thoughts on KIA??

[stamar]

Some of the responses are showing really poor reading comprehension.

So, if you didnt understand what I wrote previously why would you understand if I rewrote it?

I took a class on market economics. We studied the auto industry.

You have not. Obviously.

The last poster has some interesting opinions on history. A great deal of what is in it is false. A quote like
" I see no evidence that honda supplied mitsubishi with anything"
Is pointless to respond to. No kidding you dont see any evidence. You dont know of course.
Go ahead and go to borders bookstore. Pick up the history of honda. Pick up the history of japanese motorcycles. Then you will know

You made a lot of comments, based off of google search cut and paste. And so many many of them are incorrect and I dont have time to edit them. Some are containing some facts.

The only thing you have communicated to me though Moppie, is that you dont know. AND that you are interested IN KNOWING about the auto industry, and possibly about the japanese economy. And be knowledgeable as opposed to ignorant.
And I appreciate that much more than some of the other posters so Im spending some of my time responding to you and giving you a reference to read to put the whole picture together.


Its all actually a confusing mess to try and communicate with you in this format. I would need to say a short point, made sure you clearly understood it and then move on.


You also posted that you are beggining research into mitsubishi. A holding company works in a very different method than a western company. Again I must say you have no idea how mitsubishi holding company works, not the current company mitsubishi automobiles. BUT, you still know more than the average person and if you are interested in learning I say go for it.

Honda and toyoda were parts manufacturers for mitsubishi holding company THE HISTORY OF HONDA.

Ok so who was the head of toyoda? It wasnt a MR toyoda? LOLOLOLOLO yes it was. Mr honda and Mr toyoda knew eachother

http://www.amazon.com/Illust-History...e=UTF8&s=books


BOOKS. There you go. For some reason you dont believe me telling whats directly in the book you will have to read it.

If there is anyone out here who has read what I wrote which were just trying to be short direct facts, nothing really to debate
and also read these other posts filled with some thing false many things strange, many opinions basically that could be misleading really I recomend you read those two books Ive referenced or if you are more interested in the history of japanese industry I have other books Id like you to read as well. Some of what I just read through above is close to what I would call trash with some facts cut from web site google.

[Moppie]

From http://world.honda.com/history/ its make it pretty clear how Honda was formed, by Soishiro Honda, a mechanic.

From http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/history/index.html it makes it pretty clear that Sakichi Toyoda founded the Toyota company to manfacture and sell some of his own inventions.

If your refering to his Son Kiichiro Toyoda who founded the Toyota Motor Corp, on the back of his fathers existing bussines, as someone who would have known Soishiro Honda then you might be right. They were contempory, however Kiichiro Toyoda did not start, or found Toyota, only one of its divisions.

[Moppie]

This gives a pretty good break down of how Mitsubishi has been broken up. http://www.mitsubishi.com/e/group/about.html


Note, these are all the offical company historys, so they are pretty acurate in terms of dates and what happened, but anything do to with the after affects of WWII will be distorted.
It was the allies who broke up Mitsubishi, and lots of other Japanese companys, not the Japanese themselves.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by stamar

Some of the responses are showing really poor reading comprehension.

So, if you didn't understand what I wrote previously why would you understand if I rewrote it?

I took a class on market economics. We studied the auto industry.

You have not. Obviously.

You are young, arrogant and IMO a little shit who clearly wants to make this personal.

So excuse me while I make you into a fool, and I will do it all with your first post in this thread.

The problem with understanding i not a comprehension issue at my end, I have spent far longer at university than you ever will, and I can guarantee Iv read and understood much more advanced books than you will find in a market economics course.

Any issue around understanding is entirely your fault.
Your use of language has so far been limited, and your ability to express ideas in a coherent manner seems limited to a high school level.

Allow me to demonstrate.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by stamar

i recomend reading the history of honda because its a very fascinating story.

Honda and Toyota ( toyoda) were born out of the same contract. Both were auto parts suppliers for mitsubishi holding company.

