

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

If the fluctuations you talk about are during the several minutes it takes for tires
to get to running temperatures, then this isn't worth worrying about.

maybe not worth talking about for you. in a daily driver the pressure change would be minimal. the moisture would (does) still bother me.

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

And remember, we are talking about water in the tires which was not the original subject - Nitrogen vs Air.

water, introduced into the tire as a component of air. this is part of the subject.

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

So my conclusions on this are:

1. There is such a minor and mostly undocumented difference between
using Air versus Nitrogen that it is not worth thinking about.

2. If possible, use dry air to fill one's tires.

"So let it be written, so let it be done."........Rameses III


DoctorBill

again, maybe its not worth it to you to think about, but to some it may be worth looking into. am i going to go fill my metro's tires with nitrogen? no, but i might use it in my mustang's tires. honestly though, i don't think you started this topic to be swayed either way. i think you already had your mind made up and are unwilling to change your opinion. i have however enjoyed the discussion and to be honest the information presented here has convinced me more than ever that it is beneficial to use N2 over air. thanks

"instead of looking for 100 places to remove a pound, look for 1600 places to remove an ounce"....unknown origins

[DOCTORBILL]

Many things to comment on....

1. "honestly though, i don't think you started this topic to be swayed either
way. i think you already had your mind made up and are unwilling to change your
opinion."

People often misunderstand this....to be of a scientific mind, one must normally be skeptical of everything.

If we both (or others too!) got on this thread and all agreed with each other, very
little would be determined or discovered.

If we all agreed that Nitrogen is fantastic and that water in the tires is always occurring, then many people
reading this would think it was all true and a lot of money and effort might be wasted.

They'd go around proliferating the idea and that is how goofy things get believed by everyone.

So I am playing Devil's Advocate just to counterpoint you and others here.

If you present reasonable ideas and can back them up with actual data, then I will agree - but not until then.

I don't think that that is an unreasonable approach to take - even in one's daily life.

I am impressed that you haven't called me an idiot after going this far and having me
challenge your comments. Most folk get pissed off by now!

Onward.....

2. "at ambient temperatures water is mostly liquid. even if the tires warm up to a high temperature the water in the tires is under pressure, which means it becomes gas at a higher temperature. this is the same reason water collects in your air compressor."

I do not disagree - mostly.

Water collects in the compressor is the key word here.

If the water collects in the compressor (mine is set to stop compressing around 100 PSI in the tank), then it should not come out the hose if the outlet
tube is at the top or side of the tank.

Thus, water should not be going into the tires! It gets drained from the compressor later on....or should be!

When you put the air into the tires from the compressor at 100% humidity at 100 PSI, the pressure goes down to 35 PSI and should actually dry up somewhat.

Water at 100% humidity at 100 PSI should be maybe 33% humidity at 35 PSI.

Then when the tire warms up, the percent humidity will drop even further to maybe 5% humidity.

From this discussion, I am going to look into finding a drying device to put inline
with my home compressor air line....!

3. Water in the tires.

I know that the tire pressure goes up when you drive because the tires get warmer (hotter?).
Looks like they might go from 35 PSI to maybe 50 - 60 PSI on a hot summer drive on a freeway.

I have no idea what temp my tires get to in winter....

But the key words are pressure and temp increases. Thus the liquid versus gas phase water inside
the tire shouldn't worry anyone since the water should stay in the gas phase.

If a few drops of water are in ones tires, it should be in the gas phase very quickly upon driving a few miles.

Once in the gas phase, it is homogeneously mixed with the air and is simply part of the gas in the tires.

Now if you have a lot of water in your tires - then you have problems! I agree on that!

If you have maybe a tablespoonful (10 mL) or MORE, then you are getting your tires filled from some shlock
compressor station run by Bozo's !

Honest to God - I have never seen water come out of ANY compressor line used to fill tires - ANYWHERE!

My compressor (bought at COSTCO) never spews water out the hose - it comes out only when I open the valve
underneath the tank.

That is why I think this water in the air thing is not a general problem for the public to worry about.

4. From all this, I am not convinced Nitrogen in tires is worth the cost, the effort and the concern to pursue.

5. Water in the Air Lines when filling tires - maybe if you use a public air hose.

Kind of like using a public toilet - be careful. Maybe push the little valve button and see if water comes out.
If not, you are probably safe. If yes, don't use that air station to top up one's tires.

6. Maybe - if you are concerned about water in your tires - you should bleed the air out after driving (tires hot) and
put new air in from a compressor with no water in the line.

That should flush any water out of the tire. Just like you do when you flush O2 out with dry N2 gas!

I really hope this thread has been useful for someone....

It has probably not changed anyone's opinion on Nitrogen versus Air.

DoctorBill - the skeptic.

[TENGRAM]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I am impressed that you haven't called me an idiot after going this far and having me
challenge your comments. Most folk get pissed off by now!

really, not my style. i don't argue to win an argument, i am only interested in the truth.

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I really hope this thread has been useful for someone....

It has probably not changed anyone's opinion on Nitrogen versus Air.

DoctorBill - the skeptic.

i get the feeling that we are both of the mindset that we could argue about ("discuss") this until the end of time and never conclude a thing. thats ok. as i said, it has been enjoyable and i have learned a thing or two in the process.

i wonder also if this has changed anyone's mind. probably not. i'm thoroughly spent on this subject so this is where i end the debate. i think there is enough info here that someone who may not have a clue about this initially, might be able to form a valid opinion. i would recommend to anyone reading this to do more research though, and there is plenty of it out there. some is fact and some is conjecture, you make the call.

[Woodie83]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I know that the tire pressure goes up when you drive because the tires get warmer (hotter?).
Looks like they might go from 35 PSI to maybe 50 - 60 PSI on a hot summer drive on a freeway.

No way, they might go from 35 to 40. This is only an issue for racers, who measure tire pressure in 1/4 psi increments and run tires at temperatures near boiling.