North Korea has successful nuclear weapons test

[VR43000GT]

Originally Posted by thrasher

Good for North Korea. It's a sovereign nation, they have the right to develop nuclear capabilities if they so wish.

I guess that is why people like you do not make major decisions in this country. So if they are "sovereign" you think they should be allowed to have nuclear weapons? There can't be a standard rule saying that if a country is sovereign that they can hold nuclear weapons no matter what their intentions are.

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by bnaylor

On the preemptive strike.....I agree forget it. That is a pipe dream. The American people do not have a stomach for another war especially with North Korea and the casualties that will be involved. Looking back at the Korean War (Conflict) if we are to learn from history we lost 33,000 in combat and approximately 100,000 were wounded. The Korean War was limited to a regional conflict and never evolved to a World War even with China's and the Soviet Union's involvement. Technically the Korean War never ended. Cessation is based on a truce only.

I agree that the casualties steming from a ground war wouldn't be anything anyone would want to contemplate for any reason short of Kim Jong turning Seoul into a crater (beyond doubtful). However the reason the Korean War was so costly can be brought down to two factors: Chinese involvement and a duration measured in years. I think it's fairly safe to say that China wouldn't be pumping troops into North Korea as they did before. As for the length, keep in mind that no matter how large their army, North Korea couldn't sustain a war. They simply don't have the agricultral or industrial capacity to keep up with the utterly massive amount of material a war on such a huge scale would require. Most estimates I've seen in various books and news publications are between a few weeks and few months, even if they were to totally ransack and starve their populace to supply their military, which they already do anyway.

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by bnaylor

Hating GWB is one thing but giving ole Kim a pat on the back is absurd. No rogue nation or sponsor of terrorism has a divine or sovereign right to nukes.

Nobody is giving KJ Il a pat on the back. The point is that the United States has no place to step in and police the situation. I have seen nothing to suggest that North Korea is willing to use nuclear weapons in an offensive, pre-emptive manner. Have you? As I already stated, nuclear weapons should not exist, and the massive stockpiles that the US maintains are indicative of the way we do business. That is to say, shoot first and ask questions later. That policy will/does not work, especially when dealing with a nuclear capable state. I never said N.Korea has the right to launch nuclear weapons. Possession is vastly different from utilization or intent of utilization

I guess that is why people like you do not make major decisions in this country. So if they are "sovereign" you think they should be allowed to have nuclear weapons? There can't be a standard rule saying that if a country is sovereign that they can hold nuclear weapons no matter what their intentions are.

Indeed. The people who make major decisions in this country have killed 45,000 innocent civilians in 3 years with plans to increase troop numbers and further extend an illegitimate war, and have inspired a whole new generation of terrorists bent on revenge against those who have blown up their families. Yeah, I definitely feel that their decision making is sound. For sure.

[Muscletang]

I have talked to several Korean War veterns and I can say it wouldn't be pretty. Their strategy is much different than ours. You can deny it but they DO NOT CARE ABOUT LIFE OVER THERE. It's a numbers game to them and they have more.

I've talked to several guys that said you could shoot at their lines and stack their dead up six feet high and they'd just crawl over them and keep coming. Granted this was more of a Chinease tactic since they had more but the Koreans used it too. Their soldiers weren't cared for and were given a gun and basic clothes. They were then ordered to charge into the Americans until they broke.

Do you think the current North Korean leader cares about this troops? FUCK NO. If we ever go to war with them expect the same. Thousands and thousands charging our troops.

Now with that said, how will they respond with nukes? Hmmm, lose mass numbers of their own troops to kill your own. Lose a mass number of your population to kill your enemy?

[VR43000GT]

Originally Posted by thrasher

Indeed. The people who make major decisions in this country have killed 45,000 innocent civilians in 3 years with plans to increase troop numbers and further extend an illegitimate war, and have inspired a whole new generation of terrorists bent on revenge against those who have blown up their families. Yeah, I definitely feel that their decision making is sound. For sure.

Wow, that really is bad. What about the millions of innocent people killed in WWII? Yes, millions of innocent civilians died in that war too. I guess your right, on second thought we should have just tucked the tail between our legs when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and let the Jews, handicapped, ect. slowy starve in concentration camps so we could spare those lives of the innocent. I hate the fact the innocent people get killed in war, I really do. I think war is a terrible thing to be in and have the upmost respect for anybody who goes into the military but that is what it is. All throughout the history of mankind, innocent people have been killed. It's a very sad fact but it comes with war. Now I know this is a different war that we are in and you obviously do not agree with it (as hundreds of thousand thought we should not be in WWII at the time ....seriously). I for one find myself questioning it sometimes but I also like to take a look at some benefits. Why not? Just try it. We captured an evil dictator who tortured countless INNOCENT people and murdered many thousands. In fact, there have been MANY residents in Iraq that have said it was a worse when Saddam was in power than it is now with the U.S military. All I am saying is you just aren't giving the whole story but instead just complaining about he did this and he did that.