In 1947 mitsubishi holding company did not exist. It was broken down in october 1946.
So while Honda was making piston rings, and selling them to Toyota, and no doubt Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Automotive division, where, and what is this magic contract that Toyota and Honda we're born out of?
It wasn't one with mitsubishi holding company (which your statement implies), and of course while Honda Motors didn't exist, Toyota had been around for 40 years as a company, and 10 years as a automobile manufactorer. So it wasn't born out of this "contract".
Prehaps your refering to a grant from one of the Allies, which were being given out quite freely to any Japanese bussiness that showed promise after WWII.
It would certianly explain how Soishiro Honda was able to go from a humble mechanic, to a small bussiness owner, to a large scale bike manufactor reasonably quickly.
Of course Toyota might have also been given some monetary surport, infact Im certian they would have been.[/quote]

Toyoda wanted to make small cars and honda wanted to make motorized bicycles. So they traded factories.

Oh, your wrong again.
Toyota was ALREADY MAKING CARS.
They didn't start making small cars untill the 60s, after Alec invented the Mini and Honda perfected the concept with the Civi, you know, inventing the mass produced small car.
(the cars they were making were small by US and even European standards, but were NOT considered small in Japan).
Honda

But honda motors made motors, spinning the wrong way.

Thats a nothing statement, there is no right or wrong way for a motor to spin

They were a motorcycle comapny that eventually made motorcycle derived cars. I think the first honda cars came out in the late 60s

Hondas first car came out in 1963, and the only thing in it that was even remotly related to a Motorbike was the small capacity (500cc) high reving engine. But it was an all new, and designed for the car engine (Iv you ever seen one (and Iv seen several) you can tell there is no way it would ever fit on a bike).

I cant see how KIA is actually like either of these companies which started in post ww2 japan in a market where the average income was about $100 a month in todays dollars.

As has already been pretty clearly explained in other posts, Kia is nothing like Honda, but given its Automtive division was started about 30 years after its other business activities, and only 30 years later it is just starting to make a name for itself in the international market, and is doing so by introducing only 1 or 2 of its model range into that market, it is VERY similar to Toyota.

[/quote]
Anyhow my opinion of KIA is that its the butt end. A company so horrid Hyundai drove them out of business.[quote]

Now here's a conclusion based on reasoning that seems to be missing from the post.
Kia has been in trouble in the past, but then so was all of Korean industry for a little while.
Hyundai has a different history again, and comes from a much larger corporation, which gave it more to fall back on, and more resources to draw from. It has done better because its been built on better business decisions. Not becuase Kia is some how "horrid".

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by stamar

Some of the responses are showing really poor reading comprehension.

So, if you didn't understand what I wrote previously why would you understand if I rewrote it?

I took a class on market economics. We studied the auto industry.

You have not. Obviously.

I'm bored, Ill continue with this post as well.

Your right, I have not studied much automotive history, beyond being involved in the industry for a number of years, and having held an interest in it for far longer than you have.

The last poster has some interesting opinions on history. A great deal of what is in it is false.

Any one with even a basic academic, or well read understanding of history knows it is largely opinion. There is very little objective truth in history, despite what you want to believe.

A quote like
" I see no evidence that honda supplied mitsubishi with anything"
Is pointless to respond to. No kidding you dont see any evidence. You dont know of course.

Whats your point? That was all you could pick out of my whole post to attack?
Oh my god I see no evidence because I don't know, because I didn't look that deep?
All you did was complete my sentence.

You made a lot of comments, based off of google search cut and paste. And so many many of them are incorrect and I dont have time to edit them. Some are containing some facts.

So how about pointing out whats wrong? Since you apparently know so much?

I will warn you that all of it came from the manufacturer's own websites, so when your finished correcting me you can go and correct Honda, Toyota and Mitsubishi, I'm sure they'll love to know their entire history is wrong.

