break in period

[bambam89lx]

Originally Posted by MT-2500

Well everybody is welcome to there ideas on it.

Maybe years ago with old type rings yes we used nodetergent oil to brake in rings.
And when they got worn out it was back to nodetergent.
But rings and the so called breakin process has changed over the years.
Newer type rings have very little breakin to do.
I have pulled engines down with 100K-150k on them and they still have the crosshatch hone marks in the cylinder walls.
How many cars engines in the last 20-25 years have even seen nodetergent oil.
How many new cars come out with it in a new engine?
I even have a very hard time even finding the stuff.
How many re-ring manufactures co. say to use nondetergent oil to seat there rings?
MT

WTF? Dude, you're fucking stupid.
Tell me exactly what the difference between an "old" ring vs. a "new" ring is. Please, enlighten me. You only use nondetergent, solid weight oil for the break in.
-New cars are already broken in from the factory.
-I buy non-detergent 30W oil from walmart, autozone, pepboys, benny's, etc. It's not hard at all to find.

You use non-detergent for breakin because you don't want any foreign chemicals in the oil for the breakin process. There's no need for them. You want as much ring to cylinder contact as possible, hence the need for non-detergent, 30W oil.

Do yourself a favor and talk to a HONDA builder. He'll tell you the same thing. You're right, we do have our own opinions. Consider this though, any reputable honda builder will tell you you're foolish to run anything but non-detergent solid 30w oil in a fresh motor for breakin. It has nothing to do with rings, it has to do with mechanics and understanding how an engine operates. I guarantee If you go buy a piston ring for a 90 integra, it's going to be the same fucking part number as the piston ring for a 01 integra, as well as an 00 civic si, 89 crx siR, 96 del sol vtec, 92 gsr, etc. It goes even further back for Dseries rings. So what exactly has changed here? The only thing that has changed in the last 15 years maybe, is your intelligence level.

Like me or love me. Don't care. But I won't let you spread misinformation to America's honda-builders of tomorrow.

[bambam89lx]

Originally Posted by hondacivic99sivtec

ok so i drive the car for 20 miles. (bambam) while doing that i speed up and let the engine slow itself down? then afeter the initial 20 i drive it like i stole it? my redline is 10,000. i don't have a dyno to tune on but i do have a stretch of road that's 1 1/2 miles long to drive up and down alll day.

here, I'll simplify it:
-Very first startup: allow motor to heat up to operating temp.
-Tune afr to 14.5-15.0:1 @ idle.
-Make sure afr's are within 13:1 to 15:1 at all times. You don't want to wash out your rings w/ fuel and prevent them from seating
-as long as your afr's are right, you're good.
-2nd gear or 3rd gear (3rd gear is better, but requires more road).
-give the car 50% throttle pulls all the way up to 3k, then 4k, then 5k, then 6k, then 7k, then 8k, then 9k, then upto redline allowing the car to slow itself down each time, while still in gear.
-Repeat for 70% throttle and then WOT. You may use this time to tune the AFR's as well. Do not spend prolonged time if the car ever sees <13:1 afr or greater than 15:1 afr. You do want your afr's a little more on the lean side for break in, but nothing crazy.
-for the first 20 miles, make sure to vary the rev's as much as possible, meaning don't get caught in traffic, and don't let the car idle (except for the initial warmup). Idling is the next worst thing you could do to new rings because you aren't creating any vaccuum.
-most of the break in will occur within the first 10-20 minutes of running, but the process is still slightly ongoing for about the next 500-1000 miles.
-at 1000 miles, there's no doubt that the car is broken in, and you can now start using synthetic if you'd like. I suggest German Castrol Sythetic (the green colored kind). Mobil 1 is fine as well.
-as long as your clearances are within spec, and everything was torqued down correctly, your motor will be fine. If it blows now, it wouldv'e blown down the road regardless. The motor isn't going to magically become indestructable because you've babied it for the first xxx miles. That's actually the worst thing you could do during breakin because you haven't presented the normal stresses to the motor that it will see down the road when you race it.
-next, give the car 70% throttle pulls in each gear working your way upto redline

[TheSilentChamber]

This is the site I was mentioning. http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[hondacivic99sivtec]

how the hell am i suppose to tune? with what? i don't got any gauges. and i don't have a laptop or ems system.

[hondacivic99sivtec]

not exactly an indepth article there tsc. seems to be alot about motorcycles. i don't know. i'm still con fused. i guess i will do a mix of both. give gas and let off for the first 20 miles then proceed to beat the shit out of it. does that mean for the first 20 no vtec? then after wards i can hit vtec?