I think if you ever had to experience something where some of your own family dies like so many on 9/11 because of an attack in one way or another from terrorists and you are left with dead kids and a wife that was horrifically burned, I don't think you would say, "Well, they were from a sovereign nation so they had the right to develop whatever kind of military and weapons they wanted."

[Toksin]

You're forgetting that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

In any case, back on topic.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by thrasher

Good for North Korea. It's a sovereign nation, they have the right to develop nuclear capabilities if they so wish.

Where would you feel comfortable drawing a line, then?

They can own nukes as long as they don't sell them? Or, it's OK for them to sell them, as long as they only sell them to "responsible" adults? Kim is nuts. Period. He doesn't give a rip what anyone thinks, and it's going to spell trouble.

From recent news reports, it has been said that the US has refused to enter talks without a coalition of nations in on the talks as well. Might be the first reasonable thing we've seen yet.

Even China has denounced NK's actions. Let's see how this one pans out.

[VR43000GT]

Originally Posted by Toksin

You're forgetting that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

In any case, back on topic.

I am aware of that. I was just stating in the second paragraph that as an example. Not trying to relate it to Iraq.

[Toksin]

Ah, I stand corrected

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

I have talked to several Korean War veterns and I can say it wouldn't be pretty. Their strategy is much different than ours. You can deny it but they DO NOT CARE ABOUT LIFE OVER THERE. It's a numbers game to them and they have more.

I've talked to several guys that said you could shoot at their lines and stack their dead up six feet high and they'd just crawl over them and keep coming. Granted this was more of a Chinease tactic since they had more but the Koreans used it too. Their soldiers weren't cared for and were given a gun and basic clothes. They were then ordered to charge into the Americans until they broke.

I used to talk to a Korean War Vet, my father (Rip). He didn't like talking much about it but when he did all you could do was listen in total amazement. I guess the lesson to be learned is never underestimate the enemy.

Although there was much Red Chinese Army influence, the way they fight is unorthodox compared to civilized and military standards today. Even peasants were ordered into battle using pitchforks, shovels, swords, knives, any thing they could get their hands on. The attacks were launched in waves, one after another. They would blow trumpets/horns during the attack to freak you out. The American soldiers to include United Nations troops and Marines would run out of ammo and had to go to fixed bayonets and hand to hand fighting. After that then the Red Chinese Army regulars would show up to finish things off. Then you'd have to put up with the cold Manchurian winter which is brutle. We lost alot of Marines at the battle of the Chosan Reservoir many freezing to death and the terrain dividing North and South is very mountainous. Many wound up as POWS.

This is just food for thought.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by bnaylor

Although there was much Red Chinese Army influence, the way they fight is unorthodox compared to civilized and military standards today. Even peasants were ordered into battle using pitchforks, shovels, swords, knives, any thing they could get their hands on. The attacks were launched in waves, one after another. They would blow trumpets/horns during the attack to freak you out. The American soldiers to include United Nations troops and Marines would run out of ammo and had to go to fixed bayonets and hand to hand fighting. After that then the Red Chinese Army regulars would show up to finish things off. Then you'd have to put up with the cold Manchurian winter which is brutle. We lost alot of Marines at the battle of the Chosan Reservoir many freezing to death and the terrain dividing North and South is very mountainous. Many wound up as POWS.

This is just food for thought.

My dad (USMC) pretty much told us the same thing. They literally just kept "throwing" bodies until the allies ran out of ammo, then came in and mopped up.

That should definitely give us food for thought.

The only thing we'd have in our favor is tactical nukes, and those aren't any good for close in-fighting.

[1SlowAccord]

I have mixed feelings about this one. On one hand, I do not like the thought of N. Korea making nukes, not because I think that they will end up using them (unless they are attacked first), but because they might be sold to others who might try to use one. On the other, as someone else has pointed out, they can build whatever the hell they want to reguardless of what we and other nuke holding countries think. I believe that this is more of a publicity stunt than anything else to draw attention and possibly more funding to N.Korea. As stupid as he may seem, starting a war where his country will not be able to support itself and he most definitely will lose control of power afterwards is probably not on his agenda.

[03cavPA]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1811

Really makes you want to move to North Korea.

[lyand]

some many idea!

[v10_viper]

Originally Posted by lyand

some many idea!

10-14-2006, 08:48 AM