As for using Google? So what. Iv been using the internet since the early 90s when it was just a random collection of BBS that you had to dial into directly. I think I know how to sort the BS from the Gold when it comes to finding information.

The only thing you have communicated to me though Moppie, is that you dont know. AND that you are interested IN KNOWING about the auto industry, and possibly about the japanese economy. And be knowledgeable as opposed to ignorant.
And I appreciate that much more than some of the other posters so Im spending some of my time responding to you and giving you a reference to read to put the whole picture together.

Who the Fuck do you think you are calling anyone on this forum ignorant?
You have done nothing to show you have any sound knowledge, or the ability to convey it.

Your posts show a lack of progressive, conclusion driven reasoning.
You have so far been wrong in several of your posts, and seem more interested in trying to lord a very limited intelligence over others, who are, sadly for you, clearly your superiors.

Its all actually a confusing mess to try and communicate with you in this format. I would need to say a short point, made sure you clearly understood it and then move on.

The mess and failure to communicate is your own. It started with your first post in this thread, a laughable pile of false or incomplete information.

You also posted that you are beggining research into mitsubishi. A holding company works in a very different method than a western company. Again I must say you have no idea how mitsubishi holding company works, not the current company mitsubishi automobiles. BUT, you still know more than the average person and if you are interested in learning I say go for it.

I never stated I was beginning research into anything. As for the Mitsubishi holding company, it has not existed since 1946.
Mitsubishi Automotive is currently a division of Mitsubishi heavy industries.

Honda and toyoda were parts manufacturers for mitsubishi holding company THE HISTORY OF HONDA.

So your stating "The History of Honda" as a reference?
If so then you just failed miserably. At the very least you should say its a book WHEN YOU REFERNCE IT, and give the Authors name.

Ok so who was the head of toyoda? It wasnt a MR toyoda? LOLOLOLOLO yes it was. Mr honda and Mr toyoda knew eachother

http://www.amazon.com/Illust-History...e=UTF8&s=books


BOOKS. There you go. For some reason you dont believe me telling whats directly in the book you will have to read it.

First of all you only ever referenced to the Mr Toyoda, which would be the first Mr Toyoda involved in Toyota, which was its founder, who died in 1930.
If you wanted to refer to one of his sons then you needed to be much clearer and state so, or at least give his first name, or DOB and DOD.

If there is anyone out here who has read what I wrote which were just trying to be short direct facts, nothing really to debate
and also read these other posts filled with some thing false many things strange, many opinions basically that could be misleading really I recomend you read those two books Ive referenced or if you are more interested in the history of japanese industry I have other books Id like you to read as well. Some of what I just read through above is close to what I would call trash with some facts cut from web site google.

So basically your still claiming that the company websites for Honda, Toyota, and a number of the Mitsubishi companies are wrong?
That we should read books you finally managed to reference with a link to Amazon (which will get you kicked out of some university papers).
And, just to stick a final foot in you large mouth, your upset about making a whole lot of noise, flinging a whole lot of BS around, and then being questioned on it via a debate.
Debate being something that happens on pretty much every forum on the net.

[blazee]

Thanks for the very informative posts Moppie. It's nice when people take the time to research things, and make informative posts, instead of talking out of their asses, and attempting to BS people, like we often see in the forums.


Please don't be so hard on stamar, I'm sure that he didn't mean any harm by posting inaccurate/misleading information. With all the books he reads, he probably just made a mistake, and got a couple of them mixed up. He looks like a trust worthy guy:

[twospirits]

Wow, I surely missed alot.
Moppie has corrected quite a few of the misleading facts but I will also add the following points.

Originally Posted by stamar

Where did I get my information from? I referenced it, a book called THE HISTORY OF HONDA.

Originally Posted by stamar

I dont have time to write out all the facts but i recomend you read this same book called the history of Honda.