[hondacivic99sivtec]

bambam---
do i let the car idle up to operating temp? or do i drive it around the block to get there?

[bambam89lx]

Originally Posted by hondacivic99sivtec

bambam---
do i let the car idle up to operating temp? or do i drive it around the block to get there?

It's a good practice to never drive the car until it has reached operating temp. I know it's a PITA, but if you love your motor, then you'll do it.

[bambam89lx]

Originally Posted by hondacivic99sivtec

how the hell am i suppose to tune? with what? i don't got any gauges. and i don't have a laptop or ems system.

That's for you to determine bro. You need a chipped (with an eeprom) ecu. Then find yourself a good tuner w/ a wideband (or buy your own).

[bambam89lx]

Originally Posted by hondacivic99sivtec

not exactly an indepth article there tsc. seems to be alot about motorcycles. i don't know. i'm still con fused. i guess i will do a mix of both. give gas and let off for the first 20 miles then proceed to beat the shit out of it. does that mean for the first 20 no vtec? then after wards i can hit vtec?

That article is fine. It's the same thing. A 4 stroke is a 4 stroke, as he mentions.
Read my last big post, i explained it all there.

[hondacivic99sivtec]

so i can't start my car till then?

what if i just buy a gauge?
digital with numbers or just the lil lite up line?

[hondacivic99sivtec]

oh bambam what would we all do without you.
can you just fly out here and tune my car for me.

we'll make it a keeger or something.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by bambam89lx

WTF? Dude, you're fucking stupid.
Tell me exactly what the difference between an "old" ring vs. a "new" ring is. Please, enlighten me. You only use nondetergent, solid weight oil for the break in.
-New cars are already broken in from the factory.
-I buy non-detergent 30W oil from walmart, autozone, pepboys, benny's, etc. It's not hard at all to find.

You use non-detergent for breakin because you don't want any foreign chemicals in the oil for the breakin process. There's no need for them. You want as much ring to cylinder contact as possible, hence the need for non-detergent, 30W oil.

Do yourself a favor and talk to a HONDA builder. He'll tell you the same thing. You're right, we do have our own opinions. Consider this though, any reputable honda builder will tell you you're foolish to run anything but non-detergent solid 30w oil in a fresh motor for breakin. It has nothing to do with rings, it has to do with mechanics and understanding how an engine operates. I guarantee If you go buy a piston ring for a 90 integra, it's going to be the same fucking part number as the piston ring for a 01 integra, as well as an 00 civic si, 89 crx siR, 96 del sol vtec, 92 gsr, etc. It goes even further back for Dseries rings. So what exactly has changed here? The only thing that has changed in the last 15 years maybe, is your intelligence level.

Like me or love me. Don't care. But I won't let you spread misinformation to America's honda-builders of tomorrow.

For your information about modern and old rings.
Old engines had babbit rods and old type cast rings.
Then along came inserts and cast rings.
That needed non detergent oil for breakin.
Then they started using chrome rings.
That were still a little hard to seat and some people used nodetergent oil to breakin on a ring job.
Then along came molley rings
Not much breakin required.
Then along comes plasma molley rings.
Again no breakin required.

Within the last 25 years I have never heard of a major engine rebuilder or new car manufacture or a seller of new engines or a piston ring manufacture recommending using nodetergent oil for breakin.

As said everyone is welcome to there ideas But.

I am not here to get into a pissing match with a 21 year old that knows everything and thinks everbody else is stupid.
I have been there and know the growing pains of a 21 year old that thinks he knows it all and I have kids that have been 21 years and thought they knowed it all and now they have kids with the same problem.
But one thing for sure I am sure not stupid enought to do this to breakin a engine.
As you stated to do.
give the car 50% throttle pulls all the way up to 3k, then 4k, then 5k, then 6k, then 7k, then 8k, then 9k, then upto redline allowing the car to slow itself down each time, while still in gear.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by hondacivic99sivtec

i just rebuilt my b16, we are in the process of dropping it back in and fixing the originals owners wiring crap job. everything on the engine is new. how many miles does it need before i can drive it? know what i mean? some have been saying 500 before vtec others ppl are telling me between 1000 and 200. what's your opinions? or facts. those are always good.