"History of Honda"? hmmm, how appropriate you would continue to mention a book that cannot be found (reference wise) anywhere on the Internet. Not even Amazon.com has an out of print mention of it. Not even the Library of Congress has a listing.You never mentioned who wrote it or what publisher? Why, because it doesn't exist. Then all of a sudden in your last post you give a link to Amazon.com when all this time you have been saying "History Of Honda", not once was it written as "Illustrated Honda History". Don't try to insult our intelligence by implying you meant "Illustrated Honda History".

Originally Posted by stamar

I said I dont know the history of KIA. Everything I said was true they ceased being their own automobile company around 10 years ago. The were bought out by ford ( they produced ford festiva, ford aspire. Ford owned controlling interest, ford owns controlling interest of mazda, Kia makes mazda 121....) when Hyundai bought KIA, that is who they bough it from lol.

Apparantely you don't know much of anyones history. Licensing agreements/joint ventures are one thing, actually controlling stocks of a company is another. Ford did have holdings in Kia (17%) but lost it due to the company's losses were absorbed by existing shareholders. One can easily go to the corporate Kia site and see their past annual and finiancial reports . Therefore it did not have anything to sell. As stated previously, KIA contributed greatly to the Asian financial crisis and was on the brink, and was bought up by Hyundai, Ford did tried to bid for Kia, but dropped out of the second round of bidding. The fact of the matter is that Hyundai did not buy Kia from Ford. Source

Originally Posted by stamar

and then, where is this sidetrack leading? The poster is wondering if they should buy a KIA car. Another poster is describing some abstract connection between KIA improving and Honda Cars who when they reached the us market in the 70s were rusty or something.

Originally Posted by stamar

I spent a lot of time typing in this thread. Im fairly certain some of you benefitted from my education on this subject.

Benefited form what? Misleading facts. yes the thread did get sidetracked, and should have been put back on course, but it has become much bigger than just asking a as simple question. We as Automobile Enthusiasts cannot allow anyone giving misleading statements which you insist on saying are true all based on a non-existant book.

• Honda and Toyota ( toyoda) were born out of the same contract.
• So they traded factories.
• KIA is that its the butt end. A company so horrid hyundai drove them out of business
• It ends with them (Kia) being bought out by ford, and then sold to hyundai

Making such misleading statements is wrong. And correcting them is our main priority at this point.

TS

[stamar]

I am having a serious problem with the forum logging me out because my posts are taking too long. Taking a great deal of time on a busy day

I am going to make a post and edit it several times here

Ive retyped this about 3 times

some of the posts are very strange. If you think I havent read a book then what did I read? I mean, thats a strange fantasy Im not sure how Im supposed to respond to it. Im pretty sure that a lot of this is very strange actually I'm interacting with some people who are entertained pretty differently than I am. But at least have a common interest in the automotive industry which is why Im back to read what you have to say and see if there is anything interesting you came up with. And two of you did.

As I browse through the responses there are things that are interesting to me as well that I should respond to.
Some have some interesting facts. Exact holdings in KIA are cool to correct. If that is what is relevant to you. Its never been interesting to me until this exact moment but Ill mark it for future reference. I mean to say then that Ford was a creditor of KIA, Hyundai paid them as well as 83% of someone else. I think that link corrects a few things that were posted by someone else as well. But now that its straight does it add something to the analysis of facts, thats what i missed. This is 1998 news mind you. I summarized and you have elaborated. I think that is great actually. I think that is worthwhile to read actually. It has some information you didnt point out that is interesting.
Ok I have linked the history of Honda already. Is there something else I can do to help you?

I have also read this book
http://www.amazon.com/Pictorial-Japa...e=UTF8&s=books

These two books I read deal with post ww2 japan in general, honda and toyota specifically. KIA not at all. Pre ww2 toyota very little.

I would not expect you to read books and then come back to the forum and make a post about it.

I have not made a web based research project for the benefit of this thread if I did I would use the same sources as moppie ie I would type history of kia into google and browse what came up.

I would use the wikipedia first though.

So if I reference a book to a forumer Im mostly saying in your own time read it and it will be clearer. I brought up both of those books because you could walk into borders and read them today they are readily available. I've read the history of honda ( thats what its called on the book not illustrated) twice. Its excellent.