To better help you.
Did you give the cylinder walls a heavey or course hone job.
Can you tell us what kind of rings you put in it.
Cast, chrome or molley or plasma molley or exc.?
Was it just a ring job or bored out?
What kind of oil are you putting in it?
MT

[bambam89lx]

Originally Posted by MT-2500

For your information about modern and old rings.
Old engines had babbit rods and old type cast rings.
Then along came inserts and cast rings.
That needed non detergent oil for breakin.
Then they started using chrome rings.
That were still a little hard to seat and some people used nodetergent oil to breakin on a ring job.
Then along came molley rings
Not much breakin required.
Then along comes plasma molley rings.
Again no breakin required.

Within the last 25 years I have never heard of a major engine rebuilder or new car manufacture or a seller of new engines or a piston ring manufacture recommending using nodetergent oil for breakin.

As said everyone is welcome to there ideas But.

I am not here to get into a pissing match with a 21 year old that knows everything and thinks everbody else is stupid.
I have been there and know the growing pains of a 21 year old that thinks he knows it all and I have kids that have been 21 years and thought they knowed it all and now they have kids with the same problem.
But one thing for sure I am sure not stupid enought to do this to breakin a engine.
As you stated to do.
give the car 50% throttle pulls all the way up to 3k, then 4k, then 5k, then 6k, then 7k, then 8k, then 9k, then upto redline allowing the car to slow itself down each time, while still in gear.

Let's not play the age game. Age has no coorelation to intelligence or experience. Crap, just ask my 29 year old girlfriend. So what's your argument? As I stated earlier, talk to a honda builder. Earl Laskey, Jeff @ Import Builders, Tom aka Tbone @ honda-tech. These are some of the top Honda builders in the industry. If you don't like my opinion, then so be it. Ask their's. I know for a damn fact I don't burn one ounce of oil when my motor's turning 9200 rpm's, and that's with synthetic. Same results with any of the other motors I've put together for both myself and customers.
Piston ring compostion has no weight on the fact that non-detergent SHOULD be used for breakin. Is it necessary? No. I'll agree on that. But is it smart? Yes. Combustion engine operation and dynamics still apply regardless. I agree, the breakin on chromoly rings is less harsh. But, additives (detergents, etc.) can still create an impedement to the breakin process. This is where having a good understanding of what is actually going on, on a minute level during breakin and normal engine operation would benefit you. You want the rings to contact the cylinders as much as possible. It's what you WANT; so why would you want something in the oil to impede that process?
As for being a know-it-all...I'll accept that. Thanks for the compliment anyway. Don't get that confused with being a close-minded individual. That is something that I am not, which is more of what you are trying to imply. I refuse to offer advise to someone unless I know it's truth, and I'll continue to speak from experience only. I have my credibility on the line w/ every statement I make, especially when it comes to building motors. I'll just leave it at that. My opinion's on the table as is your's. Anyone building a motor should not just use one or two person's opinions as a sole guide anyway. Anyone wishing to build, rebuild, or breakin a new motor should do more research and seek multiple opinions.. Honda-tech.com would be a good place for more in-depth conversation w/ some of those reputable people.

-bambam

[bambam89lx]

Originally Posted by hondacivic99sivtec

so i can't start my car till then?

what if i just buy a gauge?
digital with numbers or just the lil lite up line?

Well, you can start your car anytime you want. That's totally your decision in the end. I just wouldn't recommend it. BTW, forgive me if you posted it, but are you running higher than stock compression or aftermarket cams? If your upgrades are limited to intake and exhaust components, then your motor will be fine off of the stock ecu w/out tuning. The AFR's will be close enough to not worry. Now if you have changed out the cams for units other than what the stock ecu support, then you will need to tune. Most imporant though, is if you've increased the bore, stroke, or compression of the motor. It will definitely require tuning at that point. Don't mistake though, tuning would be an advantage for you regardless. It could be the difference between a 132whp motor or a 141whp motor. That's the difference between good tuning and a proper breakin versus no tuning and an improper breakin. Chances are, the motor w/ the improper breakin will run fine, but it may consume oil and have slightly lower compression, therefore lowering your power output slightly.

As for me flying out there, I would. But it wouldn't be worth it for you to pay for a $500 plane ticket, then another $100 for my labor, as well as a hotel for a night. It'd end up costing you about $750 just for me to come tune your shit....haha. I can send you in the right direction as to exactly everything you'd need to tune your car. It's about $550 worth of parts and labor. You'd definitely learn alot about ecu's, electronics, and tuning along the way. Patience is the key to this sport. You can never stop learning.