A book has more information than a web page. But thats not to say that a web page is incorrect. Theres no link to a book i can give you for your benefit unfortunately.

Ive read this information at honda.com and ive read the history of honda. Well no doubt a book is a great deal longer than a single page although lets compare more a chapter to a page.

Im not directly quoting the actual book either, the physical thing. I could find it in a bookstore though. So for example when I say late 60s when its 1963, or mr toyoda because I didnt write down his first name (LOL) that is not to say the book is incorrect because I assure you its correct, there is just a certain amount of vagueness between when I read it and what Im writing in this forum.

If I didnt remember the date I would say 60s, if I didnt remember the name i would say MR.
I made a post that was correct. It contained the correct facts, and it had my opinion too which was short (" I dont see how you could compare KIA to either of these companies")
I

[edit] I am not getting off more than 1 sentence at a time. I have just now realized something about this forum I never realized before that many users have problems making long posts. I have not even gotten into my point but i will do it in 24 hours from another computer[/edit]

[Dyno247365]

Don't fight with a counterpointer, once they've done it, you're pwned. Some asses once tried to tell me that american animation was better than japanese animation and they kept saying my facts were shit. I still say it's better, considering a lot of Japan's and even Korea's economy centers around Anime to market products. We just make kid's shows and the simpsons...damn I went offtopic, don't mess with counterpointers.

[porscheguy9999]

If this was already said, then never mind. But Kia is a lower quality Hyundai. I dont really like them, but besides the quality and image, I dont have much against them.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by stamar

I am not getting off more than 1 sentence at a time. I have just now realized something about this forum I never realized before that many users have problems making long posts.

moppie didn't seem to have any problems.
another of your unfounded assumptions?

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by stamar

I am having a serious problem with the forum logging me out because my posts are taking too lo................................................ .................................................. ..................................g long posts. I have not even gotten into my point but i will do it in 24 hours from another computer[/edit]

Give up!
Blaming the forum software for your own incompetance does not help you.

You are not the great wealth of Automotive knowledge you thought you were, nor are you more intelligent or somehow smarter than anyone else here.
Your "facts" have been refuted and your opinion has been noted, but its reasoning rejected.

And this is not the first thread its happened in.

Give up or you just make yourself look like even more of a fool than you already do.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by porscheguy9999

I dont really like them, but besides the quality and image, I dont have much against them.

I think thats exactly the angle they want.
As a car enthusiasts we don't really fit into the current export model line up.
However, if we are not put off them in anyway, then chances are people looking more for of an appliance and cheap transport rather than a car, might be attracted to them.

[stamar]

Originally Posted by Dyno247365

Don't fight with a counterpointer, once they've done it, you're pwned. Some asses once tried to tell me that american animation was better than japanese animation and they kept saying my facts were shit. I still say it's better, considering a lot of Japan's and even Korea's economy centers around Anime to market products. We just make kid's shows and the simpsons...damn I went offtopic, don't mess with counterpointers.

lol whats really sad about it is the little clique gets together and starts to flame like its a competition someone can win.

And whats really sad is the three are moderators of some sort. Because in general this is the purpose of a moderator to discourage users that are interested in the forum for weird brow beating, visiting eachothers threads and insulting. Its childish stuff. It suprises me greatly.
I see your point, but what I think about is a reader such as yourself that might really be trying to figure something out.
I mean, that applies to your life about car brands. So I respond and take it at face value if I think it sounds like a reasonable question.

I really doubt anyone read through the second row of moppies posts. It gets really weird, I mean seriously twisted.
I dont get paid to lurk online anymore so I dont have that kind of time. But I dont think its totally weird because there was a time when I did....
Im not going to spend the time to respond to each of the points I think in there that pertain to facts that might be confusing. Mostly because with my online time it would take me several days. I am going to go over some of the things that are interesting. Im sure hell post twice before I have the time to